Zweihander or two handed sword-help needed

[serdar]

Helo, i aquired new sword for my collection, german origin zweihander, usual i know very well what i aquire but this was lightning from the sky, so if some one has greater knowlodge in identifying it it would be great.
It is 171cm lond, 3,6 kg heavy, and to me it feals and handles like original, great balance, distal taper, looks genuine to me.
Pattina is good, crossguard very nice.
It has a makers mark or town mark on blade and some on leather.
Any argumented coments are welkom.

[corrado26]

Renaissance double-handed swords are swords from the late Middle Ages and the Renaissance with long hilts of approx. 40–50 cm and more, which were intended for two-handed use. Examples from the early 16th century usually weighed less than three kilograms. They were generally used until the end of the 16th century. It follows that such swords are now almost 410 years old. In my opinion, the leather on the sword in question is by no means 400 years old, so I assume that this sword is an example of historicism, made around 1850.

[NeilUK]

I am afraid that I have to agree with Corrado, that this sword is most likely to have been produced in the Victorian enthusiasm for arms and armour to adorn the mansions and stately homes of the rich,old and new.
The style and size are good, though I don't like the pommel very much. This sword is made in the style of the late 16th century, circa 1580-1610, when it was designed to be carried on parade or other ceremonial, not for combat except in extreme circumstances, which is why so many 2-handers of this style survive, almost always in good condition. This brings me to my main problem with this sword - if it had been hanging on a castle wall,perhaps polished and dusted for 400 years, it should not be covered in rust hardened to the extent that it appears to be. The size and weight are correct for this period - battle 2-handers were a bit smaller and a lot lighter, c.2kg, but many parade ones weighed 3-4kg. So overall I think (but no guarantees) that this sword was made in the 2nd half of the 19th century and artificially aged.
Neil

[serdar]

Well i realy dont know, so i decided to gove up on sword.
When im not 100% sure it is genuine, i dont take it.
About leather, i have some swords that are 400-500 years old and 100% genuine and the leather is preserved same as is on this one, so leather looks good, pomel looks good, even crossguard looks good, blade is nice, i tried to stabb with it it is excellent, two things are wrong two marking on the leather and the way tang is pined on the pomel, it is pined too good.
So yes i think it is 19 century, but very very good smith made it, it isnt cheap repro or wall hanger, if it is 19 century then it is excellent and very expensive repro.
If it is original, then i f. Up and let it go.
😁😃

[Copycat]

It looks really good. Might actually be original. I would have bought it for the right price.

[Victrix]

What about its little “brother” lying next to it? It looks Venetian?

[serdar]

Originally Posted by Victrix

What about its little “brother” lying next to it? It looks Venetian?

😃
Well his little brother looks venetian, and probably is venetian made blade, pomel is dalmatian made from risno, but actually it is very rare sword caled Vukovac in balkan region, it was made with venetian and steyer blades, but mostly with passau runing wolf blades thats why its got name vukovac, wolf-vuk, it is sword from 15-16 century used in montenegro, albania, serbia bosnia and some in croatia, this example has S makers mark, i think it is from venetia work shop i got schiavona from the same maker, same blade, very early schiavona, blade is begining of 16ct, basket end of 16 ct.

Anyhow it is very rare sword, rarer than schiavonesca.

About zweihander, i sold it for very good price, wasnt sure in its autenthicity, and it was too heavy for a wall

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by serdar

😃
Well his little brother looks venetian, and probably is venetian made blade, pomel is dalmatian made from risno, but actually it is very rare sword caled Vukovac in balkan region, it was made with venetian and steyer blades, but mostly with passau runing wolf blades thats why its got name vukovac, wolf-vuk, it is sword from 15-16 century used in montenegro, albania, serbia bosnia and some in croatia, this example has S makers mark, i think it is from venetia work shop i got schiavona from the same maker, same blade, very early schiavona, blade is begining of 16ct, basket end of 16 ct.

Anyhow it is very rare sword, rarer than schiavonesca.

About zweihander, i sold it for very good price, wasnt sure in its autenthicity, and it was too heavy for a wall

The smaller sword looks more Byzantine in style. How do you know the pommel was made in Risno? Do you know the meaning of the decoration on the pommel by any chance?

[serdar]

Originally Posted by Victrix

The smaller sword looks more Byzantine in style. How do you know the pommel was made in Risno? Do you know the meaning of the decoration on the pommel by any chance?

Pomels and baskets for schiavona, shiavonesca and for vukovac, were made in dalmatia, boka and venice.
This one is from montenegro.
Friend who is collector of boka kotorska things, said it is from boka and he thinks from risno region judging on the style, and examples of pomels he saw from there.
Meaning of the pomel, it is imposible to know, i realy dont know, everything about would be pure guesing.

Problem is, there are many authors, museums etc. And lots of them is wrong on many materials, from my sources in montenegro, old archives etc. This type of sword was used in 15-16 ct in montenegro, and in one old book i got on weapons it is called abanski mac, spada albanesca, same in 15-16 ct, same region.

There are a lot of weapons poeple misname and dont know, like pala, real ottoman paka is another thing, and people call pala a 19 ct foot soliders kilij.
Pala has straighter blade more wider, and crossguard is similar to this sword bent up the blade.

There is allso montenegro pala, yatagan like sword with straight blade, in montenegro it is caled pala for centuries.

Another thing, sword caled ledenik, made in boka, extremely fare swords, all in silver, like ledenice pistols from boka.

[Victrix]

Wow, those pics are great. Thanks for posting Serdar. I’m sure much of what you write is completely new to most people in the forum. I never even heard of Boka and Risno before! Even Byzantine arms I vaguely know what they look like. An observation is that it looks to me like it’s typical Montenegrin to have wide ferrules top and bottom on leather covered grips on swords based on what you showed so far.

[Copycat]

Originally Posted by serdar

😃

About zweihander, i sold it for very good price, wasnt sure in its autenthicity, and it was too heavy for a wall

Good for you. Especially If the general opinion of the piece is victorian.

I would have leaned it (secured) against the wall, with the tip on soft floor.

[fernando]

How is it in context, the appearing of a Hispano-Arabe "Jineta" in the last picture ?

[TVV]

Originally Posted by fernando

How is it in context, the appearing of a Hispano-Arabe "Jineta" in the last picture ?

I do not think it is a Jineta, Fernando, despite some similarities. It is a silver mounted dagger from Kotor, referred to as Icicle. There are swords in Bosnia and Montenegro with some features which may have been taken/inspired from earlier Muslim swords from other parts of the Mediterranean, but the links are beyond my knowledge, and most certainly outside the scope of a thread titled Zweihander.

[fernando]

Duly noted Teodor ... thanks .