Voodoo doll

[stekemest]

That's not about arms or armour, I hope it's ok to post this nevertheless. This is the best place I know to ask about ethnographic pieces.

A friend of mine is looking for a real "voodoo doll", one that has been traditionally made, no tourist stuff. I don't know much about such things, do they even exist?
If any of you can help me/us to find such a piece, that would be a huge help. Thank you very much.

Peter

[David]

Well "Voodoo dolls" as they are most usually thought of, sticking in pins to bring pain and misfortune to another, do not exist. They are merely Hollywood myth.
The idea for them probably comes from the "minkisi", nail fetishes from the area of the Congo. If your friend is looking for a true ethnographic artifact this might be it. If he is looking for some pin-sticking Hollywood stereotype he is out of luck.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...%3Den%26sa%3DN

[stekemest]

Thank you David, I'll tell him.
He is looking for a gift for his father who has done many travels throughout his life and collected pieces from all over the world. He thought an authentic "voodoo doll" would fit to his "collection". I'm sure such a "minkisi" will do as well.

Peter

[Dajak]

Hi David why you think Voodoo Dolls don t exist ??



Ben

[David]

Originally Posted by Dajak

Hi David why you think Voodoo Dolls don t exist ??

Well Ben, because i know a fair bit about the Vodoun religion, having many close friends who are actual initiates, and it is not a part of the religion, merely a Hollywood stereotype.

[VVV]

David and Ben,

I don't know much about Vodoun religion but I have seen dolls like that used in Malaysia (in Gimlette and Skeat there are pictures of them).
And based on classical works on magic they seem to exist all over the world.

Michael

[David]

Yes Michael, dolls that are used in sympathetic magic do indeed exist all over the world in many cultures. However, they do not seem to exist as such in the Vodoun practices either in Africa or Haiti. Dolls do show up in New Orleans Voodoo a bit, but they are not the Hollywood sterotype "Voodoo doll" that you stick pins in to do harm with. This is usually what people mean when they bring up "Voodoo dolls". This is a Hollywood fabrication.

[Freddy]

Peter,

You will find African fetish statues in many different styles. Mostly, people think of the 'nail-covered' statues of the Kongo-tribe in Congo, like the one David showed.

But there are many other 'forms'.

Here is one of my collection. It comes from West-Africa. More exactly the Benin/Nigeria border region. It's a power statue of the Nago-tribe.

To this piece some ironwork was added to its head. If I'm correct, this has something to do with the god of thunder.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...man/f234vs.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...man/f234ks.jpg

[Tim Simmons]

Cameroon/Gabon. Beautiful woven cloths. So dynamic.

[brekele]

Stekemest , Goo goo dolls is one of favourite to listen, but some voodoo dolls are made adult affraid to see sometimes. Here are some of them.
Voodoo dolls from Java. Traditional shaman crafts.

bre.

[David]

Brekele, those are awesome, but they obviously aren'y "Voodoo dolls" since they do not come from Vodoun culture. Though i do find quite an interesting parallel between many of the traditions of Vodoun and the animistic traditions of Jawa.
i suggest that we stop using the term even when we are speaking of these African fetish dolls because none of them were created with the intent that is implied by the Hollywood term "Voodoo doll".

[Dajak]

I don't think you right on this subject David .

It is world wide that they make an puppet somethimes with nail and or hair from the person and that they try to get control over you .

It can be find in many cultures .

You should read maybe the Wali Sanga .


The spijker fetisch you show had been used to get control over some people.



And I have seen real voodoo puppets from Haiti so they exist .

I don't now what you mean with Hollywood term but there is more in this world that we now or can see directly .

Ben

[VVV]

Thanks Brekele for the cool pictures!

Michael

[Newsteel]

Brekele, as much as I like listening to rocker Goo Goo dolls, but the ones you've posted are definitely NOT. Those demons are nasty stuffs!!! very very nasty jenglot!!!

[David]

Originally Posted by Dajak

I don't think you right on this subject David .

It is world wide that they make an puppet somethimes with nail and or hair from the person and that they try to get control over you .

It can be find in many cultures .

You should read maybe the Wali Sanga .


The spijker fetisch you show had been used to get control over some people.



And I have seen real voodoo puppets from Haiti so they exist .

I don't now what you mean with Hollywood term but there is more in this world that we now or can see directly .

Ben

Sorry Ben, but i don't think that you have a very good grasp as to the purpose of some of these "puppets" as you call them. They are not meant to gain control over other, but are more for personal protection and spiritual growth. These spiked fetishes (minkisi) have much deeper uses than gaining power over another or causing harm. Read again the link i posted:

Minkisi empower the nganga (ritual specialist) to affect the lives of those who he consults with-- the chiefs who commune with ancestors to secure earthly power or the individuals who seek defense against the "witchcraft" practiced by others against them.
Minkisi are used to invoke supernatural power; a "personalized force from the invisible land of the dead (MacGaffey 1991:4)." Most commonly, this functionality includes
ending a dispute, making an agreement permanent, creating a mutual aid pact, healing oneself of an affliction, distancing or disempowering an enemy, protecting oneself against or finding out thieves, and assuring security when traveling away from home (Blier 1995:226).
The importance of minkisi is so great that the KiKongo term for the Christian concept holy is also nkisi (Thornton 1984:152). They are the most startling of Kongo religious objects, sometimes with iron spikes driven into them and open-mouthed figures staring menacingly at the viewer. Symbolic context is conveyed through materials as well as use. For example, kala zima (charcoal) is a medicine used to "strike all who are evilly disposed (MacGaffey 1991:5) and luhemba (chalk, clay) is added so
that the eyes of the nkisi are the nganga may be 'brightened,' which is why when they are preparing medicines, chalk is always the first (10).
These objects require the intervention of the nganga, to both conduct the rituals and maintain the objects. So important were nganga to religious practice that Christian priests identified themselves by the same term..

This is not the same as the general impression that people tend it have of the "Voodoo doll" that is used to control the lives of others and cause harm.If something that that does appear in other cultures then it should not be called a "Voodoo doll" since it has nothing to do with the Vodoun culture. The "real" Voodoo puppets you have seen is Haiti were probably some touristy thing because i repeat, these dolls are not a part of the Vodoun religion as it exists in Haiti. Figurative fetishes are used, but they are not what you are thinking of as "Voodoo dolls" used to control the lives of others. Just because you see some kind of doll doesn't mean someone is sticking pins in it to control other people. If you have some photos, please share.
For a deeper understanding of Vodou in Haiti i would highly recommend Maya Deren's Divine Horsemen and Secrets of Voodoo by Milo Rigaud.
And yes Ben, i am well aware of the invisible worlds and i am not denying the power of magick here.

[Dajak]

David maybe

you should visit the Netherlands this is at the moment in the museum in Amsterdam till may 2009.

http://www.tropenmuseum.nl/TM/Vodou/...FQrsXgodkBB5XQ


These pieces never be shown outside off Haiti


Ben

[David]

Originally Posted by Dajak

David maybe

you should visit the Netherlands this is at the moment in the museum in Amsterdam till may 2009.

http://www.tropenmuseum.nl/TM/Vodou/...FQrsXgodkBB5XQ


These pieces never be shown outside off Haiti


Ben

Thanks for the link Ben. Unfortunately my understanding here is limited since i do not speak Dutch. However, i seriously doubt that i need to take a trip to The Netherlands to get a better understanding of Vodou. I have been studying this religion and it's drum rhythms for more than 20 years now and have actually participated in ceremonies as a ritual drummer.
What picture of dolls in this exhibit do you believe is a "Voodoo doll" meant to gain control over another human being? I do see some ancestor effigies in the mix. Yes, there are objects in the practice that you might refer to as dolls, but i do not think you fully understand what their use and purpose are.

[brekele]

David, Actually I know nothing about Voodoo Dolls . Everytime I heard about words “Voodoo Dolls” …..my mind always think about (shaman, magic, etc) and of course all those dolls that used by a shaman.
I knew that for some people, they like to see those dolls because they haven’t seen yet. But for some people are not nice pics to see. As I said ….make affraid.

Newsteel, I’m sorry if you dont like to see that pics. But In my eyes they are just handycrafts dolls that made from part of animal body. So… I think is deepend than how the way people see about those dolls.

Michael, here another scary dolls. Enjoy those pics.

bre.

[Tim Simmons]

I would like to add a few comments. Firstly I think this thread is suitable for a forum on weapons. Secondly if I was not being told otherwise I would have said the taxidermy snake things were tourist stuff, no offence meant. Thirdly VOO DOO is such a emotive word, a belief system that incorperates human needs for super natural help similar to all the world over. Lastly I have this picture and think I have some more somewhere?

[VANDOO]

YOU MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN DOING A SEARCH ON (VOODOO MUSEUM) THERE ARE SEVERAL SITES SOME WITH DECENT INFORMATION AND SOME NOT, ON THE VOODOO MUSEUM IN NEW ORLEANS LOUSIANA. I VISITED THERE QUITE A FEW YEARS AGO AND WENT TO THE TOMB OF MARIE LAVEAU JUST AS A TOURIST NOT A BELIEVER BUT THE STORIES OF VOODOO AND OF MARIE ARE VERY INTERESTING.

[stekemest]

Very interesting stuff by you guys, thank you for it.
Do you know what "Bochio" were used for?

[Freddy]

I think you mean 'BOCIO'

I have a book called 'Soul of Africa - magic of a continent' in which the meaning and use of 'bocio' is explained. I tried to translate what is said about 'bocio' (I hope I didn't make too many mistakes )

Bocio are found among the Fon in Southern Benin. They are part of the Vodun religion.

The word 'bocio' is formed from two words : 'bo' meaning power and 'cio' meaning corps or cadaver. Together it means power which is transferred to an figurative image (a statue) or any other vessel (e.g. a bottle).

A 'bocio' can be used for good and evil.

The Fon believe in Vodun, secret powers which control everything and everyone in the world. Their forces inhabit 'guardian statues' (bocio) who help people, give life force and can make changes
The 'bocio' are not symbols or portraits of gods (vodun). But they are closely related (connected) to them and form places where the 'force' is concentrated.

When in need, people turn to 'bocio' to ask for help or healing. They are also the ones to call upon in order to fullfil one's material demands. In this way they contribute to solving numerous problems and are objects of hope.
They can be compared to saints in the European rural communities.

I hope this helps

Freddy

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by David

Thanks for the link Ben. Unfortunately my understanding here is limited since i do not speak Dutch. However, i seriously doubt that i need to take a trip to The Netherlands to get a better understanding of Vodou. I have been studying this religion and it's drum rhythms for more than 20 years now and have actually participated in ceremonies as a ritual drummer.
What picture of dolls in this exhibit do you believe is a "Voodoo doll" meant to gain control over another human being? I do see some ancestor effigies in the mix. Yes, there are objects in the practice that you might refer to as dolls, but i do not think you fully understand what their use and purpose are.

I do David but there is maybe more than you know some people are in some thing for 30 years and can learn from other .


Take my word there are voodoo puppets or dolls on the black side off the voodoo for sure maybe you only know the white side.

Ben

[stekemest]

Freddy,
Thank you very much.

[David]

Originally Posted by Dajak

I do David but there is maybe more than you know some people are in some thing for 30 years and can learn from other .


Take my word there are voodoo puppets or dolls on the black side off the voodoo for sure maybe you only know the white side.

Ben

Yes Ben, we all can always learn something new.
There is no "black" or "white" side of Vodou. There is just Vodou. Those who practice black magic in Haiti are referred to as bokkor. These are not priests of the Lwa. They may surround themselves with many of the same trappings as Vodou, but what they practice is the furthest thing from it.

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by David

Yes Ben, we all can always learn something new.
There is no "black" or "white" side of Vodou. There is just Vodou. Those who practice black magic in Haiti are referred to as bokkor. These are not priests of the Lwa. They may surround themselves with many of the same trappings as Vodou, but what they practice is the furthest thing from it.

Hi David maybe not black voodoo in Haiti but it is not where the voodoo come from,
in Afrika a lot off black voodoo .

Ben

[Bill M]

There are plenty of "voodoo dolls" on eBay

If you want to know more about the religion, I strongly suggest Maya Deren's wonderful book, "The Divine Horsemen, The Living Gods of Haiti." Check it out on Google.

[David]

Originally Posted by Dajak

Hi David maybe not black voodoo in Haiti but it is not where the voodoo come from,
in Afrika a lot off black voodoo .

Ben

Ben, you are missing a key distinction in this discussion, that is between the religion that is Vodoun, and the black magick that might take place within the cultures that this religion exists. One of the main purposes of the Vodoun priest, whether in Haiti or Benin, is to protect his people from the black magick that is done within the community. This black magick is not Vodou. It is done outside of the religion. To say it is would be akin to saying that a pederast Catholic priest who is buggering an altar boy in the vestry after hours is somehow practicing Catholicism.
I am not arguing that sticking pins into an effigy doll to cause distress to another is not a perfectly viable and even effect form of black magick. I am not arguing that this isn't an age old practice which can be found around the world including Western European folk magic. What i am arguing is that such dolls should never be referred to as "Voodoo dolls". IMO Vodoun is one of the worlds great religions. To me, and the many friends and teachers that i have who are Vodoun initiates this is highly offensive.

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by David

Ben, you are missing a key distinction in this discussion, that is between the religion that is Vodoun, and the black magick that might take place within the cultures that this religion exists. One of the main purposes of the Vodoun priest, whether in Haiti or Benin, is to protect his people from the black magick that is done within the community. This black magick is not Vodou. It is done outside of the religion. To say it is would be akin to saying that a pederast Catholic priest who is buggering an altar boy in the vestry after hours is somehow practicing Catholicism.
I am not arguing that sticking pins into an effigy doll to cause distress to another is not a perfectly viable and even effect form of black magick. I am not arguing that this isn't an age old practice which can be found around the world including Western European folk magic. What i am arguing is that such dolls should never be referred to as "Voodoo dolls". IMO Vodoun is one of the worlds great religions. To me, and the many friends and teachers that i have who are Vodoun initiates this is highly offensive.

Hi david it looks to me that you missing a point .

Is there an voodoo dol or not .


Ben

[David]

Originally Posted by Dajak

Hi david it looks to me that you missing a point .

Is there an voodoo dol or not .

Obviously Ben we are having a problem communicating here. I am trying to be patient because i realize that English is not your first language, so i will try again.
Is there a tradition within the Vodoun religion of making effigy dolls of your enemies and sticking pins into them to cause them harm. Absolutely not! This goes for both African and Haitian Vodou. Do people do this outside of the tradition of Vodou? Probably. Are they practicing Vodou when they do it? Absolutely not. They are practicing black magic which is not a part of the Vodoun religion. Vodoun is not a religion which advocates doing harm to others. To call these "Voodoo dolls" casts aspersions onto the entire religion that is Voudoun. It is offensive.
Are there doll figures and small statues used in the practice of Vodoun? Yes. Are they called "Voodoo dolls"? No. There is far too much baggage with that term and to call them such would only cause confusion. Are these dolls used to harm others? No, they are used for protection and spiritual growth.
Is it clearer for you now?