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#151 |
Vikingsword Staff
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Eric:
I think what you have succeeded in doing here with your last several posts is add support for Ariel's original comments, that the word "karud" has been widely adopted by the buying and selling community, and by a number of so-called authorities (in Western literature) who have largely perpetuated the early Western "error" of inventing a new word for what was originally "kard." By the way, in the interests of full disclosure, we should note that the source you quoted, "Dolche und Messer aus dem Persischen Kulturraum 1984 (Daggers and knives made of the Persian cultural region in 1984)" is published by Hermanns Historica and based on their auction sales. This is not a highly academic source, makes quite a few errors in their catalogs, and largely reflects the customs and habits of the collecting community. Lastly, I think the dagger you show as from Kerala may actually be from NW India (Rajastan) where there are many knives similar to those reported from Kerala. I would indeed call it a pesh kabz. In my experience the Kerala knives tend to have wider blades, although similar in overall appearance. |
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#152 | |
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Holstein speaks only of pesh kabz... The text under the picture is not from Holstein... Nevertheless I share your general opinion. Best, Kubur |
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#153 |
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Eric,
Forgive me for saying it, but time after time you appear to believe that nobody here ( and me in particular) had ever seen books by Egerton, Stone and Baden-Powell. Well, allow me to disabuse you of that notion: we had. Bringing Stone as a final authority is not a great idea if you want to convince anybody here. Even Stone himself ( whom I admire deeply) openly admitted that his book needed to be updated with " more accurate information". Nothing is " carved in Stone":-) Second, as Kubur has already mentioned, Holstein's book was written in French. Your illustration is Plate XX from Volume 2. The legend, however, is in English, translated by somebody who had his own ( or, likely, Stone's) ideas about the examples, and is completely fabricated: Holstein never had a legend to this plate or labeled any of the objects as "Karud". All of them were described in the text as Peshkabz. Where did you get this mistranslated source from? Are you trying to use this " false fact" as an argument in favor of your position? And lastly, you seem to concentrate on my personal recommendation to use a correct term for a straight-bladed Peshkabz. You may not like it, and this is your right. Just as it is my right, as an author of the original post, to have my own opinion. " And the twain shall never meet". Moreover, you have already agreed that the use of correct term is appropriate in academic publications, i.e. exactly what I have been saying from the beginning and what was clearly stated in the text of my original post. So, what are you arguing with? Last edited by ariel; 6th September 2017 at 10:41 PM. |
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#154 | ||||
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#155 | ||
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For example, some sources mention the pesh kabz as only being straight bladed, with no mention of a curved blade, others take a completely different route and they lump the curved bladed and straight bladed together, while some people call the curved bladed type a pesh kabz and the straight bladed ones as karud. There are no real rules, its good to have as much of the existing data available in one place and for people to make up their own minds based on how they see things. Quote:
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#156 | |
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The Met Museum avoids using dagger names except for the katar in their book "Islamic Arms and Armor in The Metropolitan Museum of Art", David G. Alexander,
Metropolitan Museum of Art, 2015, I guess that is one way to solve the name situation. Jambiya, kard and khanjar are all described was "dagger". Just remove all "foreign terms"....humm....like that is so much better than including all of those pesky "foreign terms" with understandable explanations. The term "katar" is used once along with other possible names but the image has "punch dagger" as the description. Quote:
Last edited by estcrh; 7th September 2017 at 12:50 PM. |
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#157 |
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OK Eric , you won.
"Don't worry, be happy" :-) |
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#158 | |
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#159 | |
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#160 | |
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At the forum there is slang, in conversations of collectors and dealers, in the descriptions of museums and richly illustrated books there is slang too. Nobody forbids us to know that water it is H2O, but we ask "water" when we thirsty. Do not read the descriptions in the museums and albums at all except for items outside your circle of interests )) |
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#161 |
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this thread: time for the funeral i think....
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#162 | |
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#163 |
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#164 | |
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ah, well, carry on if you enjoy it. i'm off, time to walk the dog...bye. |
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#165 | |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
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#166 |
EAAF Staff
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As this topic has grown stagnate and to keep it from once more going off track, I believe that it is now time to bring this discussion to a close. Possibly at a later date if there is renewed interest, I will be open to unlocking it on a trial basis.
Robert |
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