Kattara for comments

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I answer Atlantia below...Shukran

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Thought you might be interested in the following.
A relic Kattara showing how the familiar short tang of the 'Kaskara' type trade blade is extended to the Omani block pommel.

Salaams Atlantia, We started out on this thread (Kattara for Comment) with the wrong terminology since during the discussion it has been proven that the straight sword is the Sayf and the curved is the Kattara therefor we are looking at a Sayf... and it is very interesting as it is clearly an old version... and as you say a Kaskara conversion. I suppose its a Kaskara- Sayf !
This is a most interesting morph/conversion and we assume it would have been tooled up with an Omani long hilt. I have no idea how to conclude its trade blade provenance or if it is locally made? I think that what we have here, however interesting, is only a converted hilt; no more no less.

I can imagine a Sayf or Kaskara on the edge of the Omani periphery being converted to Sayf, like your example... That is entirely plausible. I would, however, have expected a trail of Omani long Sayf to be scattered down the supply route if they came via the Red Sea or via Africa in great numbers but there are, apparently, none.

Certain publications state the Omani Trade Blade provenance (though I believe they have compounded their error in continuing to copy that mistake) however none of the European people (visitors to Oman) quoted in this thread #164 nor the advisor to government affairs in Zanzibar around 1900(W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor) nor any mention in "British/French relations in the Indian Ocean" By Dr Sheikh Sultan al Qassimi" which focusses on Muscat, India and Zanzibar spanning the supposed time of the European Trade Blade's appearance..make any reference to European Trade Blades for Oman. No proof exists of blades coming from India, Persia, Sri Lanka, or Yemen despite the older blade carrying the name of Sayf Yamani.
Proof exists of local Omani manufacture though none for imported blades. Not yet.

This is an excellent addition to the thread and is in many ways the essence of what we are looking at ..."The European Trade Blade conundrum".

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Lew

Gentlemen

Since there is no real proof that the European style of sword and buckler evolved from Omani style can we just conclude that they evolved separately from each other and leave it at that? It seems to me that that this type of fighting system Was designed with a great deal of strategic thought and basic common sense by both cultures which often used in duels as a way to settle various personal desputes. In my opinion both cultures developed these systems out of necessity in order to deal certain aspects of there warrior based societies.

Salaams Lew,
For now since we are without precise proof of technology transfer from East to West, I think it wise to leave the facts so far discussed on Forum record and with the proviso that should further evidence arise it can be debated afresh.

Bucklers and Swords (Terrs wa Sayf) are inherent in the study of Omani Arms as they were in use against the Abbasids in the 8th Century A.D. and continue today in the traditional "Omani Funun".

Notwithstanding that; the thread develops quite alarmingly with the discovery of a significant Algerian bladestamp mark on what was considered as a Saudia or Yemeni Sayf.

On the table we also have an interesting peripheral "Kaskara-Sayf" from Atlantia.

The main thrust of the discussion, however, turns toward the dilemma of the (Omani) European Trade Blade. Fact or fiction?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

The main thrust of the discussion, however, turns toward the dilemma of the (Omani) European Trade Blade. Fact or fiction?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I've previously posted a few examples with blades bearing the running wolf of Passau and later Solingen...

Here, again, one of the more compelling examples. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...is-a-good-deal

Keep in mind what I have access to is simply what is online via Google or similar, there are many swords held in private collections around the world by individuals who may have never released photographs online. Chances are there are many more.

Even if some of the wolf marks are local copies, you have to account for where the idea to use the mark came from. Whether period travelers and Europeans present in the area noted it or not, I think it is pretty undeniable European blades were present in the area. But I feel like I've made these points before...

The exact time periods and routes these blades arrived from, are out of my area I'm afraid. But I look forward to those that are continuing to research it.

All the best,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

I've previously posted a few examples with blades bearing the running wolf of Passau and later Solingen...

Here, again, one of the more compelling examples. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...is-a-good-deal

Keep in mind what I have access to is simply what is online via Google or similar, there are many swords held in private collections around the world by individuals who may have never released photographs online. Chances are there are many more.

Even if some of the wolf marks are local copies, you have to account for where the idea to use the mark came from. Whether period travelers and Europeans present in the area noted it or not, I think it is pretty undeniable European blades were present in the area. But I feel like I've made these points before...

The exact time periods and routes these blades arrived from, are out of my area I'm afraid. But I look forward to those that are continuing to research it.

All the best,

Iain

Salaams Iain, Yes thats fine but they are not Omani European Trade Blades..what they are is African European Trade Blades. They are entirely different blades. The Omani blade of so called approximate 18thC introduction and superceding the Omani Old Battle Sayf is a complete all in one blade hilt pommel steel weapon with fullers (one two or three) moreover it is flexible to 90 degrees returning to straight immediately. Blades like the one at your reference are thicker blades normally ending in a point and not flexible say other than perhaps 10% ~ The addition of the running wolf is interesting and I have seen an Omani blade with a similar mark but caution ... Where was the mark carried out; locally or where? I suspect somewhere in Africa to bolster the price in the case of the African weapons and in the case of the Omani example in the Muscat Museum probably in Oman..and noted in the Museum as a fake mark. The running wolf is after all the simplest to copy. The blade at your reference looks like one of the Saudia, Yemeni (or possibly African)or perhaps Algerian blades I have previously noted and at #1 to this thread and discussed at # 176... mainly concerning Michael Blalocks sword indicating an Algerian provenance to its blademark.
No evidence whatsoever save some comments quite possibly copied in error and duplicated in a few quite prestigious publications in the last century mention anything to do with Omani European Trade Blades... emphasis on Omani since African Trade Blades are well known.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Hi Ibrahiim,

If you want to make that distinction (and I don't worry I understand why because of the functionality needed for the dance you commented on a lot previously ) there has to be a reason what you are terming African trade blades are showing up in Omani mounts and while I certainly don't have the cultural insight you have, I am a little lost then as to why, if the flexibility is so important, stiffer blades seem to have been used as well... Is the flexibility what makes the sword truly Omani in your opinion? Because judging from the examples I'm posting there seems to be no problem with Omanis using stiffer blades...

One thought that immediately strikes me is if the flexible blades are a local development from the stiffer general trade blades? And of course that was part of my point with the wolf marks, they are easy to copy and show clear European influence in some of these blades.

Just in case I never added this one earlier in the thread, here's another one that sold a while back at a Czech auction house.

http://www.antiq.cz/aukce/m-n/katalog6-98/en/528.html

[fernando]

These stone sculptures abound in Portugal. At least some thirty of these statues were found in various places, some of them with epigraphic texts. They represent Galaico Lusitanian warriors. Estraban (63-24 BC) writes about the Lusitanians, mentioning that it was said that they were good ambushers and track followers, using shields two feet wide, of concave shape and straped to the body, having no handles... and that these were used together with a dagger or a gladius.

.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim,

If you want to make that distinction (and I don't worry I understand why because of the functionality needed for the dance you commented on a lot previously ) there has to be a reason what you are terming African trade blades are showing up in Omani mounts and while I certainly don't have the cultural insight you have, I am a little lost then as to why, if the flexibility is so important, stiffer blades seem to have been used as well... Is the flexibility what makes the sword truly Omani in your opinion? Because judging from the examples I'm posting there seems to be no problem with Omanis using stiffer blades...

One thought that immediately strikes me is if the flexible blades are a local development from the stiffer general trade blades? And of course that was part of my point with the wolf marks, they are easy to copy and show clear European influence in some of these blades.

Just in case I never added this one earlier in the thread, here's another one that sold a while back at a Czech auction house.

http://www.antiq.cz/aukce/m-n/katalog6-98/en/528.html

Salaams Iain ... Your reference is like #1 to this thread and could be by origin African Red Sea (Yemeni or Saudia) or related to Mamluke or an Algerian derivative. It apparently has the wolf too... like other examples I have handled the wolf is a diversionary mark intended to hoist the price. The description on your reference states and I quote:

"Sword blade from a cavalry sword, Passau wolf mark in the lower part of the double-edged blade, point rounded later, wooden grip bound with leather and ornamental silver wire, made in central Africa, blade - 16th/17th cent., hilt - early 19th century, length 97 cm, length of blade 78 cm" Unquote.

The information is very sketchy and only half believable. The only thing vaguelly Omani about this Sayf is the hilt. Though I dont have the sword in front of me I can see that it is as the # 1 in style... Thick inflexible blade with a point. Omani blades are by definition spatulate tipped and very springy... as I say a 90 degree bend is normal.

Regarding the New Omani Sayf of circa 18th C and said to be a European Trade Blade ~The vital ingredient of these Omani Sayfs is their flexibility, spatulate tip and on a long hilt. If it is stiff or pointed it is not Omani.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

These stone sculptures abound in Portugal. At least some thirty of these statues were found in various places, some of them with epigraphic texts. They represent Galaico Lusitanian warriors. Estraban (63-24 BC) writes about the Lusitanians, mentioning that it was said that they were good ambushers and track followers, using shields two feet wide, of concave shape and straped to the body, having no handles... and that these were used together with a dagger or a gladius.

.

Salaams fernando ~ I had no idea that the Portuguese were originally Celtic. I note that they were "Romanised" in the second century and wondered if their weapon systems carried on or were superceded by the Roman. I think the Greek short sword is likely to be responsible for the transmission via the Abassids to this peninsula...Oman...via the Abassid garrisoned and fighting here and because the Abbasids were obsessed with everything Greek. Thank you for your input, which is, as always, thought provoking and interesting.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain ... Your reference is like #1 to this thread and could be by origin African Red Sea (Yemeni or Saudia) or related to Mamluke or an Algerian derivative. It apparently has the wolf too... like other examples I have handled the wolf is a diversionary mark intended to hoist the price. The description on your reference states and I quote:

"Sword blade from a cavalry sword, Passau wolf mark in the lower part of the double-edged blade, point rounded later, wooden grip bound with leather and ornamental silver wire, made in central Africa, blade - 16th/17th cent., hilt - early 19th century, length 97 cm, length of blade 78 cm" Unquote.

The information is very sketchy and only half believable. The only thing vaguelly Omani about this Sayf is the hilt. Though I dont have the sword in front of me I can see that it is as the # 1 in style... Thick inflexible blade with a point. Omani blades are by definition spatulate tipped and very springy... as I say a 90 degree bend is normal.

Regarding the New Omani Sayf of circa 18th C and said to be a European Trade Blade ~The vital ingredient of these Omani Sayfs is their flexibility, spatulate tip and on a long hilt. If it is stiff or pointed it is not Omani.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

So just to clarify you are saying the two examples I have just linked (which have rounded tips) are not Omani, meaning they were not used in Oman by Omanis? I think this is an important point to be stated clearly, that unless it's flexible it cannot have anything to do with Oman?

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The Straight Omani Sayf.

Salaams all, I have not yet seen a single straight Omani Sayf with a European mark on it save one with a fake running wolf mark.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

So just to clarify you are saying the two examples I have just linked (which have rounded tips) are not Omani, meaning they were not used in Oman by Omanis? I think this is an important point to be stated clearly, that unless it's flexible it cannot have anything to do with Oman?

Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain, Yes. The stiff examples are not Omani. They are from Saudia, Yemen, Algeria, probably derived from Mamluke...but not Omani.
Ibrahiim.

Afternote ~ That does not rule out a sword being hilted with an Omani long handle and used by an Omani trader, slaver or individual on the African coast in the Zanzibar hub. I am certain you will agree with that possibility though obviously that does not qualify the weapon as Omani proper. I think they qualify as hybrid being a crossbreed of the above styles.

[Iain]

Please delete. Was answered above.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Iain

So just to clarify you are saying the two examples I have just linked (which have rounded tips) are not Omani, meaning they were not used in Oman by Omanis? I think this is an important point to be stated clearly, that unless it's flexible it cannot have anything to do with Oman?

Cheers,

Iain

I have to agree that some clarity is needed here Ibrahiim.
Could I expand on Iain's request and ask that for those who haven't followed this epic threads many pages as closely as those heavily involved, could we (I) possibly have a summary of the points that you are proposing, set out as concise and short a list as possible?

Thanks
Gene

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I have to agree that some clarity is needed here Ibrahiim.
Could I expand on Iain's request and ask that for those who haven't followed this epic threads many pages as closely as those heavily involved, could we (I) possibly have a summary of the points that you are proposing, set out as concise and short a list as possible?

Thanks
Gene

Salaams Gene ... If you read back through the thread you will see I do that at intervals since this is as you point out somewhat complicated.

I believe it may be enlightening to look at Michael Blalocks thread in unison at his Arabian Swords # 1 where the Red Sea interloper sword is pictured cased in a Yemeni military museum.

Meanwhile I will outline the arguement tomorrow as its near midnight here... and hopefully set the position straight... On the straight Sayf !
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... I had no idea that the Portuguese were originally Celtic. ...

So you never wondered how we have some regions where they play the bagpipe

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... I note that they were "Romanised" in the second century ...

Did you say "Romanized" or "Omanized" ? ... just a joke
Quite a few folks, since Naenderthal and followed by Modern man, stood in the queue to leave their ADN in the Peninsula ... some more to the South, others more to the North and even others by the Coast, like the Phoenitians in Balsa, now called Tavira, in Southern Portugal.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... and wondered if their weapon systems carried on or were superceded by the Roman.

The usual swaps, as always happens when a people crosses with another. One that became quite famous was what the Romans admired and called Gladius Hispaniensis (at the time they named the whole Peninsula as Hispania). This was the so called Falcata Iberica (Ensis Flacatus); its eficiency in combat and its temper were so good that it took the Romans to reinforce their shield rims and body armour, during the second Punic wars and later conquest of Hispania. It is highly probable that their Gladius had its later structure and form influenced by this Iberian sword.
I am too lazy to search what weaponry we might have copied from the Romans, besides their influence in all other fields ... house roof tiles, roads, aqueducts, you name it. [/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... I think the Greek short sword is likely to be responsible for the transmission via the Abassids to this peninsula ...

If you are referring to the kopis, such actually wasn't brought over as, swords of this (sickle) type, were developed in various regions by local initiative, as also happened with the Nepalese Kukri.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... the Abbasids were obsessed with everything Greek...

The Arabs only came around by the 8th century, after another long queue, starting by the Romans and, after their decadence, a series of Germanic branches, Suevos, Vandals and lately the Visigods.
But naturally we adopted some of their weapon shapes and possible entire models. Moor cavalry performance and weapon resources were one of the best. In the other fields, i wonder if their influence was even greater than that of the Romans ... Agriculture, Irrigation, Fruit variety, Medicine, Poetry, to name a few.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... Thank you for your input...

Nothing to thank for. My post was only a small addition to what was said by Ariel and Lew in that, parrying devices (shields, bucklers) were used by all men during all time, each one according to their intuition.

Sorry guys, for the extensive fait divers ... and for delocalizing a bit the epicenter of the topic .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

So you never wondered how we have some regions where they play the bagpipe


Did you say "Romanized" or "Omanized" ? ... just a joke
Quite a few folks, since Naenderthal and followed by Modern man, stood in the queue to leave their ADN in the Peninsula ... some more to the South, others more to the North and even others by the Coast, like the Phoenitians in Balsa, now called Tavira, in Southern Portugal.


The usual swaps, as always happens when a people crosses with another. One that became quite famous was what the Romans admired and called Gladius Hispaniensis (at the time they named the whole Peninsula as Hispania). This was the so called Falcata Iberica (Ensis Flacatus); its eficiency in combat and its temper were so good that it took the Romans to reinforce their shield rims and body armour, during the second Punic wars and later conquest of Hispania. It is highly probable that their Gladius had its later structure and form influenced by this Iberian sword.
I am too lazy to search what weaponry we might have copied from the Romans, besides their influence in all other fields ... house roof tiles, roads, aqueducts, you name it.


If you are referring to the kopis, such actually wasn't brought over as, swords of this (sickle) type, were developed in various regions by local initiative, as also happened with the Nepalese Kukri.


The Arabs only came around by the 8th century, after another long queue, starting by the Romans and, after their decadence, a series of Germanic branches, Suevos, Vandals and lately the Visigods.
But naturally we adopted some of their weapon shapes and possible entire models. Moor cavalry performance and weapon resources were one of the best. In the other fields, i wonder if their influence was even greater than that of the Romans ... Agriculture, Irrigation, Fruit variety, Medicine, Poetry, to name a few.


Nothing to thank for. My post was only a small addition to what was said by Ariel and Lew in that, parrying devices (shields, bucklers) were used by all men during all time, each one according to their intuition.

Sorry guys, for the extensive fait divers ... and for delocalizing a bit the epicenter of the topic .

Salaams Fernando,
Once again we are endebted for this interesting excursion, however, as Lew and I have both indicated; the Terrs and Sayf insofar as technology transfer is concerned is a bridge too far at this time.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all. As a note to Forum as an update I advise the following?;

* The Straight Omani Sword is called Sayf.
* The Curved Omani sword is called Kattara.

The Omani Sayf has two parts to its life:
1. As an old Omani Battle Sword (Sayf) (affectionately known as Sayf Yamani) with turned down quillons pointed pommel short handle, stiff thick wing-like in "cross section blade construction" and pointed. This was a stab-slash-chop weapon, reigning supreme in Oman since arguably the mid 8thC AD (751)and in the Abbasid Style... until it was "apparently" superceded by a European Trade Blade in approximately the 18thC. A.D.
Both systems used the Buckler Shield. Both are called Sayf.

2. As the 18thC European Trade Blade replacement weapon and retaining the Buckler Shield inherriting the name Sayf; The sword was very different from its fore runner and comprised of a Tang Pommel and Long Blade as "all in one" construction and very flexible... bending almost through 90 degrees from the point and spatula tipped on a very long handle. No quillons. This was a slash and snick weapon. It continues to be produced locally today.

Vital to the understanding of the weapons history is the method by which it was passed down the generations through the Funoon an enacted pageant comprising life events; trade, farming, seafaring and war.

The flexible sword introduced at 2 above fell into that category of parade and dance item required in the Funoon pageant whilst retaining a fighting style and mimiced as a kind of combat form in the funoon called Razha and Ayaalah.. or sword dance. An exponent must be able to move quickly and buzz the sword by various ingenious flicks of the wrist where the blade can be used almost like a whip and when used as a group creates a very menacing ritual. Important that a blade be flexible and not stiff. When selecting a sword the first thing an exponent looks for is the flexibility... Trying to make a stiff sword hum and buzz is impossible ...
If its not flexible its not an Omani Sayf of approx. 18th C or after.

Swords coming from the Egyptian Mamluke era down the Red Sea and influencing Saudia and Yemeni weapons look similar to Omani Sayf but as recorded in the Yemeni Military Museum by Michael Blalocks Arabian Swords #1 they are thick inflexible blades and pointed. Similar blades are at # 47 and # 81 of this thread. I believe that this is purely coincidental and in keeping with Abassid> Mamluke >Ottoman technology copy.

I have examined the gunmark upon an Algerian weapon at this thread #176 and it is identical in form to the Michael Blalock item which in turn is similar to the weapon at # 1 on this thread. Though on reflection I think that one is Omani with odd out of area stamps; probably fake. They may be Red Sea hybrids but they are not Omani. I will repeat my comment that this does not mean that an Omani person did not own or use a variant transferred to an Omani long handle but that that type of sword is not of Oman. Rehilting does not automatically change the ethnographic origin of a sword if at all..

It is known that European Trade Blades flooded into Africa and many examples exist, however, no proof other than mention of European Trade Blades in Oman from various sources and publications (which I believe are entirely routinely plagiarisms of fact copied by authors and museums for the last 200 years)

This debate therefor runs into a conundrum. 18thC Omani Sayf; European Trade Blades; Fact or Fiction?

On Fact;
I find nothing to substantiate the theory that Oman imported European Trade Blades except in the reference books noted above and verbatum rolling out of same same theory from museums and others.

On Fiction;
1. No genuine European Sword Blade Marks have yet been found on any Omani Sayf viewed. Conversely many blades have local marks and or copies of Raj stamps. The odd weapon has a running woolf at Muscat Museum though it is fake.
2. No actual literature providing proof exists.
3. None of the visiting European dignatories mentioned in this thread and over the last two centuries have ever mentioned European Trade Blades when confronted by Omani Sayf... and the advisor to the Governor at Zanzibar from about 1900 though he mentions Omani Swordsmen and the dancing routine does not substantiate their origin. Surely he would have known?
4. No peripheral signs ~ The Red Sea variants are totally different; being thick, pointy and unflexible save for perhaps 5 degree bendability. Should we not expect to find Omani Swords littering the museums and souks in the Red Sea area? European Trade Blades are scattered all over Africa but Omani Sayf...nowhere else except Oman.
5. Local manufacture is proven in Ras Al Khaimah and Al Ain and likely to be substantial in Nizwa well known for smelting copper and well advanced in bellows useage for iron and steel items and agricultural tools. If they were making Sayf here why would they need imported weapons?
6. As a statement of pure conjecture I feel that a sword which had gained Iconic and virtual Heraldic symbolism up to about 200 years ago ~ and having been a system in place previously for 1000 years or more ~ for it to be suddenly replaced by a European Trade Blade makes no sense to me at all. Therefor I add that as a comment to the bewildering nature in this conundrum now at the core of research on the subject..

Pictured below are the Old Sayf, centre, with turned down quillons flanked by the new version in the 18thC format.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; It seems that there were actually 2 blades replacing the old Sayf : One in the 17th C (perhaps) and the other in the 18thC debated here. It seems that the 17th C blade(which I have not found an example of yet) was a thin variant of the old blade and was fitted to the old hilt. Whilst this may turn out to be myth I mention it as a note.

[Iain]

Thanks for clarifying your position Ibrahiim.

Just a couple questions for you, just to stimulation the discussion, I am neither on one side of the fence or the other on your question of trade blades, I just find the discussion interesting, so please don't take this as an attack on your research. I realized we've discussed some of these issues before but as you posted a new summary I think it is important to come back to them.

• If not for outside European influences who do local versions of the running wolf occur, like this example which should be, by your definition I think a "real and local" Omani sayf: http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1971

• How would you account for the use of triple fullers and half moon stamps like on this example: http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=2700 Features in other African sword forms derived directly from European trade blades.

• Why would the older short sayf form be replaced at all if not for a dramatic outside influence? If the tradition and symbolism of the original sword was so important? Why else would it suddenly change?

• Can you maybe explain for us why flexibility would be important in a sayf not just for the dance but also combat? A lot of your definition hangs on this point and I am unsure of how far back it is possible to accurately trace this preference for flexible blades? Is it not possible the preference for flexibility and the buzzing sound is a more modern (by modern I mean as the sword declined in importance for combat as firearms took over) requirement due to the dance aspect? I would be surprised if in earlier periods the need for the sword to buzz when swung would be considered over steel quality.

Perhaps a good way to sum up what I am trying to say is, could it perhaps be said that the long sayf, flexible form, are not European trade blades, but a local imitation of trade blades, adapted to be flexible and fulfill the requirements of the Razha and Ayaalah?

I am not an expert in the hilts of the region but I find it very odd to assume that based on blade flexibility alone everything with an actual trade blade could be conclusively written off as not Omani while the genuine Omani swords retain many of the exact same features (fullers and stamps) as the trade blades. At some point for flexible blades, influenced by trade blades, to be made, someone had to think the original trade blades had a lot of good features...

Just some points to think about.

All the best,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Thanks for clarifying your position Ibrahiim.

Just a couple questions for you, just to stimulation the discussion, I am neither on one side of the fence or the other on your question of trade blades, I just find the discussion interesting, so please don't take this as an attack on your research. I realized we've discussed some of these issues before but as you posted a new summary I think it is important to come back to them.

• If not for outside European influences who do local versions of the running wolf occur, like this example which should be, by your definition I think a "real and local" Omani sayf: http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1971

• How would you account for the use of triple fullers and half moon stamps like on this example: http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=2700 Features in other African sword forms derived directly from European trade blades.

• Why would the older short sayf form be replaced at all if not for a dramatic outside influence? If the tradition and symbolism of the original sword was so important? Why else would it suddenly change?

• Can you maybe explain for us why flexibility would be important in a sayf not just for the dance but also combat? A lot of your definition hangs on this point and I am unsure of how far back it is possible to accurately trace this preference for flexible blades? Is it not possible the preference for flexibility and the buzzing sound is a more modern (by modern I mean as the sword declined in importance for combat as firearms took over) requirement due to the dance aspect? I would be surprised if in earlier periods the need for the sword to buzz when swung would be considered over steel quality.

Perhaps a good way to sum up what I am trying to say is, could it perhaps be said that the long sayf, flexible form, are not European trade blades, but a local imitation of trade blades, adapted to be flexible and fulfill the requirements of the Razha and Ayaalah?

I am not an expert in the hilts of the region but I find it very odd to assume that based on blade flexibility alone everything with an actual trade blade could be conclusively written off as not Omani while the genuine Omani swords retain many of the exact same features (fullers and stamps) as the trade blades. At some point for flexible blades, influenced by trade blades, to be made, someone had to think the original trade blades had a lot of good features...

Just some points to think about.

All the best,

Iain

Salaams Iain and thank you for some excellent observations ! Last point first; This is a vital point " To perform the Funoon the blade has to be flexible" ie if it is a stiff inflexible blade it is not Omani. On balance probably Yemeni possibly Saudia or even Algerian and likely to be Mamluke influenced. In the Sayf it does have fullers which make the sword lighter and more flexible... and stamps though none which are other than Omani origin... except fakes.. done to raise the price or for prestige. I dont see any trade blade examples which the Omanis may have copied as they are so different...being tang pommel and blade in a specific Omani format...

If they are not European Trade Blades they must be either local or from somewhere close...I look at India, Sri Lanka, Persia and Yemen without success ... yet.. though if I was to hazzard a guess I would say maybe Yemen fits the cloak or more logically Oman itself ie Nizwa !

Flexibility.. As I say this is parmount in importance. Certainly this is a good point since for example comparing plain steel with wootz which is not used save for a few omani Sayf that RSWORD knows of that I put down to dignatories and or merchants having commissioned from wootz centres say Hyderabad or elsewhere.(and RSWORD will tell you there may well be more of these hidden under unpolished blades.) The Omanis dont seem to have bothered with wootz on either Swords or Khanjars. The flexible razor sharp whip bladed springy steel Sayf seemed to be the form.
The point about its decline as a fighting weapon and its preference as more of a Pageantry and symbolic display is key however I have no idea on precise timescale but suggest late 1700 early 1800 as the beginning of the new system which could have been gradual say over 50 to 100 years. Certainly both old and new Sayfs were Iconic and seen on pictures earlier in this thread on various Sultans waists into the 20th C..

Why would the older short sayf form be replaced ~ That baffles me as well. The only ideas I have on that is tied into the pageantry aspect and because there werent enough old swords left... and they were difficult to produce. I see the old sword overlapping into the new sword timescale by perhaps 150 years or more... I imagine a gradual swing to the new "dancing blade".

Fullers and moon stamps. Fullering was a common enough technical advance in sword making so I see no reason why the Omanis didn't cotton on to the idea via trade etc. Moons are Islamic though I dont see them on Omani Sayf much as I recall.. but often on Red Sea variants.

Meanwhile I look up your references:
The first http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1971 is an Omani Sayf ! not a Kattara and it carries a fake stamp running woolf. It is Omani with fullers.

Your second reference is another Omani Sayf (not a Kattara... Kattaras are curved) It has 3 fullers and a peculiar two moon strike that I have never seen before but which are probably fake.

Both the weapons are Omani Sayf ... Flexible long bladed, long hilts and neither carrying any proof of origin to European Trade Blades since the marks are likely fakes.

Shukran.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Hi Ibrahiim,

Your points are clear and I'm glad you are acknowledging the flexibility issue is driven by dance not combat needs. I think since you aren't sure of a timeline, that perhaps you are assigning this need to a far earlier period than necessary.

Do you have or have you examined a circa 18th century flexible long sayf blade? Pictures?

I think by assuming the flexibility requirement goes that far back you are removing the key evidence for the long form sayf.

Regarding if hilting a blade changes the ethnicity, I would say yes, because it means the sword was accepted into that ethnicity. Otherwise there is no way to include European blades into your Omani sayf definition at all - you have ruled them out with your criteria. That's why I would say I have a takouba with a European blade, the hilting turns it into a takouba and a sword of the Hausa/Tuareg/Fulani/whatever. Hilting is the process of adopting a blade locally.

Regarding fullers and marks:

On marks, there is no reason to make them to enhance the perceived value of the blade if the original European blades were not already in use and perceived as valuable. So if we have flexible blades with fake marks it clearly points out the fact that the original European blades were respected and desired locally - otherwise no reason to copy the marks. So I don't really care if the marks are fake or not, they wouldn't exist if Omanis were using European blades and associating the marks with quality. If there was no trade blade influence, you wouldn't find the marks at all, there would be no reason for Omani smiths to copy them. Are there marks on the short old sayf type in the same style? Not that I've ever seen, somehow and from somewhere the idea to start using blade marks arrived.

Fullers, the triple fuller configuration in conjunction with the half moon stamps (and these half moons have a face which I do not believe is a typical Islamic illustration?) are a very well known pattern. That it would appear in Oman, at roughly the same time period as the Sahel and other areas, in exactly the same pattern, without being directly related to the European imports, really seems to defy logic. Just too many coincidences. This matches up exactly with the examples I linked and you acknowledge are Omani.

I realize your skepticism has a sound base in having not found any European blades in swords that are Omani in your system, but I have to think this is only because you have set the criteria in your system in such a way that you will never find any because you are not counting the stiffer blades. We've already seen at least one example of how the tangs and long hilts are combined on trade blades.

The way you've structured the progression there is a hole in the transition from a pretty specific style of short sword to a long blade with some pretty striking characteristics which happen to line up perfectly with European blades found in the area, except for stiffness. Remove the reliance on having to say an Omani blade flexes to around 90 degrees (by the way do the short swords do this?) and you remove the hole and have a clear progression where elements of European trade blades were copied into a new Omani form that provided the flexibility needed for the dance.

I really just don't see how there is any other conclusion for fake wolf stamps, triple fullers with twin moon stamps and the like popping up in Omani swords, not to mention a switch to a sword length that matches up nicely with the European exports.

For me the issue is not in finding the mythical flexible long form sayf export blade from Europe, but in understanding why and how that form was developed locally and what influences led to the dramatic change in form.

As always, just some friendly ideas and comments.

All the best,

Iain

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by ariel

Hi Ibrahim,
What do you think of this one?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/400240311416#ht_1488wt_1348

Before it falls through the cracks.....

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Before it falls through the cracks.....

Salaams freebooter is there a stamp on the blade?

This is the classic old Omani stiff pointed short sword...Sayf..Tied to the origin of species at 751 AD and rolling on for over 1000 years. Local name for the Omani Short ... Sayf Yamani.

The forerunner to the flexible sword. Both called Sayf and both using the Terrs shield.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; I have two like this with no stamp. I suspect Yemen as the manufacturing base or Nizwa... Investigating the latter now. The 3 holes in the hilt for securing the hilt to a wooden core whilst the 3rd near the octagonal pommel for a wriststrap. See my comparison on this thread to the Abassid weapon.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim,

Your points are clear and I'm glad you are acknowledging the flexibility issue is driven by dance not combat needs. I think since you aren't sure of a timeline, that perhaps you are assigning this need to a far earlier period than necessary.

Do you have or have you examined a circa 18th century flexible long sayf blade? Pictures?

I think by assuming the flexibility requirement goes that far back you are removing the key evidence for the long form sayf.

Regarding if hilting a blade changes the ethnicity, I would say yes, because it means the sword was accepted into that ethnicity. Otherwise there is no way to include European blades into your Omani sayf definition at all - you have ruled them out with your criteria. That's why I would say I have a takouba with a European blade, the hilting turns it into a takouba and a sword of the Hausa/Tuareg/Fulani/whatever. Hilting is the process of adopting a blade locally.

Regarding fullers and marks:

On marks, there is no reason to make them to enhance the perceived value of the blade if the original European blades were not already in use and perceived as valuable. So if we have flexible blades with fake marks it clearly points out the fact that the original European blades were respected and desired locally - otherwise no reason to copy the marks. So I don't really care if the marks are fake or not, they wouldn't exist if Omanis were using European blades and associating the marks with quality. If there was no trade blade influence, you wouldn't find the marks at all, there would be no reason for Omani smiths to copy them. Are there marks on the short old sayf type in the same style? Not that I've ever seen, somehow and from somewhere the idea to start using blade marks arrived.

Fullers, the triple fuller configuration in conjunction with the half moon stamps (and these half moons have a face which I do not believe is a typical Islamic illustration?) are a very well known pattern. That it would appear in Oman, at roughly the same time period as the Sahel and other areas, in exactly the same pattern, without being directly related to the European imports, really seems to defy logic. Just too many coincidences. This matches up exactly with the examples I linked and you acknowledge are Omani.

I realize your skepticism has a sound base in having not found any European blades in swords that are Omani in your system, but I have to think this is only because you have set the criteria in your system in such a way that you will never find any because you are not counting the stiffer blades. We've already seen at least one example of how the tangs and long hilts are combined on trade blades.

The way you've structured the progression there is a hole in the transition from a pretty specific style of short sword to a long blade with some pretty striking characteristics which happen to line up perfectly with European blades found in the area, except for stiffness. Remove the reliance on having to say an Omani blade flexes to around 90 degrees (by the way do the short swords do this?) and you remove the hole and have a clear progression where elements of European trade blades were copied into a new Omani form that provided the flexibility needed for the dance.

I really just don't see how there is any other conclusion for fake wolf stamps, triple fullers with twin moon stamps and the like popping up in Omani swords, not to mention a switch to a sword length that matches up nicely with the European exports.

For me the issue is not in finding the mythical flexible long form sayf export blade from Europe, but in understanding why and how that form was developed locally and what influences led to the dramatic change in form.

As always, just some friendly ideas and comments.

All the best,

Iain

Salaams Iain ~ I agree with most of your post. You are correct in assuming my scepticism since I have not found a single piece of evidence that a European Trade Blade exists in Oman.

Much of the discussion revolves around what you say and is as yet largely unresolved. The important thing for me is to keep an open mind since there is such fragile evidence for local manufacture and even less scant clue as to the European Trade Blade import story.

Fake Stamps. The Muscat Museum insists that the woolf stamp on their 19th C Long Omani Sayf is fake. I believe it is . I have seen other fake stamps on the thick blade variants from what I believe is Yemeni/Saudia sword identical to the one shown in the Yemeni Military Museum. Faking blade marks is legion here... I would say the majority of swords here carry fake markings. As I say prestige and price are likely candidates. I show a swathe of fake marks on this thread Raj Crowns, God is Great, stars et al on #98... they are nearly all shoved on for show or to fake provenance or raise the price. Odd in its own right since thay are true Omani Swords but left to individual swordmakers they seem to think it makes the item more attractive (there is something in that from the cosmetic viewpoint). I handled a sword in Muscat Souk for which I have a photo and that too was a Red Sea job fake marked with the easily copied passau woolf. It only requires a decent chisel and a mallet and its about 15 small strikes to copy.. as you know the mark is quite randomly done even on originals so it is a cinch to copy..

Timescale. Naturally this is a vital question but is as yet not pinpointed, though, you will see quotes on this thread from European visitors mentioning the blades likeness to Scotish claymores...at the Hormus Garrison in the early 1800s etc. viz;

1.In 1878 a Mr Geary (editor of the Times of India) visited Muscat and wrote of the weapons he saw carried by locals ~ A favourite weapon is a straight broad two-handed sword, the sweep of which would take off a man's thigh or even cut him in two at the waist.The swordsmen carried over their shoulder small shields of rhinoceros horn 8 or 9 inches in diameter....

2.Captain James Welstead in 1835 at Jalaan Bani Bu Ali (on the Eastern edge of the Wahaybah) remarked on the Funoon, Razha, sword parade and dance that the blades of their swords are 3 feet in length, straight, thin, double edged and as sharp as a razor.

3.Mr Frazer who also visited Hormuz in 1821 (and Oman at the same time as Welstead in about 1835) described The Omani Garrison at Hormuz swords as similar to Scotish Broadswords and also described separately in Oman later the Ters buckler shields..


Flexibility of blade. Vital. Not flexible not Omani and must be spatulate tipped not pointed ~ To date I have not handled a stiff dancing blade (my terminology since I can see how lethal they are as fighting swords also). Old blades Sayf Yamani are completely stiff and pointed. Is it simply down to fashion that bendy blades took over...in a suggested broad timescale of say 150 years...and a new fighting and dancing technique was cemented in behind that?

European Trade Blade or European Trade Blade Influence. There is a huge difference. I have been fed the Trade Blade theory of ships camel trains etc bringing great quantities of German blades to Oman and either direct or via one of the hubs possibly Zanzibar. For proof I continue to search and if a single jot appears I will report on that. As it stands at the moment it looks like a myth !

Parallel with investigating imports I must also look for local manufacture. (it could be both) The timescale is as baffling to me as the unbelievable change in style.. All we know is that it happened.

From what you are saying ~ It seems logical that a way out for the long stiff blades may be as an interim blade between the Old Omani Short and the Long flexible item. Though I bear this in mind it does only seem to be in Red Sea variants which I associate with Mamluke, Saudia, Yemeni variants and with the addition of my earlier evidence showing possible Algerian influence/manufacture.

If it is proven that the Omani European Trade Blade is a myth could it be that the Omanis copied a long blade Red Sea variant into their history books...and gave it a flexible blade and spatulate tip?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

If it is proven that the Omani European Trade Blade is a myth could it be that the Omanis copied a long blade Red Sea variant into their history books...and gave it a flexible blade and spatulate tip?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

This seems the only logical way to approach the issue to me. If the flexible blades weren't imported, and it seems they weren't. Then you have to account for:

• Fake stamps, obviously copied from European stamps and only introduced into the local Omani swords because the stamps represented something that was respected and recognized locally

• Style of fullers and blade length

• Presence of typical trade blades in surrounding areas

• dramatic change in style and adoption of a totally new sword form corresponding closely with European trade blade profiles

I'm still interested in the sayfs with genuine trade blades that I've linked before, previously you discounted them as Omani based only on the blades, but is there a way to distinguish the hilts regionally? Perhaps I misunderstood you previous comments on them but it seemed you were saying they couldn't be Omani not based on the hilts, but because the blades were stiff.

I'm still not convinced the stiff blades weren't in use in Oman. As you said, the old short sword has a stiff blade, so there's no reason an Omani would object to a stiff European blade...

Basically it seems to me the most logical answer is that the flexible blades are designed to fit the dance (which is not to say they still wouldn't deliver a nasty cut, I'm sure they do!) and were adapted from European trade blades already present in the region. From the quotes you included in your last post it would seem these local flexible blades would have been in use by the early 1800s.

I think that's the most that can be said from the available data. Probably we are never going to agree entirely but I think we are getting closer.

There is no need to look for a flexible Omani specific trade blade probably.

Cheers,

Iain

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams freebooter is there a stamp on the blade?

This is the classic old Omani stiff pointed short sword...Sayf..Tied to the origin of species at 751 AD and rolling on for over 1000 years. Local name for the Omani Short ... Sayf Yamani.

The forerunner to the flexible sword. Both called Sayf and both using the Terrs shield.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; I have two like this with no stamp. I suspect Yemen as the manufacturing base or Nizwa... Investigating the latter now. The 3 holes in the hilt for securing the hilt to a wooden core whilst the 3rd near the octagonal pommel for a wriststrap. See my comparison on this thread to the Abassid weapon.

Dear Ibrahiim, I have simply provided the images from a previous link posted...the sword is I believe Ariels

There sabre version of the Oman sword has been discussed as perhaps being influenced by EU and Caucasian blades.
Was silverwork on these sabres also "perhaps" influenced through this trade? I ask as I have a fine Omani sabre with the correct "native" blade that has silverwork in the style of, although not executed as well as Dagestan silver work found on some Shashka.

Thanks for a wonderful and sometimes mindblowing in depth discussion.

Gav

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Dear Ibrahiim, I have simply provided the images from a previous link posted...the sword is I believe Ariels

There sabre version of the Oman sword has been discussed as perhaps being influenced by EU and Caucasian blades.
Was silverwork on these sabres also "perhaps" influenced through this trade? I ask as I have a fine Omani sabre with the correct "native" blade that has silverwork in the style of, although not executed as well as Dagestan silver work found on some Shashka.

Thanks for a wonderful and sometimes mindblowing in depth discussion.

Gav

Salaams Gav~ Last point first; Omani Silver. Down the ages many countries have influenced Omani Design including Greek, Viking(Early traders in the Med ) adjacent Arab countries and in particular Indian influence on the Oman Coast. Omani silver also contains coins from European countries mainly Austrian and occasionally French Napoleonic coins plus Indian Rupees...As to the silver on the sword We need a photo please? I doubt the Caucaz silver style link ...

I have seen and discussed the possible link connecting Omani Swords to Caucas but that appears on a different weapon altogether from the Sayf being discussed and is clearly a fact. I have a few of those blades but there is no link between them and the so called European Trade Blade i.e. The Omani Long flexible SAYF that I can find.

The old Omani Sayf which apparently Ariel has did appear to have a stamp and I have asked for that previously to be shown clearly so we can examine that but it has not appeared as yet...Perhaps Ariel may be able to show that. It carries the local name Sayf Yamani. I am looking at two ideas; firstly that it was made in the Yemen and secondly that it was made in Nizwa or both or neither. We may never know. A clear view of the stamp would help.

As a spanner in the works there appears to have been a late quite thin blade replacement given to the old hilt perhaps 17th C which I have seen in the Muscat Souk last year(though I ignored that) and I saw a few years ago.

It is on the hit list.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

This seems the only logical way to approach the issue to me. If the flexible blades weren't imported, and it seems they weren't. Then you have to account for:

• Fake stamps, obviously copied from European stamps and only introduced into the local Omani swords because the stamps represented something that was respected and recognized locally

• Style of fullers and blade length

• Presence of typical trade blades in surrounding areas

• dramatic change in style and adoption of a totally new sword form corresponding closely with European trade blade profiles

I'm still interested in the sayfs with genuine trade blades that I've linked before, previously you discounted them as Omani based only on the blades, but is there a way to distinguish the hilts regionally? Perhaps I misunderstood you previous comments on them but it seemed you were saying they couldn't be Omani not based on the hilts, but because the blades were stiff.

I'm still not convinced the stiff blades weren't in use in Oman. As you said, the old short sword has a stiff blade, so there's no reason an Omani would object to a stiff European blade...

Basically it seems to me the most logical answer is that the flexible blades are designed to fit the dance (which is not to say they still wouldn't deliver a nasty cut, I'm sure they do!) and were adapted from European trade blades already present in the region. From the quotes you included in your last post it would seem these local flexible blades would have been in use by the early 1800s.

I think that's the most that can be said from the available data. Probably we are never going to agree entirely but I think we are getting closer.

There is no need to look for a flexible Omani specific trade blade probably.

Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain ~ The flexible long blade will slice an arm off easily. It can deliver slash and snick damage to vital areas in a flash... life expectancy is about 3 cuts and 3 minutes to lose all your blood ! It is a lethal weapon. Hooked up to a fight style I recognise this as a very formidable sword. It just happens to fit the other profile as well i.e. brilliant for dancing with...

The hypothesis looks a bit like this~ Oman had an old battle sword but in about the 18thC another sword style caught their attention; perhaps the Mamluke derivative coming down the Red Sea used in Yemen (Omans southern neighbour and or Algeria and Saudia etc)~Perhaps the Old Sword had outlived its purpose and became redundant because no one could make them anymore or gunpowder had made them redundant.

Could it be that the big heavy non flexing pointed Red Sea sword needed modifying for the smaller in stature Omanis?

It needed to be lighter. Therefore it was fullered and made thin at the point which then became redundant so it was spatula tipped.
To reflect the old weapon it was straight and double razor edged.
It certainly didn't need a quillon system though it can be argued that the cuff is retained in the long hilt.
It had to be a long hilt to balance the long blade.
The pommel weight balance was the final balance needed and in some theres a hole probably to take a wrist cord.
The long flat conical hilt perhaps reflects the old pommel Islamic arch design.
It made total sense to make the weapon as a one piece pommel tang and blade since with the older sword the weak point is vibration up the handle which on the new system is all but eradicated.
Finally it was matched to a quick style using the Terrs Buckler shield linked into the Traditional Funoon pageant and given the same name... Sayf.
Gradually possibly over 150 years the old sayf died out though was itself iconic; seen on the waist of a Sultan Bargash circa1890 at #25 on this thread.

Finally it is plausible that some Omani trader linked in with a European/Indian factory to knock the blades out in larger numbers though without blade stamps. Since then local production has continued.

I caution, however, since hypothesis in historical research is a dangerous road to go down. Forum demands proof.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Hi Ibrahiim,

The hypothesis is starting to sound pretty reasonable to me. Unfortunately in any type of historical research you are often not going to find absolute proof - although I certainly hope you do.

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim,

The hypothesis is starting to sound pretty reasonable to me. Unfortunately in any type of historical research you are often not going to find absolute proof - although I certainly hope you do.

Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain .. We have the weapon... we know who used it... but can we find out who made it and when?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.