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#1 |
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Dr. Ann as well as anyone else that will comment. What can todays research tell us about these swords. My interest is really about the "Moro" kris. There seems to have been receint research into "luwa" iron, mostly from the folks from Australian National University. What info can we find from examples without any providence. Can you comment on what can be found from iron. This has been discussed in the past, it would seem age is not obtainable, only whether something is consistant for that period. Rust seems to be testable but in your opinion, how well, & how much is needed. I have a few very old "Moro" kris & wonder what is possible to find out about them. How much of something needs to be "sacrificed"? With the dress of these swords is wood, ratten, buffalo horn, deer antler, & in one case I have a sheath wrapped in leaves, but one may assume the dress may not indicate the age of the metal but does add to the picture. I have a 16" "Moro" kris that the guard has already been broken, the hilt has been broken, the tang repaired & even the old injuries have a deep patina that suggests conciderable age. The sword would be expendable if valid info could be found. What can be found to determine age, & what & how much would be lost in order to do so (like a small part of the tang or chip from the inside of a hilt? Is it possible to do ascertain pieces made without European iron? Thank You.
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#2 |
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An excellent question, Bill, and one I'm eager for an answer to, as well.
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#3 |
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I have to admit to being slightly puzzzled by what you mean by "testable".
If you're referring to carbon 14 tests and such, tests of this nature usually aren't indicated except in pieces of great antiquity, with swords in the 100,200 and 300 years being unsuitable altogether by being simply too new. With wood, for example, what you will get is the age of the wood itself, not when a hilt was made. Mike |
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#4 |
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Hi Bill,
Excuse me if this answer is a bit muddled, I have a horrible cold and a fuzzy head ![]() Ann |
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#5 |
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Thank You, Dr. Ann
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#6 |
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ann,
i recall a conversation with david edge a few years back (quite a few) when he said the same thing. from scant memory, isnt the new/old iron down to a specific date, where iron technology changed. or, is this refering to european iron or steel which is more davids speciality. i remember him saying the date, but only remember it being around the end of the 19thC. if this branches past european, then surely this is useful information to some, whose sphere centres around the 19th/20thC |
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#7 |
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Bloomery iron and bloomery slag is different than blast furnace iron and blast furnace slag, and both differ from modern more refined steels, in elemental compostion and often in structure/phases. It is not always easy to tell them apart through microstructure or elemental compostion, but people have studied the differences with some success. I did a bit of a review in my PhD on that if you or anyone wants more details. For dates, particularly more modern ones, I'd have to look it up.
Ann |
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#8 |
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I think Mr. Edge could have been referring to the Bessemer Process that about the 1870's started to flood the market with cheap and almost slag-free steel. The presence or absence of slag would then be a first indicator about the authenticity of a particular object. Not definitive, but at least significative enough. Specially taken in the right context: this kind of steel was, for example, frequently used to make parts for armour in order to "complete" it, at the end of the 19th - beginning of 20th. Not necessarily with an evil intent, but after so much time it's sometimes hard to tell apart what's new-ish and what's not, so this kind of examination can help. Again, not definitive, but it's, let's say, "another tool in the box".
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#9 |
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Yes, I agree.
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#11 |
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RSword,
I don’t quite agree with you, although I don’t know much about it, what if the blade had been keep clean and oiled, but the sword itself had been kept in a rather damp place, then the tang would have more corrosion than another sword, also oiled and cleaned, but having been kept in a dry place. Don’t you think? Jens |
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#12 |
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I think both Rick and Jens raise interesting and valid points. My suspicion is that tang condition is but one of several elements used to date a Japanese sword. In other words, tang condition, by itself is useful data. Just not definitive.
Comments from Rich on this would be helpful. |
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#13 |
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Perhaps under certain circumstances it may be possible to suggest a date by corrosion, but having spent alot of time with corrosion (during my conservation degree). It would not rely on it. It is so easy to corode something. That said, you can look at the type and depth of corrosion which may suggest if it is genuine or fake, things like intergranular corrosion and what form the iron oxide is in, and if there is any relic stuctures in corrosion products, these factors I believe usually occur during slow corrosion. I have some iron that has been in my garage for only a few years (old file I did not want my mom to toss out, but even in the garage after a short time, they have totally lost their shape. They are even too far gone for me to even attempt to conserve.
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#15 |
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Yannis, I am sure it is, but some people live near the sea, and som inland - that should give a difference, if maybe only a small one - but over the years?
Jens |
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#16 |
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My original question was in referance to: http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM...Cook-0305.html , but seems to be less than perfect. I've also read there is some debate to when the "luwa" (Sulawesi) smelting started. Is thermoluminescence viable for these studies or is it just to expensive for Universities for results that still would be questioned.
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#17 | |
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![]() ![]() After few weeks he send to the musuem a piece of paper with few notes of chemistry symbols with percents - something what should every classical scholar (this director was one of them) bring to heart attack. Nothing more. No age, no nothing - just inexplicable percents. To be honest I don't know what happened to this piece of paper with such important science results - I can imagine that director tread it into the ground ![]() ![]() Nowadays, as far as I know, there are non-invasive methods. About the rust - I heard from reliable sources about fakers which are meaking very beautiful, old, deep corrosion ![]() Best regards |
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#18 |
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Long time ago I heard that cowdung should be very good when aging blades/tangs.
Jens |
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#19 |
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Well my thoughts were that when an old hilt is removed there is usually conciderable rust that is going to be removed any way, nice if it could have purpose.
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#20 | |
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#22 |
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"In regards to using corrosion to date a blade, it might be worth mentioning,
that it is the accepted method of dating Japanese blades through the examination of the corrosion on the tang. I think a lot of study as been put into this over the years and one can start seeing trends in the depth of corrosion, color of corrosion, etc. and match this to dated tangs to get an "eye" for dating an unsigned blade. Barring new technology that can somehow date the metal of the blade, studying a blades tang seems to be an accepted method of dating. Thoughts?" ---------- The type of rust, extent of rust and color of rust is used as an aid in dating Japanese swords. However, everyone realizes that it can be "faked". In Nihonto circles it is bad to ever clean the tang of a sword since it is used in dating. The basic guidelines (just that - guidelines) are in order of recent to oldest: red rust, brown rust, rough black rust, smooth black rust. Again though I must mention, as has been said, it is just one aspect of dating the sword and is not considered absolute by any means. Other things considered are shape, prominence of hada (grain in the folding process), style of hamon (temperline), among others. None of these are absolute and any or all can be replicated by modern smiths. That why we have shinsa (judging) by a group of Japanese experts and even then errors are sometimes made. Interesting thread. I wish there was a simple, fool proof method of dating blades of any culture. It would sure simplify things. How about all the "bronze age" fakes on the market? Rich S ------------------------------------------------------------ Richard Stein, PhD alchemyst@yahoo.com The Japanese Sword Index http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm ------------------------------------------------------------ |
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#23 |
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Thanks Bill for the link to that article...it is great and a lot to take in. I think for the time being, stylistic studies, along with technological studies, will be the only way for us to date iron for a while. The radiocarbon does show promise. What I feel is needed is more research/database on styles etc... Then it would be easier to compare authenitic objects with questionable ones.
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