20th century keris?

[NotoriousCal]

Happy New Year group, can I have help understanding what I'm looking at? I don't see a pamor.



Thanks

[Ian]

Cal:

This being a keris, I am transferring it over to the Keris Forum.

Ian.

[David]

Cal, this is a Bali keris and therefore Indonesian and discussion belongs in the Keris Forum for this so i am transferring it over there.
I see pamor fairly clearly. However, this blade seems like it is a bit overdue for a cleaning and a re-staining with warangan. What you must understand about keris is that pamor patterns are raised on the surface of a keris through acid washing and treating with warangan, a mixture of arsenic and lime juice. The pamor on this Bali keris is merely faded over time and it needs a new treatment.
You should also keep in mind that not all Indonesian keris carry pamor. These keris are referred to as "kelengan".
BTW, this looks like a fairly decent Bali keris that has been dressed with a very low quality hilt usually associated with souvenir pieces. I would also think that this might very well be a late 19th century blade, though early 20th century is also possible. But it does not look like contemporary work to me.

[NotoriousCal]

I was wondering why I couldn't see the Pamor. I was looking for keris like it and came across Sardulo Mangsah. The description side the pamor doesn't come all the way to the top in this style keris.

Thanks for your response

[NotoriousCal]

I just found this. What metal is this made from?

[NotoriousCal]

I'M not sure if my other post came through, but this one seems to be the same type. Do you know what it is made from? I read that railroad track is some times used in making keris.

[kai]

Hello Cal,

You're making sure not to show keris that are currently for sale, aren't you? (If not, this should be taken to PM/email - a general rule to protect the forum.)

I'M not sure if my other post came through, but this one seems to be the same type. Do you know what it is made from? I read that railroad track is some times used in making keris.

This is an uncleaned blade that is completely out of stain. You just can't expect anyone to give you a defensible answer on what it was actually made from, especially without being able to examine it personally under magnification...

Sometimes even from the worst ePray pics, something can be guesstimated and you can then decide whether to place a bid but this is still very much a gamble, even for experienced folks (and some even more experienced folks don't buy pieces they haven't examined personally). Vague hints in the pic of the middle section of the blade may suggest that this blade is probably laminated; obviously, it has lost a lot of its substance due to erosion from rust and repeated cleaning and/or warangan treatments - it's pretty much a ghost blade which will probably show some remaining patches of pamor; it's quite possible that the pamor left will be quite disappointing though.

I'm not sure what you mean by "same type" - the keris posted first is from Bali and the second from Jawa; one might argue that you're already comparing oranges to lemons...

The only similarity I see is the extension of the kruwingan to the end of the sogokan; note though that the Bali blade only has a single sogokan while the Jawa blade has two.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Cal,

I was wondering why I couldn't see the Pamor. I was looking for keris like it and came across Sardulo Mangsah. The description side the pamor doesn't come all the way to the top in this style keris.

If you don't want to become notorious on this forum, you need to make clear what you're talking about!

1st sentence. If you can't see that the keris Bali has pamor (despite being out of stain as already stated by David) then you really have a problem. A few hours worth of reading should fix this though (a real book on keris blacksmithing [available online, too], not spurious websites).

2nd sentence. Now you're talking about dapur, aren't you? Neither of the keris shown comes any close to sardulo mangsah, I'm afraid.

3rd sentence. Now you're back into pamor: You don't show any pics of the tip and middle section; I'm ready to bet that the whole blade has pamor though...

I don't want to bully you but please try to use due diligence when forming and phrasing questions/requests (even if English may not be not your mother tongue - neither it's mine).

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Well Kai, let's not be too hard on our friend Cal. This is all new to him and this is a notoriously (no pun intended on your name Cal) complicated subject.
As Kai has pointed out, there is no way of telling the source of the iron for the last keris you have posted here. It looks like a keris of some age and one might well find that pamor was indeed used in it's manufacture. But when a keris is out of stain, as it is often referred, sometimes the pamor cannot be clearly seen.
But the Bali keris does rather clearly have pamor and the pattern can be seen if you know what you are looking for. Still, some keris do have no pamor at all, called keris kelengan. Whether a keris has pamor or not is not necessarily an indication of the quality of any particular blade.
Kai brings up another point which i have not brought up yet, mostly because i expect new members to read the rules of the forum before posting, but i do hope that these examples you are posting are not from active auctions or sales on eBay or some other sales site. Posting keris that are currently for sale to get opinions on them is strictly forbidden on these forums, so please do not follow such a course if you want to stay in good standing here. Thanks!

[NotoriousCal]

I'm asking if anyone knows what these blades are made of. In my original response I was looking for peoples opinions. I don't see a pamor so I have nothing to refur to for comparison.

The name NotoriousCal comes from my Xbox one gamer tag.

Kai, I guess you can tell I'm new to keris and the site in general, so why hold me to such high standards? Also, you can't bully me

[A. G. Maisey]

Kai, I'm with David on this:- I do think you're being just a whisker too rough with Calvin. As David points out:- it is very difficult to learn the keris. When I encounter a newly interested person, or even somebody who has had an interest for a long time, but has not had the advantages that I have had, I do try to keep in mind that my first contact with keris was over 70 years ago, and I have been actively trying to learn the keris for 62 years. I'm still learning, and still have a long way to go.

I've been corresponding with Calvin privately for maybe a couple of months, and I can assure you, I would not have given him the time I have if I did not believe that he wants to learn.

There is another problem too:- because of what each of us uses to look at photos of keris, we don't all see the same thing. This is a big problem for me when I try to sell something. Many people these days look at the photos on a phone, and in less than ideal lighting conditions, they simply cannot see what they are trying to see. This problem, coupled with lack of knowledge and experience can cause somebody to become very confused.

[David]

Originally Posted by NotoriousCal

I'm asking if anyone knows what these blades are made of. In my original response I was looking for peoples opinions. I don't see a pamor so I have nothing to refur to for comparison.

Well Cal, they are made of ferric material, iron and steel. When pamor is present and visible there is often nickel contained within it. It is nickel that does not react to the arsenic and lime mixture of the warangan treatment that makes the pamor stand out so on high contrast blades. On rare occasion with some high end keris made sometime after the fall of the Prambanan meteorite in the mid 18th century pamor has been sourced from the highly nickelous meteoric iron ore, producing a very high contrast in the pattern. But this has mostly been reserved for blades of the royal court. But there are also many older keris where there are levels of contrast in the pamor with no nickel present at all, contrast due to different types of iron used in the pamor.
I believe it would be next to impossible for anyone to tell you what the exact source of the iron used in any particular keris is without having been there at the forging. The same can be said for meteoric pamor since once forced it doesn't look all that different than if terrestrial nickel was used in the pamor mix.

[NotoriousCal]

Originally Posted by David

Well Cal, they are made of ferric material, iron and steel. When pamor is present and visible there is often nickel contained within it. It is nickel that does not react to the arsenic and lime mixture of the warangan treatment that makes the pamor stand out so on high contrast blades. On rare occasion with some high end keris made sometime after the fall of the Prambanan meteorite in the mid 18th century pamor has been sourced from the highly nickelous meteoric iron ore, producing a very high contrast in the pattern. But this has mostly been reserved for blades of the royal court. But there are also many older keris where there are levels of contrast in the pamor with no nickel present at all, contrast due to different types of iron used in the pamor.
I believe it would be next to impossible for anyone to tell you what the exact source of the iron used in any particular keris is without having been there at the forging. The same can be said for meteoric pamor since once forced it doesn't look all that different than if terrestrial nickel was used in the pamor mix.

Thank you for your replies.