Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 6th September 2017, 09:25 PM   #151
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,253
Default

Eric:

I think what you have succeeded in doing here with your last several posts is add support for Ariel's original comments, that the word "karud" has been widely adopted by the buying and selling community, and by a number of so-called authorities (in Western literature) who have largely perpetuated the early Western "error" of inventing a new word for what was originally "kard."

By the way, in the interests of full disclosure, we should note that the source you quoted, "Dolche und Messer aus dem Persischen Kulturraum 1984 (Daggers and knives made ​​of the Persian cultural region in 1984)" is published by Hermanns Historica and based on their auction sales. This is not a highly academic source, makes quite a few errors in their catalogs, and largely reflects the customs and habits of the collecting community.

Lastly, I think the dagger you show as from Kerala may actually be from NW India (Rajastan) where there are many knives similar to those reported from Kerala. I would indeed call it a pesh kabz. In my experience the Kerala knives tend to have wider blades, although similar in overall appearance.
Ian is offline  
Old 6th September 2017, 09:34 PM   #152
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
P.Holstein, "Contribution A L’Etude des Armes Orientales", 1931. Vol. II, plate XX, the author shows both pesh kabz and karud daggers.
Well Eric
Holstein speaks only of pesh kabz...
The text under the picture is not from Holstein...
Nevertheless I share your general opinion.
Best,
Kubur
Kubur is offline  
Old 6th September 2017, 11:23 PM   #153
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

Eric,

Forgive me for saying it, but time after time you appear to believe that nobody here ( and me in particular) had ever seen books by Egerton, Stone and Baden-Powell. Well, allow me to disabuse you of that notion: we had. Bringing Stone as a final authority is not a great idea if you want to convince anybody here. Even Stone himself ( whom I admire deeply) openly admitted that his book needed to be updated with " more accurate information". Nothing is " carved in Stone":-)


Second, as Kubur has already mentioned, Holstein's book was written in French. Your illustration is Plate XX from Volume 2. The legend, however, is in English, translated by somebody who had his own ( or, likely, Stone's) ideas about the examples, and is completely fabricated: Holstein never had a legend to this plate or labeled any of the objects as "Karud". All of them were described in the text as Peshkabz. Where did you get this mistranslated source from? Are you trying to use this " false fact" as an argument in favor of your position?

And lastly, you seem to concentrate on my personal recommendation to use a correct term for a straight-bladed Peshkabz. You may not like it, and this is your right. Just as it is my right, as an author of the original post, to have my own opinion. " And the twain shall never meet".

Moreover, you have already agreed that the use of correct term is appropriate in academic publications, i.e. exactly what I have been saying from the beginning and what was clearly stated in the text of my original post. So, what are you arguing with?

Last edited by ariel; 6th September 2017 at 11:41 PM.
ariel is offline  
Old 7th September 2017, 04:15 AM   #154
estcrh
Member
 
estcrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Eric,

Forgive me for saying it, but time after time you appear to believe that nobody here ( and me in particular) had ever seen books by Egerton, Stone and Baden-Powell. Well, allow me to disabuse you of that notion: we had. Bringing Stone as a final authority is not a great idea if you want to convince anybody here. Even Stone himself ( whom I admire deeply) openly admitted that his book needed to be updated with " more accurate information". Nothing is " carved in Stone":-)
Ariel, please stop trying to speak for everyone here, I am not trying to convince anyone here of anything, I am showing examples from a variety of sources where the different terms came from, who said what and when. If you have seen it all then just dont look, other people now and in the future may not have seen them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Second, as Kubur has already mentioned, Holstein's book was written in French. Your illustration is Plate XX from Volume 2. The legend, however, is in English, translated by somebody who had his own ( or, likely, Stone's) ideas about the examples, and is completely fabricated: Holstein never had a legend to this plate or labeled any of the objects as "Karud". All of them were described in the text as Peshkabz. Where did you get this mistranslated source from? Are you trying to use this " false fact" as an argument in favor of your position?
Ariel, that is my PERSONAL interpretation, no more fabricated than any other, including your suggestions that we fabricate a completely new history by pretending that the work "karud" does not exist. In my opinion it is you that is recommending the use of false facts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
And lastly, you seem to concentrate on my personal recommendation to use a correct term for a straight-bladed Peshkabz. You may not like it, and this is your right. Just as it is my right, as an author of the original post, to have my own opinion. " And the twain shall never meet".
In fact Ariel, we already have an accepted term for the "straight bladed pesh-kabz"....it is "karud". It is my right to disagree with you, and what exactly is your new correct term???


Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Moreover, you have already agreed that the use of correct term is appropriate in academic publications, i.e. exactly what I have been saying from the beginning and what was clearly stated in the text of my original post. So, what are you arguing with?
Ariel what I have agreed with is that the known history of these terms absolutely should be brought up in academic publications and but that they should still be used.....you have and still do insist that the word "karud" should be stricken from academic publications.....two completely different and opposed thoughts.
estcrh is offline  
Old 7th September 2017, 04:37 AM   #155
estcrh
Member
 
estcrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
Eric:

I think what you have succeeded in doing here with your last several posts is add support for Ariel's original comments, that the word "karud" has been widely adopted by the buying and selling community, and by a number of so-called authorities (in Western literature) who have largely perpetuated the early Western "error" of inventing a new word for what was originally "kard."

By the way, in the interests of full disclosure, we should note that the source you quoted, "Dolche und Messer aus dem Persischen Kulturraum 1984 (Daggers and knives made ​​of the Persian cultural region in 1984)" is published by Hermanns Historica and based on their auction sales. This is not a highly academic source, makes quite a few errors in their catalogs, and largely reflects the customs and habits of the collecting community.
Ian, I have not disagreed with Ariels thoughts on the subject except for his suggestion that the word "karud" no longer be used.....as we can all see there has been over time a progression as far as terms go. First there were general terms, then over time people struggled to categorize the many different forms into more identifiable categories based of certain features, either by blade, or hilt, overall shape etc.

For example, some sources mention the pesh kabz as only being straight bladed, with no mention of a curved blade, others take a completely different route and they lump the curved bladed and straight bladed together, while some people call the curved bladed type a pesh kabz and the straight bladed ones as karud.

There are no real rules, its good to have as much of the existing data available in one place and for people to make up their own minds based on how they see things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
Lastly, I think the dagger you show as from Kerala may actually be from NW India (Rajastan) where there are many knives similar to those reported from Kerala. I would indeed call it a pesh kabz. In my experience the Kerala knives tend to have wider blades, although similar in overall appearance.
Now this would be an interesting new discussion.
estcrh is offline  
Old 7th September 2017, 07:00 AM   #156
estcrh
Member
 
estcrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
Default

The Met Museum avoids using dagger names except for the katar in their book "Islamic Arms and Armor in The Metropolitan Museum of Art", David G. Alexander,
Metropolitan Museum of Art, 2015, I guess that is one way to solve the name situation. Jambiya, kard and khanjar are all described was "dagger". Just remove all "foreign terms"....humm....like that is so much better than including all of those pesky "foreign terms" with understandable explanations. The term "katar" is used once along with other possible names but the image has "punch dagger" as the description.

Quote:
In keeping with the intention that this publication should be intelligible to the general reader as well as the specialist, foreign terms have been kept to a minimum.
Attached Images
    

Last edited by estcrh; 7th September 2017 at 01:50 PM.
estcrh is offline  
Old 7th September 2017, 01:43 PM   #157
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

OK Eric , you won.

"Don't worry, be happy" :-)
ariel is offline  
Old 7th September 2017, 02:43 PM   #158
Mercenary
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 421
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
The Met Museum avoids using dagger names except for the katar in their book "Islamic Arms and Armor in The Metropolitan Museum of Art", David G. Alexander,
Metropolitan Museum of Art, 2015, I guess that is one way to solve the name situation. Jambiya, kard and khanjar are all described was "dagger". Just remove all "foreign terms"....humm....like that is so much better than including all of those pesky "foreign terms" with understandable explanations. The term "katar" is used once along with other possible names but the image has "punch dagger" as the description.
Very respectful. It is very right to write "sword" or "dagger", rather than experiment with unclear words. Special terms should be in special articles, but not in colorful albums.
Mercenary is offline  
Old 7th September 2017, 03:35 PM   #159
estcrh
Member
 
estcrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercenary
Very respectful. It is very right to write "sword" or "dagger", rather than experiment with unclear words. Special terms should be in special articles, but not in colorful albums.
The book goes into very detailed descriptions on many different things, but somehow a simple jambiya is a "dagger", in fact in the Museums website, the exact same jambiya is called a jambiya but somehow for a book called "Islamic Arms and Armor in The Metropolitan Museum of Art" jambiya is too foreign????
Attached Images
 
estcrh is offline  
Old 7th September 2017, 04:53 PM   #160
Mercenary
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 421
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
The book goes into very detailed descriptions on many different things, but somehow a simple jambiya is a "dagger", in fact in the Museums website, the exact same jambiya is called a jambiya but somehow for a book called "Islamic Arms and Armor in The Metropolitan Museum of Art" jambiya is too foreign????
What is written in the descriptions of museums it is only for curious visitors.
At the forum there is slang, in conversations of collectors and dealers, in the descriptions of museums and richly illustrated books there is slang too.
Nobody forbids us to know that water it is H2O, but we ask "water" when we thirsty. Do not read the descriptions in the museums and albums at all except for items outside your circle of interests ))
Mercenary is offline  
Old 7th September 2017, 06:47 PM   #161
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,190
Default

this thread: time for the funeral i think....
Attached Images
 
kronckew is offline  
Old 7th September 2017, 06:58 PM   #162
estcrh
Member
 
estcrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
this thread: time for the funeral i think....
No need for that, I did not see anyone complaining when it went off the track about food, wine...garlic etc. For those that are not interested there are other topics.
estcrh is offline  
Old 7th September 2017, 07:00 PM   #163
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,162
Default


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1PYp-fsZOA
David is offline  
Old 7th September 2017, 07:01 PM   #164
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,190
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
No need for that, I did not see anyone complaining when it went off the track about food, wine...garlic etc. For those that are not interested there are other topics.
the digressions tend to support my position, but...

ah, well, carry on if you enjoy it. i'm off, time to walk the dog...bye.
kronckew is offline  
Old 7th September 2017, 07:17 PM   #165
fernando
(deceased)
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
... I did not see anyone complaining when it went off the track about food, wine...garlic etc...
You are right Eric, no one complained; but it appears that now they do .
fernando is offline  
Old 7th September 2017, 09:30 PM   #166
Robert
EAAF Staff
 
Robert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Centerville, Kansas
Posts: 2,196
Default

As this topic has grown stagnate and to keep it from once more going off track, I believe that it is now time to bring this discussion to a close. Possibly at a later date if there is renewed interest, I will be open to unlocking it on a trial basis.

Robert
Robert is offline  
Closed Thread


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.