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Old 14th February 2012, 04:26 AM   #1
VANDOO
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Default UNKNOWN DAGGER FOR ID.

HERE IS A UNUSUAL DAGGER FOR DISCUSSION. THE ONLY INFORMATION I HAVE ON IT IS IT IS FROM A COUNTRY IN THE MEDITERRANEAN AREA. IT MUST HAVE HAD SOME SPECIAL USE TO HAVE SUCH AN UNUSUAL FORM OF BLADE.
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Old 14th February 2012, 05:03 AM   #2
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Is that a slot I see towards the blade tip? If so it could be some sort of sewing tool...maybe for sails?
Stu
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Old 14th February 2012, 06:12 PM   #3
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It looks very like the classic "Mediterranian Dirk" but with a stiletto point. Makes sense actualy, a knife edge for utility cutting and a stiletto point for combat. A real bespoke piece and very nice to have.
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Old 14th February 2012, 11:26 PM   #4
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An eating utensil? The point can be used as a skewer (instead of a fork) and the cutting ege is for cutting... Just a guess
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Old 15th February 2012, 09:01 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
Is that a slot I see towards the blade tip? If so it could be some sort of sewing tool...maybe for sails?
Stu
My first thought was the same mate.
A blade to cut the sail-cloth, an awl to make the holes and a hook to pull the yarn through.
Just a guess though.
It's certainly a good looking and quality item. I'd also agree mediterranean. Possibly naval rather than 'fisherman'.

Last edited by Atlantia; 15th February 2012 at 09:53 AM. Reason: because I can't spell 'mediterranean' lol
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Old 15th February 2012, 09:49 AM   #6
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Definately looks European though Barry. You could try the Euro forum?
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Old 16th February 2012, 12:25 AM   #7
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The fluting (or whatever) suggests this is Italian (or maybe French) as they are the main ones who heavily used that sort of decoration - it is also found in furniture. It doth have a Baroque-ish smack to it. A distant variant is the spiral columns of the Vatican altar.

As for the application, if there is a hole in the end it would likely be used for pulling cord, but if not sails then maybe upholstery. If the blade is sharp or has a slightly chisel edge that may give a clue to use.
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Old 16th February 2012, 03:35 PM   #8
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The handle looks like it is made of a cut section of twisted vine (tropical?) more than carved, is it? Is it wood at all?
To me it certainly looks like a specialised tool from around the 1830's, perhaps Italian or Spanish as does the iron decoration indicate.
It certainly belonged to a craftman specialised in a particular job, maybe on mainland or maybe on board of a ship (hence the tropical addition?).
>>>just my humble thoughts on this item<<
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Old 16th February 2012, 06:32 PM   #9
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hello together
Europe for sure!
would tap Italy, but also could be Corsica, a possibility.
however, a beautiful piece!
gruss chregu
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Old 17th February 2012, 06:05 AM   #10
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UNFORTUNATELY ALL I HAVE IS A PICTURE OF THIS KNIFE/TOOL. I SUSPECT THE GRIP IS EITHER CARVED EBONY OR HORN. THE SPOT ON THE BLADE APPEARS TO BE DISCOLORED NOT A HOLE FOR THREADING. NOTE THE GAURD ON ONE SIDE BY THE BLADE. IT IS THERE TO KEEP THE HAND FROM SLIDING DOWN ONTO THE BLADE. IT WOULD APPEAR THIS IS A COMBINATION TOOL FOR PERFORATING HOLES IN SOMETHING REQUIREING A FAIR AMOUNT OF FORCE. IT ALSO HAS THE BLADE FOR CUTTING. WORKING ON SAILS AND RIGGING IS A GOOD SUGGESTION.
THE ITEM IS WELL MADE AND THE WORKMANSHIP DOES REMIND ME OF FRENCH OR ITALIAN WORKMANSHIP. PERHAPS SOMEONE WILL SEE THIS IN THE FUTURE AND KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IT S AND FILL US IN. IN THE MEANTIME ITS FUN TO GUESS.
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Old 17th February 2012, 10:20 AM   #11
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my first thought was an artillery dagger/cannon vent prick. (bombardier's stiletto)
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Old 17th February 2012, 04:11 PM   #12
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This piece is way too fancy to be a rigging knife of any kind, IMO .
It is not a Fid either .

Sailmaker's Palm below .
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Old 17th February 2012, 04:21 PM   #13
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Salaams all ~ My guess is Bull Fighters knife...
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ps In Oman we have bull fighting... but in this case its between two bulls giving each other no more than a headache!!
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Old 9th April 2014, 07:05 AM   #14
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Default Damnable and Dangerous Weapon ! Genoese 1699.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VANDOO
HERE IS A UNUSUAL DAGGER FOR DISCUSSION. THE ONLY INFORMATION I HAVE ON IT IS IT IS FROM A COUNTRY IN THE MEDITERRANEAN AREA. IT MUST HAVE HAD SOME SPECIAL USE TO HAVE SUCH AN UNUSUAL FORM OF BLADE.


Salaams VANDOO ~ I was researching something quite obscure (Genoese Naval Swords) and bumped into the Genoese Knife style you show at # 1. Please see www.sangiorgioaste.com

Solved !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 9th April 2014, 02:07 PM   #15
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Looks like the skewer in a meat carving set.
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Old 9th April 2014, 02:20 PM   #16
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so, what is it?
(i can't read the illustrated page, ibrahim)
(also can't read italian )

the perforated tip does lend itself to some sort of sailor's dagger also used for sail repair and/or fancy knotwork.
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Old 9th April 2014, 03:09 PM   #17
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Hello,

This a Genovese knife "con passacorda", referring to the thin blade tip. It was supposedly indeed used for rigging and knots.

The slit in the blade, or sometimes in the tang when the handle unscrews from the blade, is known as the "cruna" and basically makes a larger threading needle.

That's a wonderful book by the way with excellent information, but in Italian. I will look up the specific info when I get home tonight.

Here is a page from "Dizionari Terminologici - Armi Bianche dal Mediebo all'Eta Moderna" (Florence, 1980) for additional reference. See F and G, terms, 10 and 26.

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Old 9th April 2014, 05:07 PM   #18
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I got a reasonable translation by pressing the little flag top right on the website reference but anyway this is not only an excellent matelots weapon/ rigging tool but became famous as a dastardly dagger up the back alleyways in Genoa on dark nights...and the book goes on to describe its reputation and prohibition as an illegal blade..I cant think why...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 9th April 2014, 05:22 PM   #19
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Yes, they do seem to be wonderful little trouble makers.
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Old 9th April 2014, 05:38 PM   #20
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THIS IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE FORUM BEING A GOOD POINT OF REFRENCE ONE NEVER KNOWS WHAT ONE MAY FIND IN OLD POSTS . THE ANSWERS TO THIS QUESTION NOW COME TO LIGHT A LITTLE OVER 2 YEARS AND 2 MONTHS LATER.
FORUM MEMBERS GUESSES, VAGUE MEMORIES AND USE OF LOGIC CAME CLOSE IN SOME CASES BACK THEN BUT NOW WE HAVE SOLID REFRENCE AND INFORMATION AT LAST. SO POSTING A PICTURE OF A UNUSUAL ITEM THAT YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT CAN BRING ANSWERS HERE. THANKS FOR THE ANSWER. IBRAHIIM
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Old 10th April 2014, 07:06 AM   #21
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Default Coltello Passacorda.

Salaams ...
Great work Emanuel ...thanks VANDOO... All this is now preserved in library...all hard wired in ! Nice publication too.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 10th April 2014, 04:21 PM   #22
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Well done Ibrahiim!!!! You really nailed this one!!!!!
What outstanding research, thank you for entering this. While everybody had great observations, I couldn't fathom what in the world this was, and never seen one before.
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Old 10th April 2014, 06:53 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Well done Ibrahiim!!!! You really nailed this one!!!!!
What outstanding research, thank you for entering this. While everybody had great observations, I couldn't fathom what in the world this was, and never seen one before.
Thanks Jim, Pure chance as it happens as I was looking at Genoese links possibly tied to the Nimcha conundrum and it just appeared. VANDOO had placed such a clear picture it had stuck in my mind from a couple of years ago...I thought it was a bullfighters weapon..ha!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 10th April 2014, 07:42 PM   #24
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A great thread! Good work! fascinating!

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Old 10th April 2014, 08:50 PM   #25
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Hi Ibrahiim,
Nicely done and well remembered. I'm sure there are more than a few Forum members, mostly of a certain age group , who are rather envious of your capacity for recollection.
My Regards,
Norman.
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Old 11th April 2014, 06:53 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman McCormick
Hi Ibrahiim,
Nicely done and well remembered. I'm sure there are more than a few Forum members, mostly of a certain age group , who are rather envious of your capacity for recollection.
My Regards,
Norman.
Salaams Norman... I've forgotten more stuff than I can remember ...where was I ?? er....

Pleasure to help...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

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Old 11th April 2014, 04:12 PM   #27
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Here are a few relevant pages from "Il Coltello Genovese" Most of the illustrated examples seem to date from the 17-18th centuries.

The text is basically descriptive. I can provide rough translations but I'm sure there are native Italian speakers on the forum that might help.

Emanuel
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Old 11th April 2014, 04:13 PM   #28
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p2
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Old 11th April 2014, 04:15 PM   #29
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p3
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Old 11th April 2014, 04:16 PM   #30
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