Need some urgent help on this one !!!

fernando · 30th December 2018, 11:01 AM

By the looks of it one can see that, with its sort of half hilt, this would be a piece to lean against something. It comes to my mind this type of Chinese twin daggers/swords that fit in the same scabbard. However the back side is not absolutely flat; still the guard has some protrusion ... and the blade ridge has practically the same volume.
Also, unless some skilled antiquary made a perfect job, it doesn't look technically accurate enough to configure such 'modern' Chinese twin blades, as it looks to have some real age; but i don't know.
Is there anyone out there to give me an impression about this item ?
You will obviously forget the handle cover; someone's invention with no basis.

Total length: 41 cms. (16").
Width at base: 60 m/m.
Thickness: 10 m/m.
Weight: 529 grams.

.

kai · 30th December 2018, 04:20 PM

Hello Fernando,

Sometimes the scabbard of Chinese double weapons has a separate slot for each blade; thus, it may not be necessary to have exactly flush fittings.

The pommel does look Chinese; I'm less sure about the blade shape and, especially, those guards... Not my area of expertise though! I hope others will chime in.

Regards,
Kai

Philip · 30th December 2018, 05:09 PM

Some points to consider:
1. Not all of the Chinese-style paired swords/sabers/daggers fit into scabbards with separate compartments. Some double Cantonese fighting knives slip side-by-side into a single-compartment sheath made of thick pig skin. Vietnamese double swords (song kiem) generally have no divider between blades in the scabbard.

2. Nothing about the blade shape of this pair is suggestive of Chinese design. They remind me of someone's idea of plug bayonet blades, reconfigured slightly for this particular application.

3. Twin weapons with half-hilts carried in one scabbard are not a Chinese, or an East Asian monopoly. They had a limited popularity in Italy as well during the 16th - early 17 century where certain fencing schools utilized a technique using two swords of equal length. The weapon was called a spada doppia, or spada da lato gemelle. Examples are published in the books Armi e Armature Lombarde (fig 264) and in Armi Bianche Italiane (figs. 323-26 and 555-556)

4. This being said, paired blades in various guises are occasionally encountered in SE Asian cultures which have been exposed to more or less of Chinese influences over the centuries. Vietnam is mentioned above. I have also seen twin Javanese kerises with half-hilts in one scabbard, and various other blades of local style from Siam and elsewhere in the region, but configured according to the Chinese-style twin hilt concept.

The resemblance of these blades to a European shape (plug bayonet) leads me to consider the possibility that these may have SE Asian origin since the region was the crossroads of European and northern Asian trade and colonial activities since the days of the Ming voyages and Portuguese discoveries. The fact that the fittings on this set of daggers appear to be of iron points to a somewhat earlier date than the 19th-20th cent. period of most ethnographic arms from the region -- during that time frame, most hilt weapons were fitted up in non-ferrous metals, as was true for the vast majority of Chinese daggers and fighting knives of the period as well.

This assessment, of course is something I regard as tentative, and based on images only, not having the pieces in hand.

fernando · 30th December 2018, 06:36 PM

Thank you Kai for your first impressions

.
Thank you Philip for your essay. I should instantly assume my fault to make you think i have a pair of examples. In fact it is only one that i have, with pictures taken from both sides; which somehow reduces the consistence of this being a modified plug bayonet in the context. Notwithstanding i catch your idea only that, in this case, i would attend to there being more differences in its configuration than similarities to be one of those ... as i am now revisiting R.D.C. Evans THE PLUG BAYONET.
On the other hand i was not daring to reject the Chinese idea for myself and now i feel more inclined to accept such exclusion, although not dismissing that this would have been one of a single scabbard pair ... as opposed to the less plausible hypothesis of it being a secondary 'knife' going sheathed to a larger main sword scabbard.
Examples you quote in Army Bianche Italiane are superb, by the way.
Yes, the guard shape is intriguing, looking early ... European ?
And yes again; this blade, unless having been subject to skilled manipulation, which is highly improbable, looks definitely earlier than XIX century.

Muito obrigado.

30th December 2018, 11:01 AM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Need some urgent help on this one !!! By the looks of it one can see that, with its sort of half hilt, this would be a piece to lean against something. It comes to my mind this type of Chinese twin daggers/swords that fit in the same scabbard. However the back side is not absolutely flat; still the guard has some protrusion ... and the blade ridge has practically the same volume. Also, unless some skilled antiquary made a perfect job, it doesn't look technically accurate enough to configure such 'modern' Chinese twin blades, as it looks to have some real age; but i don't know. Is there anyone out there to give me an impression about this item ? You will obviously forget the handle cover; someone's invention with no basis. Total length: 41 cms. (16"). Width at base: 60 m/m. Thickness: 10 m/m. Weight: 529 grams. . Attached Images

30th December 2018, 04:20 PM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Fernando, Sometimes the scabbard of Chinese double weapons has a separate slot for each blade; thus, it may not be necessary to have exactly flush fittings. The pommel does look Chinese; I'm less sure about the blade shape and, especially, those guards... Not my area of expertise though! I hope others will chime in. Regards, Kai

30th December 2018, 05:09 PM	#3
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Some points to consider: 1. Not all of the Chinese-style paired swords/sabers/daggers fit into scabbards with separate compartments. Some double Cantonese fighting knives slip side-by-side into a single-compartment sheath made of thick pig skin. Vietnamese double swords (song kiem) generally have no divider between blades in the scabbard. 2. Nothing about the blade shape of this pair is suggestive of Chinese design. They remind me of someone's idea of plug bayonet blades, reconfigured slightly for this particular application. 3. Twin weapons with half-hilts carried in one scabbard are not a Chinese, or an East Asian monopoly. They had a limited popularity in Italy as well during the 16th - early 17 century where certain fencing schools utilized a technique using two swords of equal length. The weapon was called a spada doppia, or spada da lato gemelle. Examples are published in the books Armi e Armature Lombarde (fig 264) and in Armi Bianche Italiane (figs. 323-26 and 555-556) 4. This being said, paired blades in various guises are occasionally encountered in SE Asian cultures which have been exposed to more or less of Chinese influences over the centuries. Vietnam is mentioned above. I have also seen twin Javanese kerises with half-hilts in one scabbard, and various other blades of local style from Siam and elsewhere in the region, but configured according to the Chinese-style twin hilt concept. The resemblance of these blades to a European shape (plug bayonet) leads me to consider the possibility that these may have SE Asian origin since the region was the crossroads of European and northern Asian trade and colonial activities since the days of the Ming voyages and Portuguese discoveries. The fact that the fittings on this set of daggers appear to be of iron points to a somewhat earlier date than the 19th-20th cent. period of most ethnographic arms from the region -- during that time frame, most hilt weapons were fitted up in non-ferrous metals, as was true for the vast majority of Chinese daggers and fighting knives of the period as well. This assessment, of course is something I regard as tentative, and based on images only, not having the pieces in hand.

30th December 2018, 06:36 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Kai for your first impressions . Thank you Philip for your essay. I should instantly assume my fault to make you think i have a pair of examples. In fact it is only one that i have, with pictures taken from both sides; which somehow reduces the consistence of this being a modified plug bayonet in the context. Notwithstanding i catch your idea only that, in this case, i would attend to there being more differences in its configuration than similarities to be one of those ... as i am now revisiting R.D.C. Evans THE PLUG BAYONET. On the other hand i was not daring to reject the Chinese idea for myself and now i feel more inclined to accept such exclusion, although not dismissing that this would have been one of a single scabbard pair ... as opposed to the less plausible hypothesis of it being a secondary 'knife' going sheathed to a larger main sword scabbard. Examples you quote in Army Bianche Italiane are superb, by the way. Yes, the guard shape is intriguing, looking early ... European ? And yes again; this blade, unless having been subject to skilled manipulation, which is highly improbable, looks definitely earlier than XIX century. Muito obrigado.