Pics: Snake-like Curves

ganjawulung · 1st June 2007, 07:34 AM

Hi All,
Forgive me, I disturb you again and again, with pictures. What I can share with you is only in pictures. Only pictures, and just only collection. Thank you.. The second snake-like curves spear, supposed to be Pengging style luk. Pengging is a period before the beginning of Mataram period... The style of swimming snake?

Ganjawulung

Alam Shah · 1st June 2007, 08:52 AM

Nice, I've seen Pengging examples from Hidayat's collection, (in pictures only)

. On a personal level, although these might look intimidating, I find these blades and spear points to be ineffective as weapons. Perhaps mostly used as ceremonial?

Marcokeris · 1st June 2007, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Hi All,
Forgive me, I disturb you again and again, with pictures. What I can share with you is only in pictures. Only pictures, and just only collection. Thank you.. The second snake-like curves spear, supposed to be Pengging style luk. Pengging is a period before the beginning of Mataram period... The style of swimming snake?

Ganjawulung

dear Ganja
Why disturb? Is a pleasure for eyes and mind!

Mans · 1st June 2007, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Nice, I've seen Pengging examples from Hidayat's collection, (in pictures only)

. On a personal level, although these might look intimidating, I find these blades and spear points to be ineffective as weapons. Perhaps mostly used as ceremonial?

Hi friends....

Just want to join, here I posted another keris with luk which called "Rengkol" as Gonjowulungs spears.

And I think the keris with luk still can be used for weapon. In my mind, the keris with luk more suitable for weapon because it can make wider rip on body/skin when it used to stuck. That because from first luk at the point to bottom side made more wider. When we stuck the keris to the body, every luk will make wider rip on the skin.

Different with straight keris which has simple form. But stright keris more focus to the target and make a dirrect stab. In the other hand, the keris with luk look stronger/rubbery because it has luk which seems like a spring when we used to stuck. I think it shown that the mPu on past period had thought about weapon structures, strength, and capabilities, etc...

Thats just my opinion

Alam Shah · 1st June 2007, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mans

... And I think the keris with luk still can be used for weapon. In my mind, the keris with luk more suitable for weapon because it can make wider rip on body/skin when it used to stuck. That because from first luk at the point to bottom side made more wider. When we stuck the keris to the body, every luk will make wider rip on the skin.

Different with straight keris which has simple form. But stright keris more focus to the target and make a dirrect stab. In the other hand, the keris with luk look stronger/rubbery because it has luk which seems like a spring when we used to stuck. I think it shown that the mPu on past period had thought about weapon structures, strength, and capabilities, etc...

Thats just my opinion

Hi, I'm speaking specifically to Pengging style of luks (luk Rengkol / Sarpa Nyander) which is exaggerated.

Technically, with its slender profile, I doubt it makes an effective weapon.
In a one-on-one encounter, an opponent could possibly deflect an attack quite effectively, with capability to disarm the keris wielder, with a piece of cloth/clothing.

When facing multiple opponents, this type of blade tends to get stuck when stabbed. Retraction might be slower, worse if it get stuck in between the victim's ribs. If targeted at the lower abdomen area, it might not penetrate the opponent's 'ikat pinggang' or the blade might 'buckle' due to its 'fragile' looking nature.

It might be more for aesthetics reasons rather than practicality, imho.

My question: Where lies the strength of these Pengging-specific luk blades?

Alengka's Prince · 1st June 2007, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Hi All,
Forgive me, I disturb you again and again, with pictures. What I can share with you is only in pictures. Only pictures, and just only collection. Thank you.. The second snake-like curves spear, supposed to be Pengging style luk. Pengging is a period before the beginning of Mataram period... The style of swimming snake?

Ganjawulung

Hii Ganja (Pak Jimmy),
Yes correct!! that you were disturbing me again and again, as you have some Rare & Nice Pengging Tumbaks, but you just show them to me. You never allow me to offer some "mahar" on even only one of them. He..he..he.

Sometime it becomes an addictive being "disturbed" by such this.

Thank you Ganja,

Alengka's Prince

ganjawulung · 1st June 2007, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Nice, I've seen Pengging examples from Hidayat's collection, (in pictures only)

. On a personal level, although these might look intimidating, I find these blades and spear points to be ineffective as weapons. Perhaps mostly used as ceremonial?

Dear Shahrial,
What I learned from Javanese tangguh, is mainly "style that differ from other period". So it was a matter of identity. That is the most important. From the style of weapon, and of course the specific style of sheath, one can differ where did the pusaka's holder from... (IMO, and no "direct source")

To learn tangguh, is not a study of just reading. But also seeing, looking, watching carefully thousands of blades with different styles. After "jam terbang" (Oops, flying hours? Help my English, please...) advanced, then you may be able to know -- or at least to predict -- from with style.

Pengging, very special in luks. Thin like Majapahit style, but good iron, good "garap" (working), although only for short period... (I will add more, soon)

Ganjawulung

Alam Shah · 1st June 2007, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Shahrial,
What I learned from Javanese tangguh, is mainly "style that differ from other period". So it was a matter of identity. That is the most important. From the style of weapon, and of course the specific style of sheath, one can differ where did the pusaka's holder from... (IMO, and no "direct source")

Thank you for your input.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

To learn tangguh, is not a study of just reading. But also seeing, looking, watching carefully thousands of blades with different styles. After "jam terbang" (Oops, flying hours? Help my English, please...) advanced, then you may be able to know -- or at least to predict -- from with style.

I do not learn tangguh or claim to learn. I'm just pointing out the stylistic differences compared with pieces from other period. Those that I've seen had been identified by those whom are familiar with tangguh. So I'm not guessing, in that sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Pengging, very special in luks. Thin like Majapahit style, but good iron, good "garap" (working), although only for short period... (I will add more, soon)...

Hi Ganja, I agree Pengging does have special luk form... that part I've seen from Hidayat's pieces. It may have whatever you've said, but how does it fare physically?

My earlier comment is just my personal observation and opinion.
My opinion still stands, unless it could be persuaded otherwise.

ganjawulung · 1st June 2007, 04:33 PM

Dear Shahrial (part 2),
I like to have a keris from "short period" tangguh, like from Kesultanan Pajang (1551-1582) and of course from Pengging period (after Kesultanan Demak 1480-1550) and before 1582 Mataram Period. Usually, the short period has a very specific type. Like Pajang, has a special type in the base of two sogokan. (I can't say it with word. One must see the blade).

Pengging, has a "luk rengkol" with good iron, and slim model. The first spear in the picture above, is very strong. (With a "gigir sapi" or say it, back bone in the middle of the blade), strong enough to stab somebody. The Pengging style (picture 2), is also strong although it looks slim (but not to thin, with good iron).

Are those spears only for ceremonial purpose? I don't know. But in my opinion, the slim blade is quite strong to stab somebody... You will try?

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung · 1st June 2007, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

dear Ganja
Why disturb? Is a pleasure for eyes and mind!

Thank you Marco,

Knowledge on keris is not only reading or making the new keris and sell it to other person with certain good price, but also seeing as many kerises possible. Keris is like the book itself. We can not learn tangguh (style, based on the period the making of the keris) from just reading books. You must see the details with your own eyes...

ganjawulung · 1st June 2007, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alengka's Prince

Hii Ganja (Pak Jimmy),
Yes correct!! that you were disturbing me again and again, as you have some Rare & Nice Pengging Tumbaks, but you just show them to me. You never allow me to offer some "mahar" on even only one of them. He..he..he.

Sometime it becomes an addictive being "disturbed" by such this.

Alengka's Prince

Oh, no... Not allowed to an Alengka's Prince. This Pengging spear belongs to Ayodhya's Prince.. (Just kidding). Your're welcome to see my new collection next week. That's what I have. Just collection... And I will disturb you again and again with pictures...

Ganjawulung

Alam Shah · 1st June 2007, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Shahrial (part 2),
I like to have a keris from "short period" tangguh, like from Kesultanan Pajang (1551-1582) and of course from Pengging period (after Kesultanan Demak 1480-1550) and before 1582 Mataram Period. Usually, the short period has a very specific type. Like Pajang, has a special type in the base of two sogokan. (I can't say it with word. One must see the blade).

The short period is probably the reason why there isn't enough time to create more styles... Maybe, if it's not too much to ask, could you share with us, in pictures, maybe we can learn something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Pengging, has a "luk rengkol" with good iron, and slim model. The first spear in the picture above, is very strong. (With a "gigir sapi" or say it, back bone in the middle of the blade), strong enough to stab somebody. The Pengging style (picture 2), is also strong although it looks slim (but not to thin, with good iron).

Are those spears only for ceremonial purpose? I don't know. But in my opinion, the slim blade is quite strong to stab somebody... You will try?

Ganjawulung

Maybe you could ship it over and I'll try stabbing myself with it. If you don't hear from me, hmmm... I might be gone, otherwise, your blade might be damaged.

ganjawulung · 1st June 2007, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

...Maybe you could ship it over and I'll try stabbing myself with it. If you don't hear from me, hmmm... I might be gone, otherwise, your blade might be damaged.

Ha, ha, ha, but I wouldn't ship it to you...

Alam Shah · 1st June 2007, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Ha, ha, ha, but I wouldn't ship it to you...

Just kidding ya... don't take it to heart, ok.

I prefer constructive opinions... You have very nice pieces. The 'Pengging' pieces are not many and hard to come by (real ones that is).

I do welcome more info on 'Pengging' period pieces.

ganjawulung · 1st June 2007, 05:10 PM

Dear Shahrial and All,

These pictures below, showing spear point of tangguh Pajajaran (The Hindhu Kingdom, the ancestor of Islamic Kingdom of Cirebon). It wears dhapur (people called it) "kuntul ngantuk" (sleepy bird, a kind of paddy field bird with long beak). Tangguh Pajajaran, usually has a good iron, good pamor (Pajajaran Kingdom has good relation -- if I'm not mistaken -- with Portuguese). But not Pajajaran awal (in the beginning of Pajajaran), which usually not quite good iron. Nearly budo iron in kudi and kujang...

I don't know whether you see a "raja gundala" in this Pajajaran spear or not.. It was formerly owned by a dukun (practitioner) in Central Java. And the dhukun had died, his son sold the spear to me...

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung · 1st June 2007, 05:18 PM

Dear Shahrial and All,

Want more? This is a very humble piece, a spear which (supposed) bears tangguh Mataram (Islam, not old Mataram Hindhu) period between 1582-1749. The dhapur is "korowelang", a kind name of lokal snake...

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung · 1st June 2007, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mans

Hi friends....

Just want to join, here I posted another keris with luk which called "Rengkol" as Gonjowulungs spears.

Wah, Mas Hidayat,
I am very very interested in the "kelengan" (black only) keris. The garap is so nice. From which tangguh, mas?

Ganjawulung

Alam Shah · 1st June 2007, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Shahrial and All,

Want more? This is a very humble piece, a spear which (supposed) bears tangguh Mataram (Islam, not old Mataram Hindhu) period between 1582-1749. The dhapur is "korowelang", a kind name of lokal snake...

Ganjawulung

Beautiful tombak. My kind of piece... would love to see more.

ganjawulung · 1st June 2007, 05:40 PM

Dear Shahrial and All,
This piece, is from tangguh Cirebon, almost the same period of Demak. (Demak 1480-1550). Dhapur trisula. Many pusakas in Cirebon, are tombaks and kudi or kujang of Hindhu Pajajaran. This is one of the popular model of Cirebonese trisula (three points spear). They have also, dwisula (two points spear). Hope no too much. Sorry for disturbing you...

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 1st June 2007, 09:45 PM

These are quite unusual and attractive forms, Ganja.

Could you oblige with a 90 degree close up of the metuk of each of your Pengging tombak, and a 90 degree close up of a section of the blade?

I would appreciate it if the metuk could be photographed without the landhean, so that the first section of the pesi can be seen.

I apologise for lodging this request with you, and hope it does not cause you too much trouble.

ganjawulung · 2nd June 2007, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

These are quite unusual and attractive forms, Ganja.

Could you oblige with a 90 degree close up of the metuk of each of your Pengging tombak, and a 90 degree close up of a section of the blade?

I would appreciate it if the metuk could be photographed without the landhean, so that the first section of the pesi can be seen.

I apologise for lodging this request with you, and hope it does not cause you too much trouble.

Dear Alan,
Hope these following pictures will answer your request. The first spear, I suppose not from tangguh Pengging, but the luks are pengging-like style. Unfortunate, the first one was waxed in the landeyan, so I could not open it. But the Pengging spear, I am showing you with pleasure in these pictures.

Ganjawulung

Mans · 2nd June 2007, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Wah, Mas Hidayat,
I am very very interested in the "kelengan" (black only) keris. The garap is so nice. From which tangguh, mas?

Ganjawulung

Thanks, Pak Ganjawulung.
Actually me my self not too sure about the tangguh of my keris

.
So, would you please give me an advice. Did it the Pengging keris too ?
Here I send more pictures.
Thanks.

Raden Usman Djogja · 2nd June 2007, 10:39 AM

pengging or pakubuanan???

ganjawulung · 3rd June 2007, 02:32 AM

Dear Mr Hidayat and All,

Tangguh is not a certainty. The word itself shows, that the meaning of "nangguh" (in keris term) is "guessing the period of making, based on specific details of the keris or spear"). If I say: "My keris or spear bears tangguh Pajajaran or Pengging, or Majapahit", once must be understood to as "supposed to be made in Pajajaran period" or possibly, "supposed to have Pajajaran style,". Many kerises, supposed with certain tangguh, actually was made in the different period after.

From time to time, "knowledge" on tangguh is an oral and visual knowledge. One learns (or knows) tangguh, from seeing blades or spears. Sometimes from written opinion in the past, but really difficult to imagine the reality, without seeing examples. What I've known about tangguh, also seeing from thousands of kerises from hundreds of keris owners. Either they were keris collectors, or royal family (kerabat keraton), or at least from people which has collection of old heirlooms. You may find such source in Surakarta (Solo) or Yogyakarta.

"Nangguh duwung" (guessing the period of making the keris), is always debatable. In my experience, other people can be other opinion on tangguh. But at least, there are certain compromises in specific details, like specific luks, the shape of ganja, the shape of kembang kacang, the sogokan (pajang style, if I'm not mistaken, has a specific form of 'bawang sebungkul' -- form of sogokan base in the keris, not form of pamor --), and tangguh pengging with very specific luks usually (not certain) not more than five luks.

Some Mataram style, has rengkol luks too. (See pictures below, spears supposed to be from tangguh Mataram Senopaten, or Senopaten style at least). One decides tangguh, also from the iron of the blade. Tangguh Sedayu (actually, Sedayu is the noble name of empu Supamandrangi in Majapahit period or he wore name Empu Pitrang in Blambangan. Sedayu, very wellknown of its specific 'black' iron which is only known by seeing it.

Like Pengging, was not a period of a kingdom. Pengging was only a Kadipaten in the period of Demak Islamic Kingdom. Pengging under Ki Ageng Pengging (formerly Ki Kebo Kenanga), disobeyed the King of Demak as a result of 'different aliran of Islam' with Demak -- see 'stories' on Syech Siti Djenar -- and Pajang period, is a very short Kingdom after Demak, but just before Mataram (Sutowijoyo, or Panembahan Senopati).

From which tangguh? Let's guessing your keris, afterwards...

Ganjawulung

Mans · 3rd June 2007, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Mr Hidayat and All,

Tangguh is not a certainty. The word itself shows, that the meaning of "nangguh" (in keris term) is "guessing the period of making, based on specific details of the keris or spear").......
........
From which tangguh? Let's guessing your keris, afterwards...

Ganjawulung

Actually I still waiting for your expertise regarding my keris, Pak Ganjawulung.
Raden Usman had gave his opinion (thanks), and perhaps it can be a Pengging or Pakubuwanan keris. But I'm not sure, because the ricikans form of my keris not shown the Pengging keris. I think the Greneng and Jenggot too sharp and the ada-ada also sharp too for Pengging

.

ganjawulung · 3rd June 2007, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mans

Actually I still waiting for your expertise regarding my keris, Pak Ganjawulung.
Raden Usman had gave his opinion (thanks), and perhaps it can be a Pengging or Pakubuwanan keris. But I'm not sure, because the ricikans form of my keris not shown the Pengging keris. I think the Greneng and Jenggot too sharp and the ada-ada also sharp too for Pengging

.

k

The luk's style, is pengging style. Very wavy. But if you see the details, you will find the 'strong' characteristics of "not tangguh pengging". Details of "rong dha nunut" (often erroneously spelled as "rondo nunut") or double greneng in the keris' tail, plus the complete ricikan/details in the gandhik -- see, there are "janggut" and "jenggot" on the "sekar kacang", clearly believed to be "Empu Kasa Style" or at least Madurese style.

"Rong dha Nunut" or double greneng, means "two dha above the greneng". Dha, is the 12th character of Caraka Script (ha, na, cha, ra, ka, da, ta, sa, wa, la, pa, dha, ja, ya, nya... etc). The form of one greneng, is "dha" in Caraka script. And "nunut" is "to go with someone, for instant if someone invite you to go with his car together...) Please don't spell it as "rondo nunut" or "I go together with a widow", or "The widow is living with me...". About this, of course Mas Mans Hidayat already knows well.

Many Mataram style kerises bear the complete ricikan like "Kasa's style" or Madurese style. Look also my "Kalabendu" luk 29 in the other thread. There are also double greneng, or "rong dha nunut". It supposed, that the empu of the Kalabendu keris, was Madurese origin.

About your keris, is quite embarassing. Because, the "garap" or work of art, is very fine. With kruwingan on both side of the blade, from "sor-soran" (keris base) to the point of the keris. Like many Mataram kerises. The iron, also embarassingly good.

Overall, the "garap" quality of this keris is excellent. But, I guessed, that this is a "nom-noman" or "nem-neman" keris. Kerises which were made in the Mataram era (1582-1789) and after -- until now, usually called as "keris nem-neman". Please, correct me if I'm mistaken, Mr Hidayat...

Ganjawulung

Raden Usman Djogja · 3rd June 2007, 10:57 PM

dear Gonjo,

the borderline between nem-neman and sepuh may be vary. to people who favor majapahit will consider keris made afterwards as nem-neman. to people who favor mataram will consider mataram kerises as tangguh sepuh.

to me, if and only if, the date of keris made is younger than my birthday will be considered as nem-neman. it relates to my dream. instead of as part of history, I want to watch keris as a part of art which is still being developped by society. Whenever keris becomes a part of history, so does javanese.

anyway, in discussion, I will follow the borderline (nem-neman v. sepuh)accepted by most discussants, "ngeluk practice".

ganjawulung · 4th June 2007, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

...the borderline between nem-neman and sepuh may be vary. to people who favor majapahit will consider keris made afterwards as nem-neman. to people who favor mataram will consider mataram kerises as tangguh sepuh.

to me, if and only if, the date of keris made is younger than my birthday will be considered as nem-neman. it relates to my dream. instead of as part of history, I want to watch keris as a part of art which is still being developped by society. Whenever keris becomes a part of history, so does javanese.

Many thing always debatable in this keris world. Here yes, and There no. It is no wonder. Like Yogyakarta and Surakarta for instant, in the neighbouring city but "opposing each other" in the past, often found contradictory. In Wayang play, Arjuna played by women dancer in Solo, but by men in Yogya. Modern kerises developped very quick and advanced in Solo, but very very slow in Yogya. And in many cultural aspects, you'll see contradictories between Yogya and Solo. It is quite dikotomic. Although only 64 km apart...

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 4th June 2007, 09:38 AM

Thanks very much for those pics, Ganja.

Sorry it took me a few days to get back to this thread. I was involved in sporting competition over the weekend.

Pengging is a problematical tangguh. I've seen a number of keris that have been identified as Pengging by people whose opinion I must respect, but never two keris the same. The concensus of opinion seems to indicate that what I show below are the dominant characteristics of tangguh Pengging, but getting two knowledgeable people to agree that a particular keris is Pengging seems to be asking for a lot.

Characteristics of a keris of tangguh Pengging:

Tanting:- light

Besi:- fine grained and dense

Pamor:- a rough distinct grain that sometimes runs across the blade rather than parrallel with the edges

Baja:- middle quality, correctly forged and heat-treated.

Pawakan:- the cross section is like rotan; some keris have kruwingan; the wanda (sorry, I cannot give an adequate English word) is a haunted feeling.

Gonjo:-sirah cecak very finely pointed, but sometimes rounded, gulu meled is very long, cross section of gonjo is rounded

Gandhik:- large, well proportioned, but rather short.

Blumbangan:- boto rubuh (fallen brick), deep and wide

Sogokan:- wide, deep, round bottomed and sides undercut

Ada-ada:- small and not to a sharp ridge

Kruwingan:- deep and continuing to the point (where kruwingan exists)

Luk:- very deep , steep curves; these curves are very different to those found in all other keris.

Wadidang:- a long deep curve that starts suddenly.

The three most respected ahli keris whom I have known during my life were all in agreement that these are the characteristics of a Pengging keris, however, getting universal agreement from them that a specific blade was Pengging was an entirely different matter.

Probably the major problem that tangguh presents is that in recent years collectors and dealers have wanted to apply it to classes of keris that it was never intended for, and the result is that now we have a very great deal of confusion.

Personally, I am extremely reluctant to be at all definite in respect of tangguh from any photographs. Even the very best, top quality studio photographs in hardcopy can be misleading, to try to play the tangguh game from internet photos is something that is simply beyond my ability. Yeah, something like an old, degraded Segaluh, I'm prepared to give a qualified opinion on, but most other classifications, I would want the bare blade in my hand before I'd be prepared to venture an opinion.You cannot feel the weight and balance from a photo, and you cannot feel the material. You cannot look at the weld joint where the pamor meets the steel core, and see what sort of welding has been done. Plus 100 other things you cannot do from a photo. As Ganjawulung has already pointed out, you need to handle thousands of blades under respected guidance before you can get a feel for tangguh, you cannot learn it from books. I don't believe it is possible to give positive tangguh opinions from photos, either.And tombak are 100 times more difficult than keris.

I have heard the joking comment in Jawa that tangguh was invented to give men something to talk about.

ganjawulung · 5th June 2007, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have heard the joking comment in Jawa that tangguh was invented to give men something to talk about.

Which Jawa? Solo?

1st June 2007, 07:34 AM	#1
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Pics: Snake-like Curves Hi All, Forgive me, I disturb you again and again, with pictures. What I can share with you is only in pictures. Only pictures, and just only collection. Thank you.. The second snake-like curves spear, supposed to be Pengging style luk. Pengging is a period before the beginning of Mataram period... The style of swimming snake? Ganjawulung Attached Images

1st June 2007, 05:10 PM	#15
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Tangguh Pajajaran Dear Shahrial and All, These pictures below, showing spear point of tangguh Pajajaran (The Hindhu Kingdom, the ancestor of Islamic Kingdom of Cirebon). It wears dhapur (people called it) "kuntul ngantuk" (sleepy bird, a kind of paddy field bird with long beak). Tangguh Pajajaran, usually has a good iron, good pamor (Pajajaran Kingdom has good relation -- if I'm not mistaken -- with Portuguese). But not Pajajaran awal (in the beginning of Pajajaran), which usually not quite good iron. Nearly budo iron in kudi and kujang... I don't know whether you see a "raja gundala" in this Pajajaran spear or not.. It was formerly owned by a dukun (practitioner) in Central Java. And the dhukun had died, his son sold the spear to me... Ganjawulung Attached Images

1st June 2007, 05:18 PM	#16
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Tangguh Mataram Dear Shahrial and All, Want more? This is a very humble piece, a spear which (supposed) bears tangguh Mataram (Islam, not old Mataram Hindhu) period between 1582-1749. The dhapur is "korowelang", a kind name of lokal snake... Ganjawulung Attached Images

1st June 2007, 05:40 PM	#19
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Tangguh Cirebon Dear Shahrial and All, This piece, is from tangguh Cirebon, almost the same period of Demak. (Demak 1480-1550). Dhapur trisula. Many pusakas in Cirebon, are tombaks and kudi or kujang of Hindhu Pajajaran. This is one of the popular model of Cirebonese trisula (three points spear). They have also, dwisula (two points spear). Hope no too much. Sorry for disturbing you... Ganjawulung Attached Images

3rd June 2007, 02:32 AM	#24
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Dear Mr Hidayat and All, Tangguh is not a certainty. The word itself shows, that the meaning of "nangguh" (in keris term) is "guessing the period of making, based on specific details of the keris or spear"). If I say: "My keris or spear bears tangguh Pajajaran or Pengging, or Majapahit", once must be understood to as "supposed to be made in Pajajaran period" or possibly, "supposed to have Pajajaran style,". Many kerises, supposed with certain tangguh, actually was made in the different period after. From time to time, "knowledge" on tangguh is an oral and visual knowledge. One learns (or knows) tangguh, from seeing blades or spears. Sometimes from written opinion in the past, but really difficult to imagine the reality, without seeing examples. What I've known about tangguh, also seeing from thousands of kerises from hundreds of keris owners. Either they were keris collectors, or royal family (kerabat keraton), or at least from people which has collection of old heirlooms. You may find such source in Surakarta (Solo) or Yogyakarta. "Nangguh duwung" (guessing the period of making the keris), is always debatable. In my experience, other people can be other opinion on tangguh. But at least, there are certain compromises in specific details, like specific luks, the shape of ganja, the shape of kembang kacang, the sogokan (pajang style, if I'm not mistaken, has a specific form of 'bawang sebungkul' -- form of sogokan base in the keris, not form of pamor --), and tangguh pengging with very specific luks usually (not certain) not more than five luks. Some Mataram style, has rengkol luks too. (See pictures below, spears supposed to be from tangguh Mataram Senopaten, or Senopaten style at least). One decides tangguh, also from the iron of the blade. Tangguh Sedayu (actually, Sedayu is the noble name of empu Supamandrangi in Majapahit period or he wore name Empu Pitrang in Blambangan. Sedayu, very wellknown of its specific 'black' iron which is only known by seeing it. Like Pengging, was not a period of a kingdom. Pengging was only a Kadipaten in the period of Demak Islamic Kingdom. Pengging under Ki Ageng Pengging (formerly Ki Kebo Kenanga), disobeyed the King of Demak as a result of 'different aliran of Islam' with Demak -- see 'stories' on Syech Siti Djenar -- and Pajang period, is a very short Kingdom after Demak, but just before Mataram (Sutowijoyo, or Panembahan Senopati). From which tangguh? Let's guessing your keris, afterwards... Ganjawulung Attached Images

1st June 2007, 08:52 AM	#2
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Nice, I've seen Pengging examples from Hidayat's collection, (in pictures only) . On a personal level, although these might look intimidating, I find these blades and spear points to be ineffective as weapons. Perhaps mostly used as ceremonial?

1st June 2007, 04:33 PM	#9
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Dear Shahrial (part 2), I like to have a keris from "short period" tangguh, like from Kesultanan Pajang (1551-1582) and of course from Pengging period (after Kesultanan Demak 1480-1550) and before 1582 Mataram Period. Usually, the short period has a very specific type. Like Pajang, has a special type in the base of two sogokan. (I can't say it with word. One must see the blade). Pengging, has a "luk rengkol" with good iron, and slim model. The first spear in the picture above, is very strong. (With a "gigir sapi" or say it, back bone in the middle of the blade), strong enough to stab somebody. The Pengging style (picture 2), is also strong although it looks slim (but not to thin, with good iron). Are those spears only for ceremonial purpose? I don't know. But in my opinion, the slim blade is quite strong to stab somebody... You will try? Ganjawulung

1st June 2007, 09:45 PM	#20
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	These are quite unusual and attractive forms, Ganja. Could you oblige with a 90 degree close up of the metuk of each of your Pengging tombak, and a 90 degree close up of a section of the blade? I would appreciate it if the metuk could be photographed without the landhean, so that the first section of the pesi can be seen. I apologise for lodging this request with you, and hope it does not cause you too much trouble.

2nd June 2007, 10:39 AM	#23
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	pengging or pakubuanan???

3rd June 2007, 10:57 PM	#27
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	dear Gonjo, the borderline between nem-neman and sepuh may be vary. to people who favor majapahit will consider keris made afterwards as nem-neman. to people who favor mataram will consider mataram kerises as tangguh sepuh. to me, if and only if, the date of keris made is younger than my birthday will be considered as nem-neman. it relates to my dream. instead of as part of history, I want to watch keris as a part of art which is still being developped by society. Whenever keris becomes a part of history, so does javanese. anyway, in discussion, I will follow the borderline (nem-neman v. sepuh)accepted by most discussants, "ngeluk practice".

4th June 2007, 09:38 AM	#29
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Thanks very much for those pics, Ganja. Sorry it took me a few days to get back to this thread. I was involved in sporting competition over the weekend. Pengging is a problematical tangguh. I've seen a number of keris that have been identified as Pengging by people whose opinion I must respect, but never two keris the same. The concensus of opinion seems to indicate that what I show below are the dominant characteristics of tangguh Pengging, but getting two knowledgeable people to agree that a particular keris is Pengging seems to be asking for a lot. Characteristics of a keris of tangguh Pengging: Tanting:- light Besi:- fine grained and dense Pamor:- a rough distinct grain that sometimes runs across the blade rather than parrallel with the edges Baja:- middle quality, correctly forged and heat-treated. Pawakan:- the cross section is like rotan; some keris have kruwingan; the wanda (sorry, I cannot give an adequate English word) is a haunted feeling. Gonjo:-sirah cecak very finely pointed, but sometimes rounded, gulu meled is very long, cross section of gonjo is rounded Gandhik:- large, well proportioned, but rather short. Blumbangan:- boto rubuh (fallen brick), deep and wide Sogokan:- wide, deep, round bottomed and sides undercut Ada-ada:- small and not to a sharp ridge Kruwingan:- deep and continuing to the point (where kruwingan exists) Luk:- very deep , steep curves; these curves are very different to those found in all other keris. Wadidang:- a long deep curve that starts suddenly. The three most respected ahli keris whom I have known during my life were all in agreement that these are the characteristics of a Pengging keris, however, getting universal agreement from them that a specific blade was Pengging was an entirely different matter. Probably the major problem that tangguh presents is that in recent years collectors and dealers have wanted to apply it to classes of keris that it was never intended for, and the result is that now we have a very great deal of confusion. Personally, I am extremely reluctant to be at all definite in respect of tangguh from any photographs. Even the very best, top quality studio photographs in hardcopy can be misleading, to try to play the tangguh game from internet photos is something that is simply beyond my ability. Yeah, something like an old, degraded Segaluh, I'm prepared to give a qualified opinion on, but most other classifications, I would want the bare blade in my hand before I'd be prepared to venture an opinion.You cannot feel the weight and balance from a photo, and you cannot feel the material. You cannot look at the weld joint where the pamor meets the steel core, and see what sort of welding has been done. Plus 100 other things you cannot do from a photo. As Ganjawulung has already pointed out, you need to handle thousands of blades under respected guidance before you can get a feel for tangguh, you cannot learn it from books. I don't believe it is possible to give positive tangguh opinions from photos, either.And tombak are 100 times more difficult than keris. I have heard the joking comment in Jawa that tangguh was invented to give men something to talk about.