Two takoubas - photos of the blade from Ghat

Martin Lubojacky · 31st October 2012, 01:21 PM

photos

A.alnakkas · 31st October 2012, 02:45 PM

Nice! I like the symbols on the blade, is that the lion of Judah?

Martin Lubojacky · 31st October 2012, 03:47 PM

I do not think Lion of Judah. Just a Lion.
Lion of Judah, as a symbol of Abyssinia, is standing and keeping flag

Iain · 31st October 2012, 03:49 PM

Hi Martin,

Would it be possible to see photos of the entire sword?

Interesting markings, I have seen similar although less well done. One sword I used to own had a similarly styled lion.

Are the star and lion on the same sword or two different swords (I'm just a little confused from the thread title

)

Martin Lubojacky · 31st October 2012, 04:27 PM

Hi Iain
This thread is sequel to previous thread the name of which is "Two takoubas".
Explanation:
You can only post max 12 photos. I ewanted to post 15. So I started thread with 12 and added the rest one minute later, but I was forced to start another thread.

The first thread with 12 photos is showing two swords - one from Ghat and one from Ubari. I wanted to emphasise sequence of the threads - maybe I did nit choose the right name of this second thread.

On the photos here you can see two sides of one sword which is comming from Ghat. The entire sword you can see in previous thread.

Iain · 31st October 2012, 05:01 PM

Hi Martin, thanks I was just a little confused.

Both are nice swords. The mounts I guess are not so old but the blade with single fuller looks like old trade blade to me. I'm not sure if the marks are European but they look nicely engraved and not done recently. I would not be surprised if they are original. Hopefully some others like Jim or Lee who are much more well researched and experienced with marks can comment.

Jim McDougall · 1st November 2012, 08:52 PM

On these blades which entered North Africa through various entrepots into the caravan networks, they were often first brought into merchants in these centers. It is unclear exactly where many of the extant markings on these various blades were applied. However, what is clear is that they were meant to imitate known European trade markings which had often gained various talismanic and imbued power via quality in native interpretation.

The couchant lion symbol was a trademark used by C.Lutters and Co. of Solingen (Bezdek, p.147) from c.1840-modern. While uncertain how what volume of blades may have existed in the Saharan sphere from this maker, it does seem that Rodd (1926) did note a mark with couchant lion as present on the 'masri' blades.
The 'Star of Solomon' seems to have had certain presence of course but have not located notes yet. It seems quite possible that these marks which occurred on British blades as surround on proof marks might have been copied, again in the quality sense. Despite most blades being German in these regions, it is known that some British blades were known over time, I have seen Mole blades on some takouba and there must have been others.

Iain · 3rd November 2012, 12:28 PM

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the great notes on these marks.

I recall now we've discussed the potential link between British proof stamps and the star. I believe it turned up on some kaskara as well as an acid etch, I think Stephen has one.

The note about C.Lutters and Co. is actually particularly interesting because from a little research online it seems they did a lot of razor manufacturing as well. This is of particular interest because explorers like Barth are quite clear on the import of razors into Sahel markets during the 1800s.

I'm attaching an image found online of the Lutters mark - I am not sure what period it is from, but I think interesting none the less.

I could not find anything about swords from Lutters from the period - but I think the straight razors are an interesting angle and possible vector for the mark in native usage.

Jim McDougall · 3rd November 2012, 11:36 PM

Thanks Iain, good points on the import of razors, and often the trademarks and devices on these sundry items definitely had an impact on native consumers. As we have often discussed, many of the European markings gained certain talismanic or imbued power via quality assurance in native interpretation. For example the curious 'fly' symbols; the cross and orb becoming the drum; and of course the crescent moons.

I have often wondered, the sphinx must have been a marvel which certainly was known via oral tradition and tales carried far into many tribal regions on trade routes. It is well established that ancient Egyptian elements are present in most of these cultures in varying degree , and the lion is of totemic and royal significance. The Hadendoa name is derived partly from the word for lion as I recall from notes. Perhaps the couchant lion as seen on these items may have inspired the interpretation using the symbol in that regard. I dont actually know of actual examples of blades produced by this firm found on swords, which might have inspired copies like the running wolf, cross and orb and others.

To be clear, not suggesting the use of this symbol for Hadendoa, as this seems clearly Saharan, but the analogy for possible use of the image seemed pertinant.

Iain · 4th November 2012, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks Iain, good points on the import of razors, and often the trademarks and devices on these sundry items definitely had an impact on native consumers. As we have often discussed, many of the European markings gained certain talismanic or imbued power via quality assurance in native interpretation. For example the curious 'fly' symbols; the cross and orb becoming the drum; and of course the crescent moons.

I have often wondered, the sphinx must have been a marvel which certainly was known via oral tradition and tales carried far into many tribal regions on trade routes. It is well established that ancient Egyptian elements are present in most of these cultures in varying degree , and the lion is of totemic and royal significance. The Hadendoa name is derived partly from the word for lion as I recall from notes. Perhaps the couchant lion as seen on these items may have inspired the interpretation using the symbol in that regard. I dont actually know of actual examples of blades produced by this firm found on swords, which might have inspired copies like the running wolf, cross and orb and others.

To be clear, not suggesting the use of this symbol for Hadendoa, as this seems clearly Saharan, but the analogy for possible use of the image seemed pertinant.

Hi Jim,

Great fun to be back to odd marks on takouba! I could also not find any examples of sword blades from Lutters. However, I think if you take into account the existing lion marks that would have been known from imported blades like those from Kull, the combination and application of various lion engravings locally would make sense. Perhaps the artist had a razor lying around to copy from? Although that's only idle speculation.

Another angle, a similar style of lion is found on Ethiopian gurade blades isn't it? Although the style is quite different.

The star is of equal interest to me as I don't really recall many of these showing up on takouba. There's another example here of Lee's: http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/takoubae.html

All the best,

Iain

31st October 2012, 01:21 PM	#1
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Two takoubas - photos of the blade from Ghat photos Attached Images

31st October 2012, 03:49 PM	#4
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Martin, Would it be possible to see photos of the entire sword? Interesting markings, I have seen similar although less well done. One sword I used to own had a similarly styled lion. Are the star and lion on the same sword or two different swords (I'm just a little confused from the thread title ) Attached Images

3rd November 2012, 12:28 PM	#8
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Jim, Thanks for the great notes on these marks. I recall now we've discussed the potential link between British proof stamps and the star. I believe it turned up on some kaskara as well as an acid etch, I think Stephen has one. The note about C.Lutters and Co. is actually particularly interesting because from a little research online it seems they did a lot of razor manufacturing as well. This is of particular interest because explorers like Barth are quite clear on the import of razors into Sahel markets during the 1800s. I'm attaching an image found online of the Lutters mark - I am not sure what period it is from, but I think interesting none the less. I could not find anything about swords from Lutters from the period - but I think the straight razors are an interesting angle and possible vector for the mark in native usage. Attached Images

31st October 2012, 02:45 PM	#2
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Nice! I like the symbols on the blade, is that the lion of Judah?

31st October 2012, 03:47 PM	#3
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	I do not think Lion of Judah. Just a Lion. Lion of Judah, as a symbol of Abyssinia, is standing and keeping flag

31st October 2012, 04:27 PM	#5
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Hi Iain This thread is sequel to previous thread the name of which is "Two takoubas". Explanation: You can only post max 12 photos. I ewanted to post 15. So I started thread with 12 and added the rest one minute later, but I was forced to start another thread. The first thread with 12 photos is showing two swords - one from Ghat and one from Ubari. I wanted to emphasise sequence of the threads - maybe I did nit choose the right name of this second thread. On the photos here you can see two sides of one sword which is comming from Ghat. The entire sword you can see in previous thread.

31st October 2012, 05:01 PM	#6
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Martin, thanks I was just a little confused. Both are nice swords. The mounts I guess are not so old but the blade with single fuller looks like old trade blade to me. I'm not sure if the marks are European but they look nicely engraved and not done recently. I would not be surprised if they are original. Hopefully some others like Jim or Lee who are much more well researched and experienced with marks can comment.

1st November 2012, 08:52 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,894	On these blades which entered North Africa through various entrepots into the caravan networks, they were often first brought into merchants in these centers. It is unclear exactly where many of the extant markings on these various blades were applied. However, what is clear is that they were meant to imitate known European trade markings which had often gained various talismanic and imbued power via quality in native interpretation. The couchant lion symbol was a trademark used by C.Lutters and Co. of Solingen (Bezdek, p.147) from c.1840-modern. While uncertain how what volume of blades may have existed in the Saharan sphere from this maker, it does seem that Rodd (1926) did note a mark with couchant lion as present on the 'masri' blades. The 'Star of Solomon' seems to have had certain presence of course but have not located notes yet. It seems quite possible that these marks which occurred on British blades as surround on proof marks might have been copied, again in the quality sense. Despite most blades being German in these regions, it is known that some British blades were known over time, I have seen Mole blades on some takouba and there must have been others.

3rd November 2012, 11:36 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,894	Thanks Iain, good points on the import of razors, and often the trademarks and devices on these sundry items definitely had an impact on native consumers. As we have often discussed, many of the European markings gained certain talismanic or imbued power via quality assurance in native interpretation. For example the curious 'fly' symbols; the cross and orb becoming the drum; and of course the crescent moons. I have often wondered, the sphinx must have been a marvel which certainly was known via oral tradition and tales carried far into many tribal regions on trade routes. It is well established that ancient Egyptian elements are present in most of these cultures in varying degree , and the lion is of totemic and royal significance. The Hadendoa name is derived partly from the word for lion as I recall from notes. Perhaps the couchant lion as seen on these items may have inspired the interpretation using the symbol in that regard. I dont actually know of actual examples of blades produced by this firm found on swords, which might have inspired copies like the running wolf, cross and orb and others. To be clear, not suggesting the use of this symbol for Hadendoa, as this seems clearly Saharan, but the analogy for possible use of the image seemed pertinant.