Little SEA knife for ID

[Atlantia]

Small but nicely made:

[Sajen]

Hi Gene,

it is a Siraui from Sumatra. We have discussed this nice knifes recently, look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=siraui

Nice catch, can you give the measurements?

Regards,

Detlef

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Gene,

it is a Siraui from Sumatra. We have discussed this nice knifes recently, look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=siraui

Nice catch, can you give the measurements?

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Detlef,

Thanks bud!
It's very small 19.25cm overall (minus scabbard).
Fruit knife sized, but feels suprisingly sturdy and usable!

Best
Gene

[VVV]

I don't think Gene's "fruit knife" is a siraui based on the hilt, size and scabbard.
Here is a small Javanese female knife of about the same size as a comparison.

Michael

[Sajen]

That's very small, my one you can see in the given thread before is 24 cm without scabbard. Fruit knife size may give the the utilisation. When you see the shape of this knifes it is nearby that they were/are used as utility knifes and dagger as well.

Best,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by VVV

I don't think Gene's "fruit knife" is a siraui based on the hilt, size and scabbard.
Here is a small Javanese female knife of about the same size as a comparison.

Michael

Hello Michael,

what let you be sure that your knife is from Java? I am in agreement with you that there seem to be two types of knifes with a similar shape of the blade. Look here for example: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=siraui
Maybe a indonesian member can enlighten us?

Regards,

Detlef

[VVV]

Detlef,

I got mine as a bonus gift when I bought a couple of keris. He told me that it was a female knife from his wife's hometown in Java. The only thing that resembles a siraui on the knife above is IMHO the blade form. But all siraui I have seen has had other hilts, scabbards and been larger in size. This one looks more like a rice harvesting knife.
Enclosed are two reference pictures of the two typical versions of siraui, which both are much larger in size and more of a weapon.
I think that Willem is correct in the old thread that the knife that was posted isn't a siraui at all. Maybe that's the reason for the confusion?

Michael

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by VVV

Detlef,

I got mine as a bonus gift when I bought a couple of keris. He told me that it was a female knife from his wife's hometown in Java. The only thing that resembles a siraui on the knife above is IMHO the blade form. But all siraui I have seen has had other hilts, scabbards and been larger in size. This one looks more like a rice harvesting knife.
Enclosed are two reference pictures of the two typical versions of siraui, which both are much larger in size and more of a weapon.
I think that Willem is correct in the old thread that the knife that was posted isn't a siraui at all. Maybe that's the reason for the confusion?

Michael

Michael,

good possible. Rice harvesting knifes in Indonesia look different but I think that my guess that these knifes are used as utility knifes seems in my eyes nearby. Do you ever have recognized the affinity with the Bagobo sangi? And I have bought recently a bigger one which look also not like a weapon. Later I will post pictures from this one. Here first the picture of my small one. the handle is very similar like the one from Gene but the scabbard is more like the "real" old Siraui sheaths.

Regards,

Detlef

[VVV]

Detlef,

Yours for sure looks more like related to the siraui (variation #1) than Gene's, both scabbard and in a way the handle.
On it resembling a rice knife I was more thinking about the old ceremonial ones, like those used for cutting for the "rice spirit" (semangat padi), than for "regular" harvesting (enclosed is an example from Sumbawa).
But of course you are correct that it is a utility knife.
I look forward to see your latest find.

Michael

[A. G. Maisey]

All across the Indonesian Archipelago every region, and probably every village within every region has its own little work knives that more often than not have their own individual names. They vary in minute detail, as well as major detail, and those names can change simply by going from one village to the next.

I don't know what the correct name for the knife pictured is, because I don't know where it came from, and in any case, I've probably never been there. If I had to name this one I'd just look in one of the accepted references and name it as :- " a thingamejig from Wherever, according to Whoever".

I think a few of you may know of my love for the Name Game.

Anyway. Rice knives.

Pictured here is what is now used for harvesting rice in south central Bali, its an arit. Just like a normal sickle or reaping hook.

The peculiar little wooden thing with the narrow rusty blade is an ani-ani. This is the traditional ritual rice harvesting knife. It is hidden in the palm of the hand, so as not to frighten the spirit of the rice. A traditional farmer even today will have his wife cut the first few stalks before making the harvest. The one pictured is a Javanese ani-ani.

The rather refined knife with the ebony hilt and scabbard is a very good quality modern Balinese pemutik. A knife used for general work, especially in preparation of offerings and in ritual. Note the chisel grind.

I've got a number of other small Indonesian knives around too, including a few sirauis and similar, but right at the moment I can't put my hand on them, if I can find them this afternoon, I'll post pics of them too.

[VVV]

Thanks Alan for joining this discussion.
Maybe it has drifted away a bit from the original post but I find it very interesting anyway. I do collect arit as well but not the "ani-ani" variations found all over too. In a away I try to focus on weapons even if some of them originally and foremost were utility knives, like the arit. Within the family of rice harvesting knives we should also mention the korambit of Sumatra, Malaysia and the Philippines.

Michael

[Sajen]

Here my other knife in form as a siraui. But I have get doubts that it is one. The form of the blade as well the sheath is matching but the overall apearance is rough and let me think that it is a utility knife. There is an old label in front of the scabbard where is written "soemba". Is the meaning Sumba? I just don't know. It is a heavy item, out from sheath it is nearly 34 cm long, the handle from black horn. Any suggestions?

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

BTW, here an ani-ani from Borneo, Dayak. This form of rice knifes is found like Michael said before in the complete archipelago and as well on the Philippines.

[VVV]

Detlef,

Thanks for posting these nice reference pictures.
Soemba is Sumba AFAIK. But having been there myself I am quite positive that your knife isn't made in Sumba.
To me it looks like a Siraui. It's only the hilt that is slightly non-text book. Why do you doubt it when holding it in your hands?
Mine (variation #1) is 31 cm out of sheath, also has a horn hilt and is quite heavy.

Michael

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by VVV

Detlef,

Thanks for posting these nice reference pictures.
Soemba is Sumba AFAIK. But having been there myself I am quite positive that your knife isn't made in Sumba.
To me it looks like a Siraui. It's only the hilt that is slightly non-text book. Why do you doubt it when holding it in your hands?
Mine (variation #1) is 31 cm out of sheath, also has a horn hilt and is quite heavy.

Michael

Hello Michael,

thank you for confirm that Soemba is Sumba. I have my doubts since this knife look more like a utility knife than a weapon. When you look for example the graceful examples Charles posted in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=siraui
This two knifes look much more like a weapon like my one. Also your very nice second example is more a weapon than a utility knife.

Regards,

Detlef

[VVV]

Detlef,

According to my experience it is Charles' knives that are atypical - not yours, Maurice's and mine. Take a look in the Leiden database for example to see what I mean.

Michael

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by VVV

Detlef,

According to my experience it is Charles' knives that are atypical - not yours, Maurice's and mine. Take a look in the Leiden database for example to see what I mean.

Michael

Hello Michael,

yes, you are correct by this! But I would be very happy when Charles would change his atypical one against my typical ones!

I just think that your second one and the both from Charles are the older ones which can be used as weapons and the other ones are just utility knifes.

Regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Michael, my post did move away from the theme.

The only reason I made that post was to show exactly what is used to harvest rice.

In every place I have ever visited in Indonesia, farmers use tools to harvest rice, and those tools look pretty much like what farmers in Europe, America and Australia used to use before harvesting became mechanised.

They do not use nicely forged and finished blades mounted in elegant scabbards with finely carved horn hilts, to harvest rice.

[VVV]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...snip

They do not use nicely forged and finished blades mounted in elegant scabbards with finely carved horn hilts, to harvest rice.

That sounds reasonable.
Here are three of my arit that does not fit that description. Do you, or any other forumite, know what these were used for, if not agricultural?

Michael

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by VVV

That sounds reasonable.
Here are three of my arit that does not fit that description. Do you, or any other forumite, know what these were used for, if not agricultural?

Michael

Hi Michael,

I have his twin brother:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13919

[A. G. Maisey]

Michael, in respect of the three items that you have shown, I am unable to comment in specifics, because I have not ever seen any of these in a place of origin, nor in use, however, they do look rather similar to tools I have seen used for harvesting coconuts and bananas.

I myself have some items of a similar nature that have every appearance of agricultural implements, but are finely finished, and not at all like the tools that are used by farmers. I have also seen, but do not own, very much older farm tools that date back more than 100 years, these were in all respects similar to today's tools.

In Jawa, Bali and Madura, probably the implement that has been used most as a weapon is the arit, or as it is in Madura, the celurit. In any rural area you hardly ever see a farmer without one, either dangling from his hand, or stuck in the back of his waist-band. When disagreements occur, the arit is right there, and it gets used. I have seen several incidents involving use of an arit as a weapon, and in the daily newspapers in Central Jawa, incidents involving fights or assaults with an arit are common. During the purges of communists in the 1960's, in East Jawa, the common method of execution was to cut throats with a celurit. My wife witnessed this twice.

If we look at the weaponry of Jawa , what we find is that apart from the keris and the tombak, most of the other weapons can be identified as agricultural implements, either refined versions of these, or actual tools used as weapons.

[Rick]

I believe that Conrad in his short story Victory has one of his characters use a Korambit as his favorite weapon .

[VVV]

Alan,

Actually that seems to be the case world wide, you use what you have around you when you need a weapon.
I do have arit and celurit that, based on their size, seems to be made solely for fighting. But none of these have much adornment, which I find strange.
Do you have any idea why tools for harvesting coconuts and bananas are more finely finished than those used for rice?

Michael

[A. G. Maisey]

Michael, I have seen my servant filling in time carving floral designs into the handle of a spoon. The people we are talking about just don't think or act the way you and I do.

Why are the couple of examples you have of things that appear to be tools, ornamented?

I don't know.

I could hypothesise a dozen reasons, but the only way it is possible to know is to have been there when it was done.Maybe a possible reason could be that coconuts are only cut once in a while, so you don't really wear the tool out, it will last for a long time, thus any ornamentation is not lost after a season or two of work, as would be the case with an arit. An arit strikes tens of thousands of cuts: a knife used to cut coconuts or bananas cuts a few times and is then put away.

In Central Jawa there is a plaque of wood that is hung from a waist belt and is used to hold a coconut cutting knife. These plaques are sometimes just plain wood, but sometimes they are highly and elegantly ornamented. The plaque itself is just a simple wooden plaque, but the ornamentation can sometimes be quite fine.

Arits and celurits both come in different sizes and shapes suited to different purposes, from pruning ornamental trees and bushes, to splitting wood for firewood.

[VVV]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...snip
I could hypothesise a dozen reasons, but the only way it is possible to know is to have been there when it was done.

Actually even that isn't sufficient to claim that you "know" something for sure and that you not just hypothesize based on input from your senses and your previous experiences of probable human behavior, reasoning etc.
But I really hate that kind of extreme reasoning (not yours but the philosophical one I exemplified above) because it is so unproductive. Somehow people manage to use their uncertain "knowledge" anyway.

Thanks for sharing your idea which I also find reasonable.
Let's see if some other forumite "know" something else about them.

Michael

[Royston]

Michael, I posted one of your little arits (?) back in January. At the time no definite origin was decided. Kino also had one and now it appears that both you and Atlantia also have them. They certainly get around, wherever they originated.
Alan, Interesting to see your rice knife as it is very similar to the one I have. Mine was given to me by a man in Balikpapan some time at the end of the 80's. He said it was local and I have no reason to doubt him as I cannot see an article so inexpensively made having travelled very far.

Regards
Roy

[VVV]

Royston, the arit is Sundanese (W Java).
I haven't seen it with your version of "upgrade" scabbard before.

Michael

[Royston]

Michael

I still think that these are too ornate to be a simple agricultural tool. I agree with what Alan says about ornamenting everyday work tools but these designs are usually much cruder and simpler. If I could carve like this I don't think I would be an agricultural labourer, I would be carving for a living. To me, they appear "too good" for agricultural work. None of the examples shown so far show any sign of "everyday" use. ( OK I accept that they may have been bought but not used ).
Unfortunately I cannot come up with an answer as to their use.

Roy

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Michael, you are of course correct:- one cannot know something with certainty, ever.

Even if one were present at the time and place of production, and the person producing was a close friend or family member, the reason given for production could still be totally incorrect.

If one wishes to adopt this style of reasoning, there is nothing in creation that can be accepted as it appears.

In fact, we are now verging upon the philosophy of my chosen profession, so I do understand this approach reasonably well.

However --- here we are talking about objects that fall within the ambit of simple folk art. If one were a part of the relevant community, it would be reasonable to expect that one would have a clear understanding of the reasons for being of the objects we are discussing, and their ornamentation.


Roy, your thoughts are absolutely correct when applied against your own cultural and societal background:- somebody in your society who could could carve to a standard as shown in the objects being discussed here, could reasonably expect to earn a living from that skill.

However, that line of reasoning simply does not apply in Jawa, Bali, and I assume most other S.E.A. communities.

As an example. We are familiar with the hilts of Dyak and Kenyan sword hilts. These are prized items of tribal art and the prices realised for the best of them, once they move from collectors of weaponry, to collectors of tribal art, are truly astounding.

However, these hilts were carved in all cases , not by professional carvers, but by the owner of the sword and were read within the community as evidence of that man's ability to appreciate the finer things in life, demonstrating that he was not just a mindless head-taker. It demonstrated his suitability for marriage, and thus his suitability to contribute to the continuation of the group of which he was a part.

Over the years I have seen many examples of art that has been produced by ordinary people in Jawa and Bali. It seems to be an inherent ability that many people in these cultures possess, and it is not necessarily used to produce money.

Another example along the same lines. Up until a year or so ago it was possible to buy and to order very finely carved hilts from Madura. These were not cheap, but they were as good as anything I have ever seen. On my last visit I attempted to place an order for a hilt type I wanted to add to my own collection. I was told that the man who used to do these hilts had stopped working on hilt production, and had gone back to tobacco farming, because there was more money in growing tobacco than in carving hilts. He had been a farmer before he started to carve hilts, he went back to farming.

When we try to understand the how, when, where, and why of our shared interests here, we need to have a fabric against which we can measure our reasoning and conclusions, and that fabric is in most cases completely different to one we apply in everyday circumstances in the communities in which most of us live.

[tom hyle]

likewise the idea that agriculture is lowly or unimportant can be both culture- and class-specific. There wasathread where Billman showed us highly ornamented European bill hooks.
Might Sajen's handle be on backwards? This is an extremely common fate for old wedge-tang E Asian blades that have crossed cultures.
I've seen a few where the cross-cultured new owner had been so determined and unable to conceive the hilt going on in what would in his culture be the "wrong" way (though originally correct), that the asymetry of the tang split the handle. But most E Asian tangs are fairly well suited to easy reversing. I have recently purchased a kampilan with its handle on backward so it handles like a Chinese dao. I was hoping to pull it or tap it off, but someone did one heck of a job of putting it on backwards
Consider what Visayans do with a kris sundang (they put the handle on backwards).