Tulwar-hilted kukri information

[Mefidk]

I have recently obtained this tulwar-hilted kukri. I wondered if anyone could tell me something about it? I can see a virtually identical one (except for the centre picture) on page 385 of Islamic Weapons, by A.Tirri, but unfortunately there is no more information there.

I assume this is a sacrificial or commemorative knife, but I have no idea what the significance of the centre temple and figure might be or where it comes from? One the reverse side (no picture yet because it is still hidden below grime) there is a figure riding either a horse or tiger with what looks like the same head as the figure in the temple, but otherwise it is identical to the side pictured.

Thanks

[Atlantia]

The figure standing so casually on one leg is Lord Krishna playing his flute.
I too have seen these Tulwar hilted Kuk's but do not know much about them apart from they all (well the ones I've seen) have similar simple/flat but elaborately chiselled blades.
A very interesting piece.
Oh and welcome to the forums.

Regards
Gene

[ariel]

Welcome to the club!
I think it is more ceremonial/decorative than fighting.
BTW, the ribbon of incised decorations on yours is reminescent in principle of this one:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9683
No?

[Berkley]

These are decorative pieces. It's my understanding from John Powell (from whom I acquired one of them) that they were the original tourist kukris, made for the original tourists - British officers in India who wanted exotic, if not necessarily authentic, souvenirs of their days in service to the Raj. Old tulwar handles were joined to a piece of flat, soft metal resembling an exaggerated kukri blade, decorated with exotic motifs of tigers, elephants, and Hindu deities, to create the ultimate wall-hanger for the family home back in England.
The illustration is from the Francis Bannerman Catalog of 1927, showing how these and other decorated arms could be used to create a striking display - "Prices Quoted On Application".

[Mefidk]

Thanks folks. I guess this last post pretty well clears this up. I certainly would not trust this blade in a fight against anything bigger than a rabbit, so a decorative item would fit well.

I'll clean up the other side and return it to the purpose it was originally intended for - dcorating a British guy's house wall

[Jim McDougall]

Nicely done Berkeley!!! Its amazing how much is in those early Bannerman catalogs, and I have always tried to imagine what it would have been like to visit that huge 'castle' of antiques in New York back then.

Hi Medfidk,
While many of the weapons of India were indeed ceremonial or votive pieces, they are still fascinating as icons of the diverse tribal populations, religions and cultures of the subcontinent. Regardless of the actual use of a weapon, it is the symbolism and motif that establish it as an extremely important element of the culture and often religion it represents.
I think one of the best books written describing this aspect of Indian arms is "Hindu Arms and Ritual" by Robert Elgood, which truly helps understand the depth of esoterica imbued in these weapons.

The tulwar style hilt form on this weapon is of a style produced in Rajasthan regions in the 19th century. It seems that these hybrid type weapons which incorporate often both kukri and kora style blades are typically from regions in Uttar Pradesh and Bengal, and incorporate these Nepali forms with the tulwar hilts. From what I have understood, these are temple weapons used in sacrifices of doves, but I am not familiar with more detail on that ceremonial use. Naturally I would agree basically with what John Powell has noted on the familiar 'tourist' designator, but I have seen tulwar hilted koras with similar decoration that have been in use, and around for a very long time.

Whatever the case, it is a very attractive weapon, and though not a fighting weapon, an extremely important piece of Indian religious culture.

All best regards,
]Jim

[sirupate]

I find it hard to believe that British Officers would have had these made, generally British Officers brought back the real thing, it doesn't seem correct to me IMHO. To me its almost like a bazar piece, that made it into export for the west.

The tulwar style hilt form on this weapon is of a style produced in Rajasthan regions in the 19th century. It seems that these hybrid type weapons which incorporate often both kukri and kora style blades are typically from regions in Uttar Pradesh and Bengal, and incorporate these Nepali forms with the tulwar hilts. From what I have understood, these are temple weapons used in sacrifices of doves, but I am not familiar with more detail on that ceremonial use. Naturally I would agree basically with what John Powell has noted on the familiar 'tourist' designator, but I have seen tulwar hilted koras with similar decoration that have been in use, and around for a very long time.

Sorry Jim, are you saying that kukri with with Tulwar style hilts generally came from Uttar Pradesh and Bengal? and originated in the 19th century?

Cheers Simon

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by sirupate

I find it hard to believe that British Officers would have had these made, generally British Officers brought back the real thing, it doesn't seem correct to me IMHO. To me its almost like a bazar piece, that made it into export for the west.



Sorry Jim, are you saying that kukri with with Tulwar style hilts generally came from Uttar Pradesh and Bengal? and originated in the 19th century?

Cheers Simon

Hi Simon,
Thank you for the note. What I was observing is that in previous discussions (its been some time), the examples I have seen of these seemed to have come from regions contiguous with the lower borders of Nepal, that is Bengal and East Indian areas. As with most collected Indian weapons, the 19th century denominator is most common as during the height of the British Raj was when most of these were acquired. Without actual handling of the weapon being discussed, it is hard to determine the age and other detail as these traditional forms remained in use for so long.

The origins of the tulwar hilt, the kukri blade and kora form are topics that have remained inconclusive as far as when and where. I imagine that the combining of the forms into hybrid weapons would have probably been in the 19th century as colonization and geopolitical activity would have actively promoted such diffusion.

Interesting topics though.....need to find my notes !!!

All the best,
Jim

[sirupate]

Hello Jim,

Many thanks for your reply, Tulwar hilted kukri were certainley in use in Nepal before the Anglo Nepali war of 1814-1816, captured versions in 1806 came from Palpa in the Palpa war Nepal, pic below;

So I would say they were almost certainley in use in the 18th century in Nepal as well.
Tulwar had long been in use in Nepal before 18th century, so I would think it was more than likely that it was a natural Nepalese development, and these styles were quite common in Nepalese households at one time;



Cheers Simon

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Simon,
Now thats what I'm talkin' about! Excellent information and thank you for you great photos. Its been quite a while since we've had any discussions on these interesting hybrids, so Im really glad to see this thread, and especially glad to review the topic. It seems I have often heard of the incredible diversity of weaponry in Nepal, and friends I have known who visited there noted the longstanding presence of many Indian weapons, including the tulwar as you have observed.
Nice call, and the supported information very much appreciated...now when I find those notes I can get them updated

All the very best,
Jim

[sirupate]

Glad to be of help Jim, last time I was in Nepal, I was able to get interviews with some of Nepal's top historians whilst doing re-search for the book, I'm co-writing with Captain Indra Gurung, I was a very lucky man

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by sirupate

Hello Jim,

Many thanks for your reply, Tulwar hilted kukri were certainley in use in Nepal before the Anglo Nepali war of 1814-1816, captured versions in 1806 came from Palpa in the Palpa war Nepal, pic below;

So I would say they were almost certainley in use in the 18th century in Nepal as well.
Tulwar had long been in use in Nepal before 18th century, so I would think it was more than likely that it was a natural Nepalese development, and these styles were quite common in Nepalese households at one time;



Cheers Simon

Hi all,

Not my field of collecting but aren't all but the bottom image presented above Kora hilt Kukri not Tulwar? The bottom one is of Tulwar form but to my eyes it looks wrong, it is also expressed to me by a learned kukri collector that this one presents itself as more of a "put together" as the langet/cross guard is not in the correct place one would expect it to be on a piece made with care. I have seen another tulwar hilted kukri where the cross guard is central rather than offset as this one is, perhaps another can supply images of the way it should look, also please look at the original image in the first posting.

[sirupate]

From a Western definition point of view you are quite correct, however in Nepal they don't quite have those defintions on handle types and weapons as a whole, and that's pretty much the mind set I now have when talking about Nepalese weaponry.

However regarding Kora, in Nepal they are not called that, they are called Khuda, so perhaps it should be khuda style handle when refering to Nepalese weapons? If one wants to be definitave in a Western collector type way?

With the Bottom kukri, there were two main ways of attaching khuda/kora/tulwar style hilts for the not so rich, the way you see in the picture or to have them melted on, is the only way I can descibe it, as per examples in other museums outside of the National Museum in Nepal, which has the very best of the best kukri and swords left in Nepal.

Most Nepalese were not rich enough to have them done to the standard of high caste Rana', Shah's, Thapa's etc. and certainley throughout Nepalese history, kukri have been re-handled as and when necessary, with whatever was available, or desired at that time, in the cheapest possible way!

Cheers Simon

[Jim McDougall]

Good observation Gav, I hadnt noticed that langet way off!!!

More outstanding information Simon, and its really great to have some insight and informative input on these weapons. We have really missed the depth and esoterica that we used to get from John Powell, who steadily researched on these weapons with incredible tenacity. We seem to have lost touch with him several years ago, and I hope he is well wherever he is now.
I'm really interested to hear more about the book you are co-authoring, and look forward to new published material on these topics.

Excellent note on the local term used for the kukri, and this subject of terminology and semantics has come up often around here. It seems that not only are ethnographic weapons often called by terms that are distinct only in western collectors parlance, but terms locally can vary widely by region and language variation of course. Certain weapons in Indonesian regions, I have been told ,can almost be called by different terms almost village to village.

Then we have changes in terms from earlier times as dialects develop, the use of improper terms in contemporary narratives, transliteration of these earlier records, colloquial and metaphorical or poetical descriptions etc etc.

The detective work in linguistics is but one aspect that makes all of this so fascinating.

All the best,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Although, most of the tulwar handled khukris I have seen are from indian provenance. Since the khukris have an uncertain lineage as weapons and appeared coincidently around the same time of the rajput invasion to Nepal, I don´t how much of the design of the blade owes to the indian weapons. It has been said that the real authentic weapon from the gurkas is the kora, and not the khukri. I would like to read more opinions on this point. Mutual influences are evident, and tulwar handled khukris seems more natural development for an indian than for a nepalese. Besides, the hilts are usually the part of the sword which is "adapted" by the late owners to their cultural preferences. I also find relevant the comment from Freebooter.
Regards

[sirupate]

Hello Gonzalo,

Since the khukris have an uncertain lineage as weapons and appeared coincidently around the same time of the rajput invasion to Nepal

Actualy High caste Indians fled from the Moghul invasion, and ended up in Nepal, and these should not be confused with the original Khas who were Lamaistic Buddhists, before the Brahman got hold of them.

It has been said that the real authentic weapon from the gurkas is the kora, and not the khukri.

As stated in a previous post, its not called a kora in Nepal its called a khuda, the Gurkhas were never issued khuda, unless your are referring to the Gorkhas from Gorkha? Your statement happily neglets the fact that the kukri (khukuri) is the National weapon of Nepal, not the khuda. Also the view that khuda was the real authentic weapon of the Nepalese, is certainley not the view point held in Nepal!!

I don´t how much of the design of the blade owes to the indian weapons

This statement seems to completely neglet the potential origins of the many different tribes in Nepal that carried kukri, who were domiciled in Nepal long before the High cast Indians arrived, and also ignores where the Tulwar may have had its origins.

Cheers Simon

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Good observation Gav, I hadnt noticed that langet way off!!!

Hi Jim,

I cannot claim full credit for observation, I had noticed it and thought it odd when initially reading this posting but through conversations with another collector about this thread, it reinforced my views.

Originally Posted by sirupate

This statement seems to completely neglet the potential origins of the many different tribes in Nepal that carried kukri, who were domiciled in Nepal long before the High cast Indians arrived, and also ignores where the Tulwar may have had its origins.

Hi Simon,

Could you please elaborate on this history of the possible kukri origins and that of the Kora if it is also from this point in time?
I would also like to know more on the large Kora hilted kukri's you presented originally and their origins as they are indeed Kora hilted not tulwar hilted.


Gav

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Although, most of the tulwar handled khukris I have seen are from indian provenance. Since the khukris have an uncertain lineage as weapons and appeared coincidently around the same time of the rajput invasion to Nepal, I don´t how much of the design of the blade owes to the indian weapons. It has been said that the real authentic weapon from the gurkas is the kora, and not the khukri. I would like to read more opinions on this point. Mutual influences are evident, and tulwar handled khukris seems more natural development for an indian than for a nepalese. Besides, the hilts are usually the part of the sword which is "adapted" by the late owners to their cultural preferences. I also find relevant the comment from Freebooter.
Regards

Excellent observations Gonzalo!!! I am constantly amazed by the scope and diversity of your interests and knowledge on so many fields of weapons.
I know that it is great to have discussions like this where I can learn more on weapons where I seem to have had rather complacent understanding that is clearly not as well founded as I thought.

Your comments, and the reinforcing qualifications noted by Simon are certainly putting these Nepalese weapons in perspective. I have always been under the impression that the kukri probably derived indirectly from the ancient kopis of the Greeks via a number of early weapons in India. I think these are reflected in varying degree in Indian iconography such as found in Ajanta.

Simon, I am really with Gav and Gonzalo on learning more about the kora and the kukri and thier origins and hope you can share more here of your research as possible, as I know it is part of work in progress. I think that the term 'khuda' easily was transliterated into 'kora' to the western ear because of the way it is likely pronounced. Its amazing how an almost undetectable twist in the tongue or tonal inflection can change entire words and meanings in so many cases.

I would like to know about the shape of the kora blade tip and its dual concave curves, and what it might represent.
Also, I think you note an important point....the 'Gurkhas' were military units who served with British forces with great valor, while the Gorkhas were of course distinct tribes in regions of Nepal, many of whom served in these units. In research some time ago, it seems that Brian Farwell (author of "The Gurkhas") mentioned that there were instances of these tough warriors using 'khuda' despite the kukri being the weapon of standard use and issue.

All best regards,
Jim

[spiral]

In my expierience of the Nepal national museam, collecters & dealers there, almost evry one recognises the differance between a khuda or kora handle & those of a tulwar.

I have numerous photos on an old hard drive i can use to illustrate that tulwar & kora {or khuda.} have had different handles from each other for centuries in Nepal. Ill dig them out in a week or two.

The kukri & the Kora are both regarded as Nepali national weapons in Nepal.

The kukri that started this thread was often made for tourists in 1920s & 30s, most tourists in India at that time were members of British Indian army or British Indian civil service.

Many soldiers , civil servants, entrenapurs & indeed Officers brought back tourist pieces of many types for wall decoration even up to & after ww2.

Spiral

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by sirupate

Hello Gonzalo,

Actualy High caste Indians fled from the Moghul invasion, and ended up in Nepal, and these should not be confused with the original Khas who were Lamaistic Buddhists, before the Brahman got hold of them.

As stated in a previous post, its not called a kora in Nepal its called a khuda, the Gurkhas were never issued khuda, unless your are referring to the Gorkhas from Gorkha? Your statement happily neglets the fact that the kukri (khukuri) is the National weapon of Nepal, not the khuda. Also the view that khuda was the real authentic weapon of the Nepalese, is certainley not the view point held in Nepal!!

This statement seems to completely neglet the potential origins of the many different tribes in Nepal that carried kukri, who were domiciled in Nepal long before the High cast Indians arrived, and also ignores where the Tulwar may have had its origins.

Cheers Simon

I am referring to the kora from the gorkhas (I missed a letter, big mistake). Still, most of the tulwar handled khukris I have seen (and I don´t pretend to spell the word 'khuri' in the most correct way, since it seems there are several) are indian. Maybe coincidence.

I am not interested in religious matters, but escentially in pointing the indian presence and the indian influences, which is a fact you can´t deny. Certainly, the tulwar handled khukris are NOT a pure expression of the Nepal culture, but the result of mutual influences. The rest is irrelevant to this matter. I do not discuss if 'kora' is, or is not, the most correct name (here and there, many terms are used only by occidental collectors, and to change this use would be an endless work), but I think we are not talking about names, but cultural influences and weapon origins. Tulwar handled khukris are, or the result of nepali influence over indian population, or the influence of the indian culture over the nepali weapons, isn't it?

I don't neglect anything, but a letter. As I understand,the khurki has an unknown lineage, and its origins are not clear to this moment, no matter it is the 'national weapon of Nepal'. There is a country in Africa which has an AK/47 in its flag, and it is a russian weapon. I mean, there is an historic reason for choosing the khukri as national weapon, but the original weapon the gorkhas carried at the beginning of the nepali state was the kora, and not the khukri, which is a latter weapon. There is not another more respresentative gorkha weapon in the conquest of this territory, and more original in relation with this country. Maybe for this reason the tulwar handled koras are more scarce, if there is any (I personally never saw one), no matter all the indian influences.

Probably the khukri has more extensive use among all the ethnic groups from Nepal, and in this measure it is more representative of this political unity, but the point is irrelevant to my statements: that the kora is more representative from the gorkha, and that the khukri has an uncertain lineage, and probably reflects some indian influences. It is not a definitive statement, it is only a point which dreserves some discussion, in my opinion, as cultural influences have to be taken on account. For above all the diversity of the ethnic groups existing in actual Nepal since long time ago, no one seems to have developed the khukri before the arrival of the indians. Or is it?

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Your comments, and the reinforcing qualifications noted by Simon are certainly putting these Nepalese weapons in perspective. I have always been under the impression that the kukri probably derived indirectly from the ancient kopis of the Greeks via a number of early weapons in India. I think these are reflected in varying degree in Indian iconography such as found in Ajanta.

Jim, I am very interested in the khukris. My first post here was related to one of my own. There is a book from Fernando Quesada Sanz, La Falcata, Arma y Símbolo, in which an analysis is made about the use of the term 'kopis' in the ancient sources. It demostrates that the use of this term is ambiguos and many times is referred to a different kind of weapons. Anyway, the use of the kopis seems not to be much extended in the greek armies, and there is but a few icinographic representations from this period. In the other hand, Alexander only arrived to the Indus, or not far from there, and its passing seems ephimeral. Other thing is the hellenistic presence in northern part of India, in Central Asia, but the influence shuould be seen otherwise in the indian vicinity of this area. Ajanta is far from there, and I never saw this representation to judge the similarities, have you? Have any in this forum? Can we see it to judge? All we have in this respect, is the statement of a 19th Century author pretending to establish the origin of this weapon on an european one. Based only in the use of a down curved blade, which maybe (and I don't make a definitive statement, because it cannot be done to this moment) had a more older african use, if not origin. I seriouly doubt something as simple as a down curved blade has to have only one origin, as it was a unique and oustanding invention.

As with the rest of the european 'influences' we talked about in the past, we need more clear evidences to state a probable cause (not only possible, but probable) of their existence, and sometimes, in the absence of material proof, we have to use the historical context of the weapons studied and dig deep in the cultures. It is far more academic (and interesting) than ID some known type of weapon and put it in a timeframe. I don't deny the existence of this influences, but I think we have to restraint fantasy and speculation to frame this discussions in the strict facts of history and archaeology, if we pretend to be serious students of this kind of weapons. And I know you like the historical analysis.

I only have seen the sculptoric images of down curved swords in the book from J. Paul, Traditional Weapons of India. They come from South India, and they do not look in anyway reminiscent of a kopis, not even in the form of the down curved blade, but in the fact that is down curved. It seems that down curved blades are originally often related to agricultural work and they could be independently developed in several places. And, if we accept the aryan theory, we can also speculate if this kind of weapon or tool was originally carried by this group, which supposedly conquered part of India.

I expect not to be wandering (too much), and I apology in advance for my mistakes in spelling.

My best regards

Gonzalo

[sirupate]

Hello Gav,

I cannot claim full credit for observation, I had noticed it and thought it odd when initially reading this posting but through conversations with another collector about this thread, it reinforced my views.

Is this collector not part of this Forum?

Could you please elaborate on this history of the possible kukri origins and that of the Kora if it is also from this point in time?

We are currentley working on the origins of the kukri, so no real info yet, as for the khuda its not something I have been overly concerned with, but my interest has ben aroused with this thread.

Hello Jim,

'khuda' easily was transliterated into 'kora'

I doubt it, I have been in contact with three top Nepalese historians since this thread started, and one of them has come back with the spelling 'khunda' as the correct spelling, and yet in the National museum its spelt as khuda!

I would like to know about the shape of the kora blade tip and its dual concave curves, and what it might represent.

According to two of the historians, no religious signifigance at all to the khunda, its shape simply owes itself to its effective cutting power.

Brian Farwell (author of "The Gurkhas") mentioned that there were instances of these tough warriors using 'khuda' despite the kukri being the weapon of standard use and issue.

I believe in Byron Farwell's book he only refers the Khunda when used in the Dashian festival 'The man selected to do the deed was armed with a razor-sharp, outsized kukri called a khanra' which seems to be an almost a phonetic spelling.
Certainley in the old days Gorkha troops used the khunda, but in referance to Gurkhas using it in the early days before regulation, I asked a Gurkha historian who said that he had not heard of it, but that it might have happened, this was also the thoughts of another historian as well.

Hello Jonathan,

In my expierience of the Nepal national museam, collecters

You didn't speak to any collectors in Nepal

The kukri & the Kora are both regarded as Nepali national weapons in Nepal

The khunda is certainley recognised as a weapon that was used a lot in olden times, but as a National weapon per say, I don't think so, however I have asked about this and I will pass on the views of the Historians when I recieve their replies. Its certainley not the National weapon of Nepal, the kukri is.

Many soldiers , civil servants, entrenapurs & indeed Officers brought back tourist pieces of many types for wall decoration even up to & after ww2.

That is certainley not my experience of Officers and Soldiers that fought in wars, the ones I know and have spoken only had the real thing, for example David Harland (died a month ago) a friend of my fathers, who was with the Gurkhas as a Captain in WWII, only brought back the Japanese sword he had surrendered to him, my Uncle Charlie from WWI had a dagger that he took of a dead German that he had killed etc. However entrepreneurs might be a whole different thing!

Hello Gonzalo'

For above all the diversity of the ethnic groups existing in actual Nepal since long time ago, no one seems to have developed the khukri before the arrival of the indians. Or is it?

Might well be

In the other hand, Alexander only arrived to the Indus, or not far from there, and its passing seems ephimeral.

It is certainley not uncommon that armies copy and then produce weapons from other armies, like the AK47 on the flag!

Tulwar handled khukris are, or the result of nepali influence over indian population, or the influence of the indian culture over the nepali weapons, isn't it?

Other cultures could be just as important

but the original weapon the gorkhas carried at the beginning of the nepali state was the kora, and not the khukri, which is a latter weapon

Says who?

You will notice the absolute lack of khunda in these historical paintings from a Nepalese museum
This is a scene from a famous battle in the unification of Nepal

And this is a scene from the Anglo Nepali war;

So perhaps some western collectors are more hung up on the khunda than the Nepalese?
But as mentioned before I am in contact with three top Nepalese historians, and whatever their view is I will pass it on.

Cheers Simon

[Pukka Bundook]

Hi Simon,

Since this thread started, an update from Khuda to Khunda has occured. This is very good to know, but also emphasises the strong point, that to avoid confusion, there is nothing wrong with the well reccognised term Kora being used just to ensure we are all on the same page.

When the research is complete, and the definite name and spelling is ensured, then change could be introduced......(Just like Bodecia and Boudicca...but don't quote me on the spelling!!)

Re the Kora /Khunda, It appears Rawson and J.Paul as well as Eggerton, believed this to be the earlier weapon of Nepal,, and lost favour to the khukri in more modern times (18th Century?) I was just reading about this somewhere, and must re-find it!

I am afraid I have nothing to add from my own 'wisdom'...only what has been written by others, either correctly or incorrectly!

BTW, May I ask when the above illustration was made?
It has occured to me how often historical paintings often show representations of contemporay fashion and armament.....(Like clothing and weaponry of the middle-ages depicted on a fair few paintings of Biblical scenes.) Not saying this is the case here, but the thought came to mind.

Thanks Simon,

All the best,

Richard.

[sirupate]

I understand the point your making Richard, except that the khuda and khunda spellings are Nepalese rather than an English interpretation, and therefore more acurate than kora.
Certainley in old folk tales the kukri was in use well before the 18th century both as a weapon and as a tool, and in the old armies of Nepal the kukri was very much in use in battles as shown in the pictures.
Of course the gentleman you refer to were pioneers and have undoubtedly had a major influence on the way some collectors look at Nepalese weaponry, but where they right?
I think the big difference here is, that I am speaking to Nepalese Scholars/Historians on the subject, two of them can trace their lineage right back to Prithvi times, and tell of their families part in those times!

[Pukka Bundook]

You make a very good point Simon, re. "were they, (The early European scholars) Right?"

An "outsider" may be as accurate in his works as a native, but he also may not be!
I'm from Yorkshire, and if a Nepalese chap was writing about "my" history, I would treat it with suspicion, ..at least 'till I'd read it!

I do wish I could remember what I was reading recently!
It was about the kukri, Ram dao and Kora. and mentioned those with inscriptions actually being written in an Indian language (Forget what)

Seems the Ram dao inscriptions tied them firmly to Bengal, as though they were made and used there, but subsequently 'died out' in that area, and were only left in Hindu Nepal.
Where did I read that seeing Nepal, is seeing India as it was?

Must be quiet now. At least until I find my information!

Cheers,

Richard.

[Jim McDougall]

I must say this has proven to be a most challenging thread! In all honesty I have only had cursory knowledge of both the kukri and the kora, and obviously my comments reflect the distance from the earlier research and study I did concerning them. As I noted earlier, and along with Richard, I have been trying to retrace notes and references....especially faced with the apparantly very focused work that Simon is using to carefully annotate the observations in these discussions.

After several hours I think I have made some progress, so will try to express my perspective concerning the comments I have made on the kukri and the kora in a manner that will hopefully be adequately acceptable, considering the well qualified company present in this discussion.

Some very good points are raised with the long standing questions on the veracity of the references that have long stood in place concerning the history of these weapons. Obviously, continued research (thankfully) will revise our understanding with new and presumably well supported evidence on the history of these and many weapon forms.

The comments I made earlier were based on apparantly Rawson ("The Indian Sword", N.Y. 1968), Egerton, discussions and material from John Powell, and private communications with the late Byron Farwell.....most of which took place over nine or so years ago.
Simon, apparantly that was where I must have gotten the thoughts on the use of the kora ( I agree with Richard, for the sake of this discussion it is better to hold to the generally held term) by the Gurkhas. It may have been from Brian, or perhaps Rawson, who notes on p.52, "...the kora is the battle sabre of the Gurkhas", and cites as his reference Mill & Wilsons "History of India", describing the Gurkha defense of the Tamta stockade in the 1814-16 war (Egerton. p.38).
Rawson again notes on p.53, "...the kora is probably the old sword of the Gurkhas and it may well be that thier phenomenal military success was largely due to their possession of such a terribly effective weapon".

Gonzalo, excellently stated thoughts on the proper approach to the study of these weapons. From what I have understood, again primarily from Rawson (p.54) the kukri type blade was among Hindu type weapons brought into the Nepali regions by Rajput ruling class in medieval times. He notes on p.52, that "...despite the fact that in modern times the kukri has come to be regarded as the national weapon of the Gurkhas, its form shows that it is a weapon of purely Indian descent, related to the kopis bladed sword of Ajanta, and the modern Rajput sosun pattah".

Further, "...the direct ancestor of the kukri was no doubt the sword with a kopis blade, but in the blades of certain kukris it is clear that the conception of the forward angled blade, not the pure kopis, underlies the form".

As you have noted, it is not so much the kopis, but the forward curved or forward angled blade, which holds very plausible influence. It is indeed unclear on the use of the 'kopis' by the Greeks, who incorporated many ethnic groups among thier forces and the forward angled blades seem more probably from the khopesh of Egypt, the sappara of Mesopotamia, the machaira of Iberia and the Celtibereans. The application of the term, as we have seen, certainly must have had a degree of misperception, between machaira and kopis in particular. It seems that the Greeks, with the exception of mounted forces, preferred the straight xiphos sword over the kopis or curved blade forms.
It seems this terminology was addressed by the author you noted, Fernando Quesada Sanz, in "Machaira, Kopis, Falcata" in 'Homenaje a Francisco Torrent' , Madrid, 1994, p.75-94.


Some very good information was posted on this forum on November 21st, 2007 in an article titled "The Origins of the Kukri" by V.K.Kunwor. In this it is noted that Alexanders cavalry carried the forward curved machaira, which is not of Greek origin, but probably Illyrian in form dating to 6th c.BC or possibly related to the Celtiberian falcata.

I feel like I have regained at least some perspective on the kukri and the kora with tonights revisit to old sources, and look forward to the much expected revisions which will I am sure render the material I have noted more up to date.

With all best regards,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Pukka, Jim, I take your responses as mine. I agree with your comments.

But I also would like to have more information about this older presence of the khukri, and to have an aproximate date of the first mentions about it in the nepali literature. Is there a date of this writtings-stories-traditions? Is it an oral or a writting tradition, in the first place? This point would add interesting information, if there is any valid and accessible source on this subject. I mean, some references we can see or check personally.

Jim, I think the problem is to demonstrate the material possibility those influences could arrive from the transitory passing of Alexander´s troops in the northwest India, as far as to Ajanta or to south India. I do not doubt there are such representations there, but it seems nobody who I have some contact with of some kind, knows of this representations but from the same literary references. And I would like to see this representations and check the possible relationship among them (the kopis and the indian down curved weapons). Your mention of the mesopotamic weapon is a good point.
Regards

Gonzalo

[sirupate]

Hello Jim,

It may have been from Brian, or perhaps Rawson, who notes on p.52, "...the kora is the battle sabre of the Gurkhas", and cites as his reference Mill & Wilsons "History of India", describing the Gurkha defense of the Tamta stockade in the 1814-16 war (Egerton. p.38).

The only problem with that is that there is no mention of the word kora! pg.38 in Egerton's book says 'using their heavy semi-circular ended swords with great effect'! British military accounts only refer to the use of the kukri, especialy with regard to the much written about battle of Kalunga. Also the kukri has historically been referred to as sword by many people as long as I can rememeber. An example of that is in the 1992 published book 'Quartered Safe Out Here' by the late George MacDonald Fraser describes them in this way 'the other essential sidearm was the kukri, the curved short sword of the Gurkha', sound similar? Keeping in mind IA issue kukri of WWII were generaly a lot shorter than the fighting kukri of old.
Also from 'The travels of India and Nepal' by Rev. Wood 1896 he talks about the kukri but no mention of the khunda being used against our troops!

'heavy semi-circular ended swords' could esily be these;

Some very good information was posted on this forum on November 21st, 2007 in an article titled "The Origins of the Kukri" by V.K.Kunwor

A prominent Nepalese historian has discounted the articule

From what I have understood, again primarily from Rawson (p.54) the kukri type blade was among Hindu type weapons brought into the Nepali regions by Rajput ruling class in medieval times.

I very much doubt it, if they were one would have thought that the early fighting kukri of Nepal would have had Rajput style handles? They don't.

Hello Gonzalo,

This currentley being re-searched, and of course I have to leave some info for the book!

Cheers Simon

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks for the responses Gonzalo and Simon.

Gonzalo, you note very good courses for research in this, and my knowledge of the routes and history of Alexanders incursions into northern India, Bactria and Central Asia are far from adequate to respond. Most of the representations of these early Indian weapons are iconographical and seen in friezes in a number of temples and architecture in Ajanta, as mentioned, as well as Barabudur, Khiching and on the Begur stone. Of these, the only ones I can claim any familiarity with are Ajanta and Barabadur, and illustrations of the sculptured illustrations are seen in numerous references of Indian art.

As has been mentioned, the accuracy of artistic representations must be in some degree suspect, as it is known in many instances that traditional weapons from periods often out of context sometimes are emplaced. It does seem however, that these architectural and static references, which can usually be fairly accurately dated by scholars, often also seem to carry accurate contemporary representation.

The illustrations in Rawson showing profiles in drawing of the weapons shown in these various iconographic sources are used in a number of later references including Pant ("Indian Arms and Armour") and it seems various other articles and references. Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" shows good illustrations of a number of the architectural sculpture's.

As with most ancient and very early weaponry, it is unusual for find surviving examples of the actual weapons, while the iconography of course, remains in the remnants of these structures, and often quite intact.

Going to the subject of terminology and descriptions of weapons and thier forms in contemporary sources, it seems that reliance on these resources in the study of them is probably the most confounding of all. Since the problem of semantics, transliteration and often licentious narrative is so often prevalent with these sources, it is very difficult to rely on them to significant degree. It seems that often, contemporary accounts can sometimes be clouded by emotional or heightened perception, and when recounted to subsequent writers, even becoming more distorted or embellished .
The consequence of this is probably of magnitude for a Ph.D study, but for note here only to recognize the problem in relying too much on such material, and to maintain cautious approach in its application.

With the earliest kukris, it is suggested that this style weapon was brought into Nepal by Rajputs, but that if this was the case, the earliest ones would have had Rajput style handles. Since these incursions were of medieval period, and the earliest known kukri example is believed that of 17th century owned by the King of Gorkha, how can we know what type of weapons were used by the medieval Rajputs? We do know of the khanda, which still has representation in Nepal, and is known from the weapons seen in iconography from the south in India, but the kukri remains unclear.

It seems that in trying to study and understand ethnographic weapons, especially in trying to find chronological and geographic trends in thier development is plagued by the same problems in the majority of cases.
The development of the sabre, the origins of the kastane, the flyssa, the kaskara and takouba, the yataghan, the katar, the tulwar, the kampilan etc etc etc. all are matters of ongoing and relatively unresolved discussion. There is profound speculation and often wonderfully plausible and compelling evidence presented throughout weapons literature, but truly, all we can do is to continue the research and responsibly collect and cull through the material to gather the most applicable data.

This is what I see with the observations and material discussed here, and I look forward to the book Simon is working on. It seems that whoever dares to publish material on ay depth on any weapon form will face the scrutiny inevitable in the academic community, so I wish him well. I think than any true scholar however, welcomes supported rebuttal or criticism that will advance the knowledge on the subject. Hopefully that will be the case, rather than arbitrary discounting of work based on subjective or biased opinion rather than supported argument.


All best regards,
Jim

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Whilst not in any position to contribute to the historical/academic discussion I would like to point out that the quotation used from Egerton page 38, assuming that it has been quoted verbatim, that ' using their heavy semi-circular ended swords with great effect' does not immediately strike me as a reference to what I perceive as a Kukri, large or otherwise. If this was a reference to a Kukri I would think that the author would have said ' heavy semi-circular swords'. The addition of the word 'ended' in this context would certainly make me envisage the sword type that I know of as a Kora , see attached photo. I would doubt very much that he, Egerton, would have used the word 'ended' for any literary effect and that he meant exactly what he said i.e. the end of the sword was semi-circular. A Kukri has many qualities but I have yet to see one with a semi-circular end. I, of course, stand to be corrected on any or all of the aforementioned.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. My apologies Simon but 'curved short sword' and ' heavy semi-circular ended sword' do not "sound similar".