keris and spirit

[PenangsangII]

Pak Ganja and other forumites,

The problem with oral tradition is that sometimes the original story and characters or even meaning are lost thru generations. Your lecturer friend indeed made sense, because until now I still dont understand the meaning of Setan Kober.

But there is another probable reason why Arya Penangsang had named his keris Setan Kober. It was said that he went to an empu to commission a powerful keris in anticipation of battle against the famous pusaka belonging to Jaka Tingkir - Kiai Plered. The keris was forged by the empu with the calling of all spirits of Tanah Jawa to reside in it thus the name Setan Kober.

[ganjawulung]

This is another interpretation, related to Ario Penangsang. According to Mr Bambang Harsrinuksmo, the accessory of Javanese bride, laces of jasmine around the bride's keris (see the picture), also related to Ario Penangsang legend.

In the folklore, according to Mr Bambang, Danang Sutawijaya from Pajang succeded to stab the side of Ario Penangsang with his spear Kiai Plered. And the intestines of Ario was hang out of the side. Ario was still upright on his horse, Gagak Rimang. Even, Ario could push Sutawijaya. In the critical situation, Ario wanted to stab Sutawijaya who no longer showed any movement. but unfortunately, the intestines of Ario was cut by his own keris. (See Setan Kober, Kyai -- Ensiklopedi Keris by Bambang Harsrinuksmo)

Sutawijaya, according to Bambang Harsrinuksmo, was very impressed with the heroism of Ario Penangsang. And Sutawijaya realised, he was "saved" by the good fortune. He then ordered all his descents to respect the heroism of Ario Penangsang. The laces of jasmine in every Javanese bride's keris, is only a symbol for such honor to Penangsang...

Ganjawulung

[PenangsangII]

Nice pics

No truer or more genuine compliment / mark of respect / admiration but from your enemy!!!

BTW, all the Tanah Jawa spirits combined still could not save Arya Penangsang from God's plan, and also from himself.....

[HanaChu69]

Good day everyone,

Pak Alan – I hope you don’t mind me asking. Can I know what you did to the 15 troublesome pieces of keris and tombak? Did you allocate a special place for them? Did you neutralize them? I sure hope that they bring you good luck and not trouble.

Penangsang – Believe in fate. No matter how invincible you are. You will surely die one day.

Best regards,
Hana

[A. G. Maisey]

Hana, I did absolutely nothing other than to accept what I was given, and proceed to look after these pieces as I would any others. Some required no work except cleaning and oiling. Others required varying amounts of work. All were put into good condition and simply added to a particular drawer where I keep all wesi aji that is given to me.

No offerings, no neutralisation, no sleeping with them under my pillow, no consultations with wise men.

Nothing except giving them the care and respect they deserved.

They may have been troublesome to some other people, they have been no trouble at all to me.

[Pusaka]

Let’s say it is possible to imbue a blade with an energy field, call it spirit if you like but what type of material would best suit this purpose?

As an analogy I would like to consider the basic bar magnet. There are many types of magnets, natural loadstone, common steel magnetized (the first manufactured magnets), nickel steel and super strong rare earth magnets. The nature of the magnetic field in all of these substances is the same however some materials when energized (magnetized) will retain that magnetism for a longer period of time.
We conclude that it is possible to magnetize several materials but some make better magnets then others.

In terms of magnets what type of material makes the strongest magnet?
As stated previously rare earth magnets are the strongest type of magnets available. One variety of magnet which is extremely strong contains three main ingredients, nickel, ferrite and a rare earth element. The smallest quantity of rare earth element when added to a nickel iron compound will boost its magnetic properties.

Meteorites often contain iron, nickel and rare earth elements. A kris forged from meteorite should be more magnetic then a steel blade.
I was once told that a keris made from meteorite was better able to hold a spirit, I read earlier in this thread that a keris made from meteorite was able to hold a spirit because it is yin.
I will however say that a keris made from meteorite is better because it contains rare earth elements which makes it a suitable object to be energized and retain that original energy for a longer period of time.

All magnets become weak over time if they are not remagnetized, all keris will likewise become weak if their energy if not maintained in a correct manner.

It is not mystical, its Scientific

[David]

Pusaka, nice to hear from you again.
My opinion is this - spirit is not a piece of iron and i don't think magnetic attraction will make any difference...unless you believe it wll. Maybe i do.
When enbuing an object with spirit, the best material to use is the one the best makes some sort of logical sense in the hardwiring of your brain. Spiritual and magickal practices are very personal ones and while we are all influenced by larger cultural concerns what we each believe can sometimes be very specific (and somewhat different from our fellows). Personally i like the concept of the magnet as a metaphor for my mind and i always regularly reinforce the magnetic fields of all my keris. But i don't think it is "science" per se. I would never suggest that anyone else should do this, it is just part of my personal practice and something which works well with the software already input into my mind. But someone else may have an old hatpin from their favorite weird great aunt that has deep magickal significance to them that they might feel is the perfect material to embue and hold spirit. Maybe they want to melt it down and put it in their keris.

[pakana]

Hello to all of you,

I would like to express my opinion in the "keris-spirit" matter. We should't forget the fact that an empu in the past when he got the order of making a keris,had to follow some "rules" in order to make a strong keris. That means fasting, pay attention to certain rituals, praying to God. It wasn't just the strong intention of the maker only. He had to make offerings also to the spirit, as well as "giving" a name to the keris, which he revealed only to the owner, because anyone who had access to that name, could use the power of the keris for himself.

The usage of metal was very important, because of the yin element of it. Together with the usage of meteor material,was literaly the "marriage" of sky(meteor) and the earth(iron). What I mean is that the making of a keris was a very tiring and demanding procedure, far more complicated than making a western sword or a katana. Not to mention also the artistic value of the keris.
I hope that this wonderful thread will continue, providing us beginers with useful information.

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by David

....Personally i like the concept of the magnet as a metaphor for my mind and i always regularly reinforce the magnetic fields of all my keris. But i don't think it is "science" per se. I would never suggest that anyone else should do this, it is just part of my personal practice and something which works well with the software already input into my mind. But someone else may have an old hatpin from their favorite weird great aunt that has deep magickal significance to them that they might feel is the perfect material to embue and hold spirit. Maybe they want to melt it down and put it in their keris.

Salam keris everyone,

I am not very clever and often put both my feet in my mouth but I don't think that magnets (besi berani) have anything to do with keris spirits, unless you trust the wierd elaborations on the keris written by William Sanders available on www.cimande.com.

I have never heard magnets mentioned in Jawanese keris discussions. I have also never heard any Jawanese explain keris in the terms of Yin-Yang. The closest to Yin-Yang in Jawanese keris speak would be 'Ibu Bumi Bapa Angkasa' - mother earth father sky- which do appear in the mantras of mPu according to the late Bp. Bambang Harsrinuksma, but Yin Yang in the Chinese minde encompass more than the Ibu Bumi Bapa Angkasa do for the Jawanese .

In my opinion the spiritual stength of keris comes from:

1) The intention of the mPu and the metals he uses.
2) The mind of the owner.
3) The collective minds of the community where the keris resides, which can be very much influenced by the history of the keris.

And while I am here on my expensive but slow dial-up in the styx, special for Raden Usman in Africa (ngapain lu disane Raden? - what are you doing there Raden in Betawi dialect) .... you must all know the macapat called dandanggula -pot of sweetness? - (I translate gula to sweetness because of the negative feelings the modern world has now for sugar while in Jawa gula is meant to be lovely). Sing this in the night, with feeling. Appologies to forumites who hate poetry. I only have two keris and one tombak with no camera, and also my keris are pusaka I feel reluctant to photograph, please forgive me for never being able to producew photos. The other keris I have for a while always come from our own Mans(ur) Hidayat in Surabaya which I give away as gifts -BTW I think he is an honest and knowledgeable keris seller comparable to our sesepuh Pak Alan Maisey (Mr G'day Mate, nuwun sewu - thousand pardons)...

Macapat Dandanggula

Ana kidung rumeksa ing wengi
Teguh hayu luput hing lelara
Luput hing bilahi kabeh
Jim setan dhatan doyan
Paneluhan tan hana wani
Miwah panggawe ala
Gunane wong luput
Geni atemahan tirta
Maling adoh tan wani perak mring mami!
Guna tuju pan sirna!

Read four, pot of sweetness....

There is a song
Vibrating through the night
Strong and fair protecting from disease
Protecting from all misfortune
Evil spirits hate the taste
Black magic doesn't even dare
And those who would do ill
The arts of the lost ones
Fire killed by cold water
Pirates from far don't you dare cross my path tonight
All your knowledge'll come to nought!

Back to the subject, please tell me where magnets and yin-yang are important in Jawanese kerisology (not Caliofornian kerisology)

Warm salaams,
Bram.

[Pusaka]

Hello David, I know I am a bit of a wonderer but I do like to visit occasionally

Kiai,

I need to explain myself clearer because I think my analogy has confused everyone
The energy that flows through a keris blade is not common magnetism and neither is it produced by magnets in any way. I don’t agree with Mr. Sanders if he says it is, actually I don’t agree much with anything Mr. Sanders says but that’s just me. I used the analogy of a bar magnet simply to say that the material a keris is made from can affect its ability to carry a current/energy just in the same manner the material from which a bar magnet is composed of can produce a strong magnet or a weak magnet. A keris blade is not made with magnets and neither are they traditionally used to energies the keris. I have noticed however that some keris are slightly magnetic, put the blade near a magnetic compass. Today when we use the term magnetism it means one thing however in the passed the Victorians acknowledged different types of magnetism for example animal magnetism (a concept similar to the Indian concept of Prana and the Chineese concept of Qi/Chi.


Regards

D

[pakana]

Greetings everyone,

I noticed that some of the forumites felt a little strange with the usage of the chinese word Yin.My purpose was to make the distinction about the spiritual side of the keris,by using the word Yin, which refers to the spirit world. We, us humans, we are characterised as Yang creatures(because we have flesh and bones), while the spirits that don't have actual existance, are refered as Yin creatures. So, a keris "resident" is a Yin creature.I used chinese terms,because they are more familiar to the western world.Also I don't know javanese

regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Hello David, I know I am a bit of a wonderer but I do like to visit occasionally

I have always considered myself a bit of a wonderer as well, though i assume that what you meant to say is that you are a wanderer. Anyway, glad you wandered by.
Bram, i think i am pretty much on the same page as you and i certainly never meant to imply that magnetism has any traditional place in the understanding of keris spirits. There are many elements of my personal practice which have nothing to do with traditional Indonesian practices. Sorry if i confused you.
Pakana, i am not so sure that i would regard a chunk of iron ore meteorite "yin" simply because it falls from the sky. Place of origin is not always a very good factor in this determination. Man (yang) is, afterall, born of woman (yin). Infact, i would be much more inclined to consider meteorite as "yang". It is extremely dense stuff and hits the earth with great force and velocity. Very yang elements in my book.
I would also be very hesitant to say that the making of a keris is a "far more complicated" procedure than the making of a katana. If this had been posted on the general forum you would probably be hear quite a bit more about that by now.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by David

I have always considered myself a bit of a wonderer as well, though i assume that what you meant to say is that you are a wanderer.

BWHAhaha...yep thats what I meant lol

[pakana]

David,

I didn't said that a meteorite is Yin because of it's origin from the sky.I just said that a keris blade(with it's "resident") is consider to be yin(using again the chinese term) because of it's spirit inside.

[David]

Sorry...that seemed to be the implication i was getting with the concept of the combination of earth iron and meteorite being a marriage of Earth and Sky.
You wrote: The usage of metal was very important, because of the yin element of it. Together with the usage of meteor material,was literaly the "marriage" of sky(meteor) and the earth(iron).
Metal working itself seems pretty yang to me though i do suppose as an inanimate object any metal could be considered yin.

[A. G. Maisey]

In the National Musium in Jakarta is a lingga taken from Candi Sukuh. A big lingga, nearly two meters long, and five feet around.

On this lingga is an image of a keris and alongside it an inscription, which says in part:-

"--- the sign of masculinity is the essence of the world---"

In the Nawanatya (14th century) we find:-

"---the criss, a token of manfulness, has its place at the front---"

In old Jawa the keris was given as an award to a man for displaying bravery in battle.

The keris is a yin object?

Interesting thought.


May I most humbly suggest that it could be useful to refrain from mixing Chinese philosophy with Javanese and European philosophy.

All three schools require extended periods of study in order to gain an adequate understanding of the concepts involved; it is already difficult enough for most of us to try to understand Javanese philosophies, working from a European base. Let us not make things even more difficult by introducing Chinese philosophies.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

May I most humbly suggest that it could be useful to refrain from mixing Chinese philosophy with Javanese and European philosophy.

All three schools require extended periods of study in order to gain an adequate understanding of the concepts involved; it is already difficult enough for most of us to try to understand Javanese philosophies, working from a European base. Let us not make things even more difficult by introducing Chinese philosophies.

I think i must agree. Recouncilling these different schools of can be quite impossible. All one needs to do is look at the differences in the Chinese and European concepts of the 5 elements to see that aspects of these systems are not very compatable.

[PenangsangII]

Dear all,

I think we cannot discount the possibility of Chinese influence with regards to the natural balace of Yin & Yang. We are aware that the Chinese have sailed around the world long before Christopher Columbus discovered America.

[Pusaka]

In my mind a meteorite is yang, I can’t see how it could be considered yin. If you think of the analogy of fertilization then the Earth would represent the ovum/egg whilst the meteorite with its fiery tale would represent the sperm. A meteorite is yang (hot, dry, hard, masculine) whilst the Earth is Yin (watery, earthy, feminine) I think I have heard Indonesians refer to mother Earth and Father sky.

Spirit however might be considered Yin, so we have a Yin spirit in a Yang material, opposites attract?

[PenangsangII]

Dear forumites,

Although the definition of Yin & Yang between the Chinese & Javanese may slightly differ because of other cultural difference in perception, in principle they are the same (what ever the Javanese referred them). Yes Pusaka, I agree with you.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Dear all,

I think we cannot discount the possibility of Chinese influence with regards to the natural balace of Yin & Yang. We are aware that the Chinese have sailed around the world long before Christopher Columbus discovered America.

This is just another illustration on the Chinese influence on Indonesian culture. The first king of Islamic kingdom of Demak, Raden Patah (1478-1518), is the son of the last King Brawijaya (Majapahit) and Princess of Champa -- China. The Chinese name of Raden Patah is Jin Bun.

One of the 13 kings/queens and 2 rulers of Majapahit, is a real Chinese. He was Nyoo Lay Wa (1478-1486), after Majapahit was attacked and conquered by Jin Bun of Demak. The king of Majapahit at that time was Kertabhumi, the father of Jin Bun... That's only a few influence of Chinese to Javanese in the past. (See, "The Fall of Javanese-Hindu Kingdom and the Rise of Islamic States in Nusantara" by Prof Dr Slamet Muljana, 1968)

Ganjawulung

[A. G. Maisey]

There can be no doubt that Chinese culture has influenced the cultures of maritime South East Asia, including much of present day Indonesia and including Jawa. However, there have been other major cultural influences on Javanese culture also, apart from that core part of Javanese culture which is indigenous.

If one is traditional Chinese, and has an excellent understanding of Chinese philosophy, it may be possible for one to transpose the yin-yang of Chinese philosophy onto Javanese culture in an attempt to come to some understanding of Javanese philosophy. However, this would be a Chinese understanding of Javanese philosophy.

If one is of European origin, and has an excellent understanding of one or more of the schools of European philosophy, it may be possible to transpose some of those European concepts onto Javanese culture, in an attempt to understand the philosophies guiding that Javanese culture, but again, this would be a European understanding of Javanese philosophy.

The element of Javanese indigenous philosophy which seems to come closest to the Chinese idea of yin-yang is the well known Javanese principle of dualism, however, this principle does not appear to be an assimilation of Chinese philosophy and its adaptation to the Javanese cultural framework, rather it appears to be an idea woven into the original fabric of Javanese thought. If we transpose concepts foriegn to Javanese culture onto that culture in our attempts to understand elements and ideas that form a part of the culture, then what we are doing is perhaps of assistance to us as individuals to allow us to come to terms with a Javanese idea within a framework that we can understand.

In the present example, if we are Chinese and we liken Javanese dualism to the Chinese concept of yin-yang, then as Chinese we have reconstructed a complex Javanese idea in a form that allows us a limited understanding of that Javanese principle. However, the key word here is "limited". If we are to have an understanding of the Javanese principle, as it is understood in a traditional Javanese context, then we need to make the effort to understand Javanese culture and society, and the philosophic principles which are the weft of the fabric of that culture, and of that society. Only by doing this can we come to a position where we may see and try to understand elements within a culture which are of that culture.

[kai]

Hello pak Ganja,

Please excuse a small correction:

This is just another illustration on the Chinese influence on Indonesian culture. The first king of Islamic kingdom of Demak, Raden Patah (1478-1518), is the son of the last King Brawijaya (Majapahit) and Princess of Champa -- China.

The kingdom(s) of Champa had little to do with China and were never under rule of any ethnic Han AFAIK: as wet rice growers, their territory focused on the narrow plains along the central mountain range of today's Vietnam. They rose to regional power and wealth by their ports being a major stepping stone for the maritime trade and converted to Hindu culture like contemporary kingdoms in continental Southeast Asia (cp. Angkor Wat) as well as throughout the SEA archipelago (e.g. Majapahit). Thus, it's not surprising that they kept close ties with Khmer, Javanese, Sumatran, Malayan royal families...

Regards,
Kai

[Pusaka]

Because a culture recognizes the existence of duality dose not mean it is Chinese yin/yang influence. Every culture on Earth have known and understood the existence of duality since ancient times. The western equivilint of Yin and yang is Sol and Luna (literally Sun and moon). Likewise the five elements have been understood by all ancient civilizations, it dose not mean they also got it from the Chinese.

Chinese five elements: water,wood,fire,metal,earth

Western five elements: earth,fire,water,air,quintessence

The concept of the five elements is also understood by the Indonesians if I remember correctly (Bumi,air,angina,api,besi.

Indian culture also have this knowledge. Thing is when we hear the concept of duality or the five elements mentioned people think it must be Chinese philosophy, completely incorrect.

[A. G. Maisey]

Pusaka, I have the feeling that your most recent post is directed at what I have written.

If I am incorrect in this, then please ignore my further comment, however, if I am correct, are you quite certain that you have understood what I have written?

[David]

It is indeed true that many different cultures have come to understand the universe and their environments with similarly structured systems of thought, but as Alan states, they all have very indigenous understandings through these stuctures and one system cannot be automatically substitited for another. For instance, there is, as Pusaka states, a system of 5 elements that exists both in Western European occult practices and in Chinese philosophies. But even if you examine the 3 elements that are common to these systems, Earth, Fire and Water, i beieve you will find vastly different meanings and correspondences to them. Yes, the 5 elements may have been understood by many different cultures, but these understandings do not necessarily amount to the same "truth".

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Pusaka, I have the feeling that your most recent post is directed at what I have written.

If I am incorrect in this, then please ignore my further comment, however, if I am correct, are you quite certain that you have understood what I have written?

No not meant to be a response to what you wrote but more generally if during the manufacture of a keris the Indonesians consider the marriage of the dual natures of iron from earth and meteorite from sky it should not be considered Chinese influence. I’m just saying that many cultures have the ability to understand such concepts without consulting or borrowing from the Chinese, such things are universal and universally understood by all cultures.

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello pak Ganja,

Please excuse a small correction:


The kingdom(s) of Champa had little to do with China and were never under rule of any ethnic Han AFAIK: as wet rice growers, their territory focused on the narrow plains along the central mountain range of today's Vietnam. They rose to regional power and wealth by their ports being a major stepping stone for the maritime trade and converted to Hindu culture like contemporary kingdoms in continental Southeast Asia (cp. Angkor Wat) as well as throughout the SEA archipelago (e.g. Majapahit). Thus, it's not surprising that they kept close ties with Khmer, Javanese, Sumatran, Malayan royal families...

Regards,
Kai

Interesting point about Putri Cempa. Cheng ho's armada visited Majapahit and Tuban though... there was a lot of Chinese influence during the times when China ruled the waves. Also it appears that to the Jawanese all lighter skined Asian foreigners were thought of as Campa / China. For a long time we thought that the Mongols of Kubilai Khan with their Korean horses (now still in Jawa called Jaran Kore), the Campans, and the several tribes of China were one and the same people. Maybe a little like in rural Jawa to this day every white person is Londo, Dutch.

Salams all,
Bram

[HanaChu69]

Definition of Yin and Yang

Yīn (陰 or 阴 "shady place, north slope, south bank (river); cloudy, overcast"; Japanese: in or on) is the dark element: it is passive, dark, feminine, downward-seeking, and corresponds to the night.

Yáng (陽 or 阳 "sunny place, south slope, north bank (river), sunshine"; Japanese: yō) is the bright element: it is active, light, masculine, upward-seeking and corresponds to the daytime.

Yin is often symbolized by water and earth, while yang is symbolized by fire and wind.

Yin (the receptive, feminine, dark, passive force) and yang (the creative, masculine, bright, active force) are descriptions of complementary opposites rather than absolutes. Any yin/yang dichotomy can be viewed from another perspective. All forces in nature can be seen as having yin and yang states, and the two are in movement rather than held in absolute stasis.


Metal (Classification Elements)

“Metal, or gold, is one of the five elements of Chinese alchemy. The archetypal metals are silver and gold. Metal is associated with the west and autumn, the planet Venus and the colour white. It is believed to govern the lungs. It is associated with organization and stability.

Other qualities associated with metal are unyieldingness, persistence, strength and determination. The metal person is forceful and set in their ways as metal is very strong, but they are self-reliant and enjoy the good things in life. The element metal plays an important role in Chinese astrology and feng shui, the Chinese form of geomancy.”

[HanaChu69]

Greetings,

I would like to highlight some points on the given comments. It’s cool to exchange views…

Pusaka – The analogy did not confuse me at all. If I place myself looking at the views from your angle, I’m able to relate per se.

Bram & Pak Alan – I have the same opinion with both of you. It could be that our mind set (school of thoughts) and “olah rasa” inner/spiritual feeling tells us differently. That’s the reason why our view on Ying and Yang totally doesn’t relate with the Javanese keris culture.

Penangsang – You are right, in principle; they are almost similar but different context. In Chinese philosophy, metal element is applicable to human being generically used in Geomancy; Chinese Astrology and Feng Shui. In Javanese keris philosophy, it is specifically termed to the spirit of the keris such as “Kiai Setan Kober” etc.

This is my perception. Do feel free to comment.

Sincerely,
Hana