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27th July 2014, 12:42 AM
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#211 |
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Too funny...
The fighting sword type has been presented in form and in theory, yet you do not embrace it....you do not seek to explore it, only refute the data provided with wild guesses, long indirect stories and no facts to support further wild claims. Your stories about what I had presented have also been changed and swapped around within the 17 months this thread has been running...and then without honour addressed in a most distasteful manner....  Now the hard questions I pose are passed in full and other's questions are answered with so much fat any hope of a straight answer is lost. it is all good fun. do continue. Post Script; the entire notion of dances swords in a modern context is wonderful and embraced. But to go beyond the 19th century, the discussion should be "Oman swords danced with", knowing many types were used over time. The long handled straight sword was used for both fighting and dancing..it is all rather clear. Last edited by SwordsAntiqueWeapons; 27th July 2014 at 01:10 AM. |
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27th July 2014, 01:27 AM
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#212 | |
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27th July 2014, 08:33 AM
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#213 | |
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To save the repetition of typing... |
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27th July 2014, 08:46 AM
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#214 | |
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And that together with your scholarly attitude. |
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27th July 2014, 06:09 PM
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#215 |
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Moderator's Comment
Okay, gentlemen. Here is how this is going to work.
The next person (or persons) who is unable to continue this "debate" in a neutral, objective manner will cause this thread to be locked, and will receive a 10 day suspension of posting privileges. This means you should studiously avoid including any comment within your post that the least aggravated among us might construe as rude, inflammatory, ad hominem, a "dig", etc. Perhaps you might even consider limiting your comments to---wait for it---the merits of the other posters' comments, rather than the posters themselves.  We rapidly approach critical mass here... Andrew Vikingsword Staff |
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27th July 2014, 07:34 PM
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#216 |
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Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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Salaams Forum ~ The well documented detail of the flexible dancing sword can be seen at the fine reference from David viz; http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21104401332677 and until I can trace the reference by H Ingrams who it can be seen at my post above was a fine historian who wrote the book on Zanzibar and in fact another load of anecdotes on Hadramaut ..who knows maybe it is one of those references that got crossed in the system though if my memory serves me well I am almost certain it was on the subject of Manga ...a structure I had never heard about until I wrote the reference in Kattara for comments...a while ago but researchers know well my predicament and that when it turns up I will place it here.
Meanwhile the Omani Dancing Sword wrongly or mistakenly mis-reported down the ages from the early 18th C by the half dozen or so visitors to Oman continues to stretch the imagination unabated though hopefully with restraint and honourability amongst men... I repeat that at the start I was so taken in by the furore and warlike nature of the sword in its mimic fight that I too thought it was a fighting weapon. Having looked at hundreds of blades I have seen none that qualify as battle worthy. I have spoken to many many Omani people in and out of the Souk and examined blades there and in the Museums where I have seen no battle blades ... that is stuff blades ...moreover they are bendy to over 90 degrees some more or less than others by a few degrees. They are very flexible... and clearly this blade type is no fighter...not only because the question has been asked here where they just laugh at the notion but because it simply doesn't stack up ... A rigid blade would make mincemeat of this in a real contest... moreover it is the famed dancer of Funun traditional dancing...and despite its sharp edges it simply cannot be something it is not. To date no known battle sword in this configuration exists except in the imagination of the early 19th C visitors etc but people are doubly hoodwinked by those narratives and the appearance in Souks of the Ethiopian blade ... please allow me to smile at this point... its amazing.... Where was I..?. Oh yes the Ethiopian blade rehilted on the Omani longhilt from about 1970. Some forum members have alluded to this blade or a fighting blade with a thick stiff blade ...that is built like a dancing sword ..It does not exist in reality as a historical fact...It is a red herring. Tribal soldiers carried the Sword and Terrs as part of their equipment since they were required to do pageant and saluting with it all the time and to stay fit the mimic fight was quite useful but done more in the pageant...in The Funun as at the reference at the top of this post. Anyone who is somehow able to conjure up a completely unknown weapon of this description will become instantly famous ... An as yet undiscovered fighting sword of Oman. Those individuals who reckon it exists are requested in the time honoured way; to prove it. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 27th July 2014 at 08:31 PM. |
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27th July 2014, 08:35 PM
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#217 | ||
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Noted in full Andrew. Thank you. Ive been doing my best...
iechyd da boyo Ibrahim! To further help your reference search for the elusive quote from an unknown place,source or origin { perhaps by the respected researcher Ingrams or perhaps not...  }Namely..... Quote:
These screen below captures may help. Despite the whole book not being available online from google books, a word search on the relevant reference page brings up the references, even for pages that are not officially available. linky to the book of words. Its a very useful tool, I found so anyway.  Fascinatingly the relevant song & dance chapters you citied are also complete! {Rather than having to use the internal word search function.} {Its the 1931 edtion you original quoted before understandable uncertainty of your source set in.} Quote:
Historically in many cultures this is wrong! A blow from a razor sharp 30 inch or whatever blade of thin whippy spring steel construction will cut you to the bone, slide down the bone & remove great hanging pieces of flesh & sinew , slicing arteries as it does so. Highly efficient against tribesmen peasants & slaves, {not to mention women & children.  } {ref. page 144 in Ingrams excellent work..}wearing a thin dress of cotton at most.That is a fact. If you & your associates down at the dockside souks are unaware of it that's another thing. ...Have you contemplated that as possible Ibrahim? Perhaps a little wider research will help you there? Skinny spring steels blades will strip you bare to the bone......If razor sharp of course... Spiral Last edited by spiral; 27th July 2014 at 10:21 PM. |
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27th July 2014, 08:57 PM
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#218 |
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O yes, before I forget, Please if you ever find the elusive source of your statement re. Ingrams certainty that only straight dancing swords were used.
Please add it to this thread.... There many waiting to see the source in its entirety & properly referenced. As you know.. some people may be just a touch sceptical...  Its seems terrible to not be able to fathom the true source of such a critical & important statement, that so supported you in your 17 month long thread, particularily in your hour of need in the face of so much scepticism from myself & so many other forum members. Hwyl fawr am nawr Ibrahim! spiral Last edited by spiral; 27th July 2014 at 10:26 PM. |
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27th July 2014, 10:51 PM
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#219 | |
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On the subject of Funun and the straight sword see http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...=21104401332677 where it explains the weapon used in Razha. Consider what sword may have been first used in the Funun and in that regard the Old Omani Battle Sword fits... pre the Dynastic Sword or flexible dancer.. What this pair of references has effectively done is to close out any interlopers in the time frame. What it cannot show is what occured much later in 1970 when Oman opened the door into the late 20th Century and the through trade between souks flourished not least with blade rehilting which was quite prolific ...but the story has been told... On with the show !! Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 27th July 2014 at 11:42 PM. |
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27th July 2014, 11:43 PM
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Have a look here; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcLH9p-mKsY Jian are of a less broad elliptical cross section, sometimes diamond cross section and typically without fullers, take particular note of the flex. Quote:
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It is further amazing that the blade proportions and types of the Oman sword being discussed are not found in the Ethiopian sword forms. Of the 25+ forms I have handled over hundreds of Ethiopian swords and thousands more I have viewed, the blade type found in the Oman long handled sword it not one of them. I will not say they do not exist, there may be several examples from northern borders but the claim that Souks have remounted Ethiopian blade in long hilted Omani style, is to this point not shown or proved beyond your hearsay...which is contrary to the facts I note above. Quote:
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28th July 2014, 12:17 AM
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#221 |
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Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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Salaams ...I am fully aware of flexible blade use ... The Shotley Bridge maker hid one in his bowler hat and amazed onlookers at a trade show...I know many nations used such flexible weapons.. but you know that Omani dancing swords were never used in a battle ... In addition what you are trying to show is a firm stiff blade built along the same lines as the dancing sword~ that has never been part of history here. It never happened.
I have explained the story of the dancer in full ... I don't know any more info such is the vast degree of stuff I have presented from the Funun ~Omani tradition~ through Ingrams and Skeens notes above and all the details at the now famous summary on thread. Cutting in half bamboo or watermellons does not prove the sword battle capable...or that it was used for fighting in the past... The edges were sharp for another reason... In honour etc as explained. The sword that did the damage was the Old Omani Battle Sword. I think the request to show an old dancing sword is reasonable and I shall endeavor to do just that. There are however no in between swords or a ghost weapon that no one has noticed save the rehilt situation...which everyone is up in arms about when it is only human nature ...I estimate thousands were released onto world collections over the almost half decade of rehilting..This was done with Sanaa rehilts and Muscat work... in some cases expertly carried out. People are almost damning of the process but it happened and is still going on...does that mean the Muttrah people dont have good swords?.. Ha ! I can say that given the choice If I am in Muscat and its a spin up Museums or Muttrah Souk ... Take me to the souk any day! because amongst it all there are the genuine items...and in fact...they also have provided the real McCoy on occasions to the Museums !! Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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28th July 2014, 01:44 AM
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#222 |
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I don't feel hat or belt swords even need a mention here, flexible swords, worn suspended in the open real world are not parallel.
The full dancer story has its merit here, only in that the dancing with a sword is a long tradition. The use of a sword in the Funun in noted...But regarding the types of blades and use of the sword in the past, nothing thus far, has proved the sword type under discussion was "ONLY" used to dance. Nothing thus far has proved the sword of exact same visual form that carries a heavier blade is from the Souks. To show you this detail, also please bring your best Souk fake to the table too and we can then compare it pound for pound, however make sure it is the absolute best though, in proper old and complete dress, with all the silver trimming of the best dance sword you care to show, anything less is not worth wasting our time on....you know, the type you said carry all old original hilts and fittings. Please also refer to my notes about the Ethiopian sword types and surprise me, show me one of these old blades that mirror the Oman swords shape in native context or freshly arrived Souk port complete and intact from Ethiopia. I have nothing against what they do in the Souk, however, I do and have noted that the Souk copy sword shown is in bad taste. It does not, from the sinlge image presented, even resemble an Omani sword. Thank you. |
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28th July 2014, 02:15 AM
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#223 | |
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Thanks |
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28th July 2014, 06:53 AM
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#224 | ||
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No one doubted that reference or said it didn't exist. Your Engish is better than many peoples born in England. you know that. This is the one I repeatedly asked you to justify. Quote:
spiral |
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28th July 2014, 09:15 PM
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#225 |
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Moderator's Comment
To avoid providing unwanted grist for the rumor mill, please be advised the mod team closed this thread temporarily so we may discuss it.
While under discussion, I strongly advise against perpetuating this "debate" elsewhere on the forum, be it in an existing thread or a new thread. By all means, however, feel free to take it to 4Chan, PM or private email.
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29th July 2014, 04:49 PM
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#226 |
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Moderator Action
The mod team has completed our review and discussion of this thread. Our decision is that it will remain closed.
Anyone with the intestinal fortitude to wade through this thread with an objective eye would agree with this decision--indeed, he or she would marvel at how long it was permitted to remain open. This will not happen again. No further warnings nor gentle "reminders" will be provided. Threads will be locked and posting privileges will be revoked or suspended without notice. We strongly suggest you re-read your posts before hitting "Submit Reply." If you are uncertain whether your post will trigger a ban or thread lock, don't post it. Andrew Vikingsword Staff |
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