forum policy regarding ebay kukri fakes?

spiral · 21st April 2005, 06:22 PM

Currently there is a WW1 fake kukri on ebay, {they often are on there & normaly sell for more than the originals.}{better condition often

}

They are always dated 1917 & have the inspectors mark ... 37

But they have a brass buttplate & bolster.

What is the forum policy regarding such items?

can I publish pictures of similar fakes?

Spiral

Ian · 21st April 2005, 06:43 PM

Spiral:

How do you know these are "fakes?" And what do you mean by "fake?" There is a difference between someone making an item to intentionally deceive a potential buyer, and a person who misidentifies a copy or decorative piece and tries to pass it off (intentionally or unintentionally) as an older or more valuable item. The second area, in particular, can be quite gray sometimes, and can lead to some very unhappy discussions that we would not wish to inflict on this Forum.

Before discussing any current auction or discussing an item in someone else's possession as a "fake," I think a clear description/definition of what makes such items "fakes" needs to provided. We have seen before, in some cases, a wide variation in opinion about how the term "fake" might be applied, even by people on this Forum.

In regard to possible fake kukris, I would suggest that, before posting further on this subject, you first run your ideas past some of the other exerienced kukri collectors who post here, and see if they agree with your thoughts.

Ian.

spiral · 21st April 2005, 07:06 PM

Thanks for the quick response Ian,

Well they are modern, the are sold for $5 in India, $20 - $50 in the states & £35 in England by majour arms reproduction companys.

They are all dated 1917. & have 37 on them.

The are copys of mk.2 kukris.

Which never had Brass bolsters & buttplate.

They are poor quality.

I have no idea how many of the sellers know the truth about them & whether they were duped themselves.

They often reach £150 on ebay. {nearly every other week.}

If you ask any kukri expert they will tell you they are fake. They reasemble true kukri in the manner the chinese reproductions resembe Ninhonto.

But I understand what you say about the potential diffuculties,as this is such a grey area, I will just say let the buyer beware!

cheers,
Spiral

Battara · 21st April 2005, 07:58 PM

And once again, the word research comes to mind.

Mark · 21st April 2005, 10:37 PM

One of the biggest problems that I have with posting specific information on how to spot a fake, is that it is likely to educate fakers as much as collectors. This has been seen in the nihon-to and Chinese sword (jian, dao) area, where the fakes have gotten a good deal more sophisticated, I am sure in part due to critiques and comparisons made on forums like these.

A difficult question.

As for posting fraud alerts in a special thread, as Ian said, this also poses some problems. We will get back to you.

sirupate · 23rd April 2005, 03:42 PM

Hello Everyone,

I fully undestand where Spiral is comming from and the kukri he is talking about is definately a replica being sold as a genuine WWI kukri, which under British Law is breaking The Trade Descriptions Act, and can result in a heavy fine, so they may be the best course of action. Also ebay themselves might under British Law have some resbonsibility, but not entirely sure on that one, providing the advert is based in the UK, and for UK customers.

By the way for those that don't know Spiral is one of the Worlds top authorities on Antique type kukri, so if he says its not genuine, you can bet it is not genuine

For me the question is how to get ebay to deal with false claims? Anybody got any ideas?

Cheers Simon

Rick · 23rd April 2005, 04:50 PM

I hope this is not slander : ( Mark , Andrew? )

I view eBay as a kind of panderer (of merchandise) ; now if you buy the (kukri) in the red dress and it has a social disease (counterfeit) ..... well that's your problem . They still get their percentage .

Look at all the Chinese junk being openly misrepresented there . Have they done squat about that !?

I think this is a serious problem with the venue and the ONLY way to protect oneself is to be educated .

Caveat Emptor wins the day gentlemen .

You can lead a fool to knowledge ,
But you can't make him think .

nechesh · 23rd April 2005, 05:27 PM

Hey Rick, i always thought it was, " You can lead a whore to culture. but you can't make her think." Dorothy Parker.
Sorta ties in with your red dress and social disease analogy.

Rick · 23rd April 2005, 05:57 PM

Poetic licentiousness my friend .

I think I misspelled knowledge , fool that I am .

ps / love her stuff .
The Algonquin bunch were awesome .

Ian · 23rd April 2005, 10:36 PM

With respect to the original question about what to do with eBay fakes, I think we have at least two options that are not likely to run afoul of the Forum's policies.

The first is to assemble pictures and descriptions of items that are recently made but frequently "misrepresented" as being older or more valuable than they are. I put together an old thread on Contemporary Thai Swords for that purpose several years ago: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001291.html

The second is to persuade eBay to take action. You may wish to notify eBay of such fraud through their on line system. Access to those services can be found here: SUSPECTED SELLER FRAUDS ON EBAY

These are two approaches to addressing the problems -- there may be other ways too.

BSMStar · 25th April 2005, 08:08 PM

It seems to me, there really isn't any driving force for companies like ebay to clean house on these issues... as long as they are making tons of money.

As usual, they are missing the boat on this issue. Who ever is managing this part of ebay isn't the brightest crayon in the box... first, it is destroying their reputation as a safe trading place (which will lose business over time)... second, (and more important to ebay) they are getting ripped off by these same "dealers" who posting a price of $0.99 or less for the item (in which ebay gets a percentage) and then charging $250 to ship the item (it may cost them $50 to ship) which becomes profit to the dealer and none to ebay. If everyone practiced this, I would imagine you would see some action and changes taken by ebay.

21st April 2005, 06:22 PM	#1
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	forum policy regarding ebay kukri fakes? Currently there is a WW1 fake kukri on ebay, {they often are on there & normaly sell for more than the originals.}{better condition often } They are always dated 1917 & have the inspectors mark ... 37 But they have a brass buttplate & bolster. What is the forum policy regarding such items? can I publish pictures of similar fakes? Spiral

23rd April 2005, 04:50 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Fakes I hope this is not slander : ( Mark , Andrew? ) I view eBay as a kind of panderer (of merchandise) ; now if you buy the (kukri) in the red dress and it has a social disease (counterfeit) ..... well that's your problem . They still get their percentage . Look at all the Chinese junk being openly misrepresented there . Have they done squat about that !? I think this is a serious problem with the venue and the ONLY way to protect oneself is to be educated . Caveat Emptor wins the day gentlemen . You can lead a fool to knowledge , But you can't make him think .

23rd April 2005, 10:36 PM	#10
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,203	Two things you might want to do With respect to the original question about what to do with eBay fakes, I think we have at least two options that are not likely to run afoul of the Forum's policies. The first is to assemble pictures and descriptions of items that are recently made but frequently "misrepresented" as being older or more valuable than they are. I put together an old thread on Contemporary Thai Swords for that purpose several years ago: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001291.html The second is to persuade eBay to take action. You may wish to notify eBay of such fraud through their on line system. Access to those services can be found here: SUSPECTED SELLER FRAUDS ON EBAY These are two approaches to addressing the problems -- there may be other ways too.

25th April 2005, 08:08 PM	#11
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Blinded by dollar signs. It seems to me, there really isn't any driving force for companies like ebay to clean house on these issues... as long as they are making tons of money. As usual, they are missing the boat on this issue. Who ever is managing this part of ebay isn't the brightest crayon in the box... first, it is destroying their reputation as a safe trading place (which will lose business over time)... second, (and more important to ebay) they are getting ripped off by these same "dealers" who posting a price of $0.99 or less for the item (in which ebay gets a percentage) and then charging $250 to ship the item (it may cost them $50 to ship) which becomes profit to the dealer and none to ebay. If everyone practiced this, I would imagine you would see some action and changes taken by ebay.

21st April 2005, 06:43 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,203	Spiral: How do you know these are "fakes?" And what do you mean by "fake?" There is a difference between someone making an item to intentionally deceive a potential buyer, and a person who misidentifies a copy or decorative piece and tries to pass it off (intentionally or unintentionally) as an older or more valuable item. The second area, in particular, can be quite gray sometimes, and can lead to some very unhappy discussions that we would not wish to inflict on this Forum. Before discussing any current auction or discussing an item in someone else's possession as a "fake," I think a clear description/definition of what makes such items "fakes" needs to provided. We have seen before, in some cases, a wide variation in opinion about how the term "fake" might be applied, even by people on this Forum. In regard to possible fake kukris, I would suggest that, before posting further on this subject, you first run your ideas past some of the other exerienced kukri collectors who post here, and see if they agree with your thoughts. Ian.

21st April 2005, 07:06 PM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thanks for the quick response Ian, Well they are modern, the are sold for $5 in India, $20 - $50 in the states & £35 in England by majour arms reproduction companys. They are all dated 1917. & have 37 on them. The are copys of mk.2 kukris. Which never had Brass bolsters & buttplate. They are poor quality. I have no idea how many of the sellers know the truth about them & whether they were duped themselves. They often reach £150 on ebay. {nearly every other week.} If you ask any kukri expert they will tell you they are fake. They reasemble true kukri in the manner the chinese reproductions resembe Ninhonto. But I understand what you say about the potential diffuculties,as this is such a grey area, I will just say let the buyer beware! cheers, Spiral

21st April 2005, 07:58 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	And once again, the word research comes to mind.

21st April 2005, 10:37 PM	#5
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	One of the biggest problems that I have with posting specific information on how to spot a fake, is that it is likely to educate fakers as much as collectors. This has been seen in the nihon-to and Chinese sword (jian, dao) area, where the fakes have gotten a good deal more sophisticated, I am sure in part due to critiques and comparisons made on forums like these. A difficult question. As for posting fraud alerts in a special thread, as Ian said, this also poses some problems. We will get back to you.

23rd April 2005, 03:42 PM	#6
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Hello Everyone, I fully undestand where Spiral is comming from and the kukri he is talking about is definately a replica being sold as a genuine WWI kukri, which under British Law is breaking The Trade Descriptions Act, and can result in a heavy fine, so they may be the best course of action. Also ebay themselves might under British Law have some resbonsibility, but not entirely sure on that one, providing the advert is based in the UK, and for UK customers. By the way for those that don't know Spiral is one of the Worlds top authorities on Antique type kukri, so if he says its not genuine, you can bet it is not genuine For me the question is how to get ebay to deal with false claims? Anybody got any ideas? Cheers Simon

23rd April 2005, 05:27 PM	#8
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hey Rick, i always thought it was, " You can lead a whore to culture. but you can't make her think." Dorothy Parker. Sorta ties in with your red dress and social disease analogy.

23rd April 2005, 05:57 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Poetic licentiousness my friend . I think I misspelled knowledge , fool that I am . ps / love her stuff . The Algonquin bunch were awesome .