keris and spirit

[PenangsangII]

Dear Pak Raden,

Awesome discussion, but I have a question....

If a Tosan Aji is commissioned by a customer, and forged accordingly by the empu with the intention of the owner's prosperity, is used to kill someone for whatever reason, does it affect the tuah of the keris? Will it render the keris useless? If so, how do we regain the tuah? Thanks in advance.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

I do hope all of us may come down to the level of practice (lower than philosophy)... some areas like "how to use a car" instead of "the usage of car". In other thread, a part of ancient book uploaded by Gonjo, there is interesting statement, "If mr so and so holds/uses keris made by empu such and such with "his purity of heart and mind", the remarkable power will emerge from him & his keris. Some questions rise after reading that thread such as... whether there is a standard of procedure to use/operate (technically) of keris?

Yes Raden, to manage of "how to use a car" properly, of course it is not worse if people also manage to know "the usage of car", to know the detail of your car, the machine, the weakness of the type of your car's machine...

Ganjawulung

[David]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

If a Tosan Aji is commissioned by a customer, and forged accordingly by the empu with the intention of the owner's prosperity, is used to kill someone for whatever reason, does it affect the tuah of the keris?

I don't think anyone can properly answer this question other than to say that it if far too vague to be answerable. You can't really say "for whatever reason" because that reason may well factor in to the answer to the question. Perhaps the keris was used in the protection of the owner's prosperity...who knows. What is permissable may well be between the empu and the owner...and God.

[PenangsangII]

Sorry David, my question was very vague. Let me rephrase it more properly by giving an example.

A merchant commissioned a keris with the intention to enhance his status & prosperity. One day, a thief broke into his house, and the merchant had to defend his belongings by fighting off the intruder using his "prosperity keris". In the ensuing fight, the thief was stabbed & killed.

Now that the keris had tasted blood which is far from the intended purpose of prosperity talisman, would the keris still have that particular talismanic value?

I am asking you this because, a man in a village of my hometown, had to use his keris when a monitor lizzard intruded into his chicken coop & stealing / killing / eating his chickens. Out of anger, and without any other weapons at that time, he used his keris to stab dead the lizzard. Consequently, a week later he fell ill and became insane. As the modern medicine had no answer to his illness, the family members took him to see a bomoh / dukun / shaman. It was diagnosed by the traditional healer that the genie khadam within the keris had caused the illness, as the keris was meant to be used as personal protection against any unseen forces. So by stabbing the monitor lizzard, the man had somewhat insulted his own keris and of course the being inside

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Gonjo, yes, you are right. Ideally, it must be like what you said.

Penangsang, I dont have any exact answer for your case. It is very unique and specific. However, I have ever heard about "sukerto" and "ruwat". These two words are very familiar amongst pupet perfomance lovers. So, lets hope that someone like Kiai Carita, Alan or Gonjo is eager to give comments.

warm salam,

Usman

[HanaChu69]

Greetings everyone,

I’m procrastinating on my replies but after much prompting I’ve decided to give my half cents worth of opinion. Do apologize if they don’t appeal to some for the way I perceive things may be peculiar and different from others.

Bram – The “olah rasa” and “gerak nurani” seems familiar but could you elaborate. If you’re hesitant please do email me at hana_chu69@yahoo.com.sg to double confirm on my understanding.

Pak Alan – Hmm..I’m trying to simplify and you’re trying to confuse ..Anyway, those who are able to contextualize, relate and connect to your level of thinking (same frequency) will definitely benefit. I like the saying on “offered as it is with a loving heart"”. My interpretation of likeable=loving heart=sincerity. I find “mental attitude” interesting and it may take you a lifetime to get it right.

Penangsang – I sympathizes with the man who become insane. It’s wise to source the origin of the keris and if it’s a Malay or Indonesian keris. For a Malay keris, the empu will usually recite (zikir) verses from the Holy Quran and khadam a Muslim. Of course, he will be angry if you go against his beliefs and principles. It is wise to get a person who is able to communicate with keris as in “negotiate” or maybe there are other factors involved. Pray and hope that he will recover soon.

Usman – I maybe half Javanese but I still need to read up on Javanese culture, customs and rituals. Is it possible for you to elaborate definition on “sukerto" and "ruwat"? Can we apply them to keris and other pusaka items as well?

Sincerely,
Hana

[A. G. Maisey]

Hana, I'm sorry if what I have written is causing any confusion. I did spend a little time trying to make this idea as simple as I possibly could, so that there would be no confusion.The proposition is really simplicity itself. Broken down to the elemental all it means is that God is in all things, and an offering to any sekti thing that you honour is an offering to God. Because God is above pettiness, the physical nature of the offering is unimportant, the attitude of the person making the offering is all important. Offer only a prayer with sincerity in your heart , and that is sufficient. The function of ritual is not to honour God, but to bring discipline to the mind of man, so his mind is in the correct state to honour his God.

[Montino Bourbon]

You put it really well, Mr Maisey.

[HanaChu69]

Pak Alan, appreciate that you are trying your best to place the correct words and use the most simplified for all to relate. I really don’t mean to be harsh or being disrespectful and now I'm feeling bad..

Thank you so much for the above clarifications. Well said, everyone can now have a better understanding as in tuning to the same frequency…

[A. G. Maisey]

Hana, I'm sure it would be impossible for you to be harsh, or disrespectful in even the slightest degree.

As for feeling bad---nothing wrong with feeling bad---as long as you enjoy it.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by HanaChu69

Greetings everyone,

Usman – I maybe half Javanese but I still need to read up on Javanese culture, customs and rituals. Is it possible for you to elaborate definition on “sukerto" and "ruwat"? Can we apply them to keris and other pusaka items as well?

Sincerely,
Hana

Hana,

I may not have sufficient information about this matter. So I am afraid if I try to explain it to you, it can confuse. However, since none of us speak about "Sukerto" and "Ruwat" but you and me, I will try to tell what I know about.

Actually, I could email personally you. But rather than PM, allow me to respond it through this thread. Why, by informing openly, I hope whenever my explanation is not correct, any kerislover can interupt it and give better explanation. It is important. Why? Because too many cases I found in the keris world, the first information they get, it is believed as the truth. Whenever they recieve better/true information latter, they tend move uneasily from the first stand. So, hopefully, don't hold my statement which will be the first information you receive about "sukerto" and "ruwat" as the truth.

I will focus directly on "sukerto" and "ruwat" for goods (not for human). Sukerto, perhaps, is defect product because of wrong-using. For instance, the locomotive which hit somebody till causing his death. Then, that locomotive is considered as "sukerto good". For a simple good, if it is considered as a sukerto good, then the owner can simply throw it away (to the sea... the term of throwing away is "larung). But how...if a sukerto good is a locomotif which need abundant investment. Too valuable. To neutralize the bad influence of a "sukerto" good is by "ruwat" procession. After "ruwat"ed, it is hoped that the locomotive will be "normal" again without any "bad" influence to its users.

As Alan said, the most important of "ruwat" procession is to dicipline our mind that everything comes from the Singularity and will come back to the Singularity, including "bad" influence. "Bad" depends on our point of view and interest.

Perhaps, this explanation is also as a respond of Penangsang's question. But rather than as an answer, consider it as exchange views to open further discussion.

Actually, I still hope Kiai Carita's enlightment since we know he is a dalang with pangkur gedong kuning song.

warm regards,
Usman

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

Hana,

Actually, I still hope Kiai Carita's enlightment since we know he is a dalang with pangkur gedong kuning song.

warm regards,
Usman

Could you translate please ?

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by HanaChu69

Usman – I maybe half Javanese but I still need to read up on Javanese culture, customs and rituals. Is it possible for you to elaborate definition on “sukerto" and "ruwat"? Can we apply them to keris and other pusaka items as well?

I would help a little bit to Mr Usman, if you don't mind. I don't think you can apply "sukerta" and "ruwat" to kerises or other pusaka items. Actually the two Javanese terms are very difficult to explain in other language.

Any human with "sukerta" position, must be "diruwat" (to be 'ruwatted', sorry for this Javanese English). You are "manusia" (human) sukerta, it means that you are born with an anomality position -- such as you are the only son or the only daughter, you were born 'in the middle of the different sexes', male-female-male, or female-male-female -- and also you are 'sukerta' if you've done such 'taboo' things according to Javanese community such as: throwing garbage from the window, or not intentionally let a "dandang" fall. Dandang is a very special form of rice-pan in Java. And many more "sukerta" kriteria...

So, if you are "manusia sukerta" in traditional Java community, then you need to be 'ruwatted'... And the ritual ceremony of "ruwatan" must be conducted by a "true dhalang" or "true wayang puppeteer" that called as "Dhalang Kandha Buwana" (I don't have the English translation -- not literally -- for this term of dhalang).

So, the "manusia sukerta" must be "ruwatted" by the true dhalang, in order to free him or her from the target of Bethara Kala or gods of Kala (time and death). In the past time, according to the past trace of Candi Sukuh inscription near Mount Lawu in Surakarta, the "manusia sukerta" must be poured too, with special water called "pawitra" or water from a holy bathing-place...

Ganjawulung

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Rick,

forgive me not translating "a dalang with pangkur gedhong kuning song". let me try to translate it " a puppeteer (puppet player) who sing a song yellow manson pangkur". Sorry, still I cannot translate "pangkur" into english. In jawa, songs are divided into several classification. Pangkur is a class of Jawanese song(s). Am I right, friends?


Gonjo,

thank you for explaining "ruwat" and "sukerto" that in your explanation it cannot applied for keris or "goods". yes, I got the same information as you said from my Jawanese teachers when I was in high schools (they were remarkable teachers). Ritual of ruwat and term of sukerto are for human. So, ruwatan applied for goods which people praticing it in my village is not the standard ruwat (pakem). Perhaps, it is a part of human innovation/modification. Hope Hanachu will follow the standard understanding of ruwat and sukerto as you mentioned.


Penangsang,

According to your inquiry how if a certain is used to kill, it is hard to answer. Perhaps, the simple way is to "larung" (throw away) that keris to the ocean or a junction of rivers. However, how is that keris too important for its master? The most prominent heirloom of Djokjakarta sultanate, Kiai Plered, was used to kill Aria Penangsang by Senopati, to hurt Ronggo Keniten by Senopati too, to kill Pragolopati the Second by the Great Sultan's warrior (grandson of Senopati), to kill Suronoto by Prince Hangabehi. However, till nowadays, Kiai Plered is still has important place in Djokjakarta Sultanate. Perhaps, in term of heirlooms of Djokjakarta Sultanate, Kiai Plered is the most important.What is your opinion about this Kiai Plered story?

warm salam
Usman

[sepokal]

Assalamualaikum and Salam Bahagia to forumers,

Just thought that I'll give some thoughts about this issue. I guess it is only right for me to reply (beradab) to a my friend Penangsang when he did mention my name regarding this.

First and foremost, I would like to explain that my explaination is solely based on malay perspective regarding keris. There are differences between Malay and Javanese point of views regarding keris so hence, my apologies for any wrong, coming from my views regarding this issue.

Penangsang and fellow forumers, the Malays believe, first and foremost, a keris is a weapon. It's function, is more for killing, and never are they more interested in knowing the mystical aspect of the keris first, That comes later. They are more concern, on the practicality side of the weapon in which, how it feels like when they dance the silat dance with the keris and also, when called upon to use it, how the keris behaves in one's grip. That, in itself, does not mean that they deny the mystical side of the keris, but rather, consider the mystical side of it, as secondary to it's function as a weapon. A Malay keris that has killed many a men (or women) in trying to defend it's owner's life and that of family honour, should be considered as a weapon that has done great service to it's owner. Hence, it should never be thrown, rather, it should be kept well and appreciate for it's loyalty towards it's owner. My pusaka have killed many during the Dutch occupation. It was kept by my grandmother and none of her sons and daugthers knew of this (including my father). I kept receiving dreams of this weapons being used by my great great great grandfather who fought to defend the family honour and in those dreams, I dreamt and saw many people being killed by this pusaka of mine. One day, my grandmother (for reasons I don't know why), was very restless and requested my uncle to bring her to Kuala Lumpur, from Singapore. She is very old, but due to her request, she was brought to my house. When she came to my house, I enquired from her, whether she has any pusaka from my greatgrandfather (this pusaka has been in my family since 1700 ++) She immediately says, yes, she do have one. My uncles and aunties were shocked at this revelation. They asked her, why did she says no when they enquired about the pusaka, years ago. She told them that the pusaka is not meant for them, but for me. She told them, the pusaka can never be pulled out from the sarung except for the one that was given the right to pulled it out. I asked her for the pusaka and told her that I was asked to keep it. She readily accept my request, Alhamdulillah. Upon receiving it, several weeks later, I did not pull it out of the sheath yet because my inner instinct told me not to. My dad tried to pull it out of the sheath, followed by my uncles and aunties, but none of them was able to pull it out. The next morning, after my sholat suboh, my instinct told me to pull it out. I pulled it out in one pull. I smell the blade, my god, it smelt bad. I think, I did smell blood and you can see traces of dark spots that might suggest blood. It was a nice blade and it needs some TLC (Tender, luv and care) and that is exactly what I did. It took lots of time and concentration from me to clean it. Alhamdulillah, it was all worth it. I did try to hold it and my God, it felt soo good and appropriately balance in my hand. When I remember back those times when I had those dreams, then I realise how it was used to protect my great great great great grandfather from being killed by the dutch. How can one throw that away when it was, at one time, provide it services for the safety of my family.

Many people believe that once a keris or badek etc, have killed before, then those weapons are bad luck. It is sad that those thoughts are well implanted in most malays nowadays, when at one time, it was never an issue because, keris has always been, first and foremost, a weapon, and never do the malay worries regarding it's luck, when it has tasted blood and "ate" meat.

Regards,
Sepokal toh putih

p.s
penangsang, setakat itu sahajalah pendapat saya yang tak seberapa ini.

[PenangsangII]

Thank you very much Sepokal for giving the answer from a Malay's perspective. Sometimes, I feel I am at the disadvantage for having mixed parentage .

I agree with you that keris is first & foremost a weapon, but I am not sure that after tasting blood, shouldnt the keris be purified (dipulihkan) or maybe in Javanese term - ruwat?

About the insane guy, I am sorry to tell you (Sepokal, Hana, AlamShah, David and all), the incident took place in early 90's, and the man had since died without regaining his sanity. A sad story indeed, as something could have been done to save, at least his life.

Mr Sepokal or others, where can I buy an original kemuning kerdas hilt (Sulawesi style) and the matching pendokok to go with my sepokal blade (Sepokal, you know that blade)?

[PenangsangII]

Dear Pak Raden,

I thought Arya Penangsang was killed by his own keris, Ki Setan Kober? I wouldnt repeat his mistake if I were in his position again.

And about that hierloom tombak, Ki Plered, may I ask whether it had to go thru purification process after each kill?

Salam
penangsang

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

Rick,
Gonjo,

thank you for explaining "ruwat" and "sukerto" that in your explanation it cannot applied for keris or "goods". yes, I got the same information as you said from my Jawanese teachers when I was in high schools (they were remarkable teachers). Ritual of ruwat and term of sukerto are for human. So, ruwatan applied for goods which people praticing it in my village is not the standard ruwat (pakem). Perhaps, it is a part of human innovation/modification. Hope Hanachu will follow the standard understanding of ruwat and sukerto as you mentioned.


Penangsang,

According to your inquiry how if a certain is used to kill, it is hard to answer. Perhaps, the simple way is to "larung" (throw away) that keris to the ocean or a junction of rivers. However, how is that keris too important for its master? The most prominent heirloom of Djokjakarta sultanate, Kiai Plered, was used to kill Aria Penangsang by Senopati, to hurt Ronggo Keniten by Senopati too, to kill Pragolopati the Second by the Great Sultan's warrior (grandson of Senopati), to kill Suronoto by Prince Hangabehi. However, till nowadays, Kiai Plered is still has important place in Djokjakarta Sultanate. Perhaps, in term of heirlooms of Djokjakarta Sultanate, Kiai Plered is the most important.What is your opinion about this Kiai Plered story?

warm salam
Usman

Dear all, in Jawa, ruwatan and sukerta apply to people. Check http://www.joglosemar.co.id/ruwatan.html there is a detailed naration of ruwatan there. You must be a senior dalang, with grandchildren, before you can become a dalang ruwat. Currently the term ruwatan has also often been used in terms of the Nation.

A keris (or tombak) that has been used to kill is not considered bad unless it was used to kill some one you would rather have not been killed. Is Kiai Plered a good pusaka? Yes, for Yogya, but not for its victims.

One should not use a keris to kill a lizard though especially if it is only a biawak stealing chickens. If a person is unhappy with a keris (s)he should either sell it or give it away but never larung it into the sea. To larung a keris is a Jawa tradition but nowadays it should be considered as destroying archeological artefacts and littering.

If you look at the pusaka of the Yogya kraton, you will find that many pusaka are not really of extraordinary quality. Kiai Plered is a common soldier's spear, designed as a weapon and became a pusaka later, after succesfully serving Senopati in his fights to power. There is even a very wierd Kiai Vandeel which is not a tosan aji but rather a small banner presented by the Dutch to a Sultan in the past. All the old European carriages in the Kraton are also venerated as Kiai thisandthat. These become pusaka by the virtue of being used and owned by kings.


Warm salaams,
Bram

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Dear Pak Raden,

I thought Arya Penangsang was killed by his own keris, Ki Setan Kober? I wouldnt repeat his mistake if I were in his position again.

And about that hierloom tombak, Ki Plered, may I ask whether it had to go thru purification process after each kill?

Salam
penangsang

Penangsang,

Oo..you are right. Arya Penangsang was killed by his own keris, Kiai Setan Kober.

I dont have any story about purification of tombak Kiai Plered. Does anyone have? As I have, only King of Djokja
himself takes care of it. It shows the important role of Kiai Plered in DjoKja (perhaps, both in term of mataram history and in term of its spirit)

Back to the spirit inside, do you think there is different pattern of spirit between keris and spear point (tombak)?

Usman

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by Kiai Carita

.....To larung a keris is a Jawa tradition but nowadays it should be considered as destroying archeological artefacts and littering....

Kiai Carita,

It is interesting. In one side, if we sell a keris that we believe it has bad influence to the owner, we will feel guilty to its buyer. Generally, between seller and buyer of keris know well each other. On the other hand, if we follow tradition to larung (throw away) it, as you said, it should be considered as destroying arecheological artefacts and littering.

What do you suggest, Kiai?

Warm salam,

Usman

[A. G. Maisey]

In reference to "ruwat & sukerta", those who would like to obtain a better understanding of this will find a good reference in "Javanese Traditional and Ritual Ceremonies", Suryo S. Negoro, CV Buana Raya, Surakarta, 2001.This book is in English.

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

Kiai Carita,

It is interesting. In one side, if we sell a keris that we believe it has bad influence to the owner, we will feel guilty to its buyer. Generally, between seller and buyer of keris know well each other. On the other hand, if we follow tradition to larung (throw away) it, as you said, it should be considered as destroying arecheological artefacts and littering.

What do you suggest, Kiai?

Warm salam,

Usman

Mas Usman, sorry for not yet responding to your PM, but yes, I have some other translations of macapat (read four) songs. However these are still changing, it is not easy to get the English to be able to feel close to the Jawanese.

As to selling a keris that you feel is bad without feeling bad, this can be achieved by letting the buyer know. If you can't find a buyer, you should always be able to find someone who would be happy to take it, especially in Jawa there are many people who pride themselves in being able to neutralize bad spiritual forces. In the west, a small museum might be interested. Larung in the sea is a very bad option, makes me think of Anton Lucas' "The Dog is Dead, Throw it in the River" piece about how we (Indonesians) treat our rivers. What if some child is playing on the beach and falls on the larunged keris?

The ketoprak story I remember goes: Arya Penangsang was killed by his keris, because Gagak Rimang, his stallion was in heat. Gagak Rimang reared unexpectedly giving Sutawijaya an oportunity to badly gash Penangsang's stomach till his intestines fell out. Penangsang hanged them back round his keris and continued fighting till he had Sutawijaya pinned, and forgeting that his intestines were hanging around his keris, drew his keris to stab Sutawijaya but instead severed his own intestines and died. Setan Kober killed him, but so did Sutawijaya's tombak. Was not this tombak Kiai Plered? Later I believe that Kiai Plered was used successfully again in battle, to kill a Dutch commander, making it seem that Pusaka tosan aji were also still used in battle after they had been passed down through the generations.

Nowadays, Penangsang is a hero in Blora and northen parts of Jawa, but he is a antagonist in Mataram II centres.

Mas Usman, special for you while I am here, I am sure you know this macapat song about young Jaka Tingkir, one generation back from the death of Arya Penangsang.

Sigra milir
Sang gethek sinangga bajul
Kawandasa kang njagani
Ing ngarso miwah ing pungkur
Tanepi ing kanan kering
Sang gethek lampahnya alon.

Floating so slow
My raft is pushed by crocodiles
Forty beasts surrounding me
In the front and in the rear
On my right and on my left
My raft is floating oh so slow.

warm salaams,
Bram

[PenangsangII]

Salam,

Kiai Carita, I believe that song is a narration of Jaka Tingkir's journey to Demak along with his 2 companions / lieutenants to win back Sultan Trenggono's trust after he was banished from the palace for seducing the sultan's princess.

Eventually, Mas Karebet managed to kill a bull that had run amuk near sultan's platform. The sultan finally agreed to marry off his daughter to Mas Karebet.

Well, the confusing part is, why would the sultan agree to marry off his daughter to a commoner like Jaka Tingkir? Wouldnt it be Arya Penangsang, who hailed from a noble family, more qualified?

In the folk lores, according to my late grandfather, Arya Penangsang's kanuragan level was a lot higher compared to the rest of the noblemen, hence nobody even dared to fight him face to face, even after it was found out that he was the man behind the murder of Sultan Trenggono.

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Salam,

Kiai Carita, I believe that song is a narration of Jaka Tingkir's journey to Demak along with his 2 companions / lieutenants to win back Sultan Trenggono's trust after he was banished from the palace for seducing the sultan's princess.

Eventually, Mas Karebet managed to kill a bull that had run amuk near sultan's platform. The sultan finally agreed to marry off his daughter to Mas Karebet.

Well, the confusing part is, why would the sultan agree to marry off his daughter to a commoner like Jaka Tingkir? Wouldnt it be Arya Penangsang, who hailed from a noble family, more qualified?

In the folk lores, according to my late grandfather, Arya Penangsang's kanuragan level was a lot higher compared to the rest of the noblemen, hence nobody even dared to fight him face to face, even after it was found out that he was the man behind the murder of Sultan Trenggono.

The Sultan was in fear that Arya Penangsang was plotting to become King of Jawa. Arya Penangsang was killed through the strategy of making his horse uncontrolable, but even when badly wounded he still was too strong a fighter. He killed himself by accident while he was winning the fight.

Salam hangat,
Bram

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Kia Carita, Penangsang II and kerislovers,

Back to the spirit and the folk lores, what was the role of Kiai Setan Kober? How was the spirit of Kiai Setan Kober? Why was Kiai Setan Kober metioned specially in the folk lores?

Kerislovers, do you have a keris which its dhapur/shape is Setan Kober. May you share its pictures, please?

According to De Graff [?] book: The Fall of Islamic Mataram, there was a rebellion lead by a nobleman during Amangkurat reign. In one day battle, the nobleman who led rebellion run amok. A lot of Mataram soldiers were killed. The nobleman finally exhausted and was killed accidently by his own keris. It was believed that his keris pusaka was "dhapur" (shape) Setan Kober.

warm salam,

Usmen
ps: Thank you, Kiai Carita, for sending mocopat (read four) song. I will sing that song here...in africa

[PenangsangII]

Dear Pak Raden & Kerislovers,

I cannot recollect exactly what my late grandfather told me about 20 years ago, but if I am not mistaken, Kiai Setan Kober had even number of loks, most probably 12 loks. But I never saw or heard dapur Setan Kober before. Perhaps other forumites have more information to offer?

Also, there is a very powerful "Ilmu Pengasih" attributed to Setan Kober .

[David]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Also, there is a very powerful "Ilmu Pengasih" attributed to Setan Kober .

How best would you translate "Ilmu Pengasih"?

[HanaChu69]

Greetings everyone,

It’s a joy being able to network and widen circle of keris collectors friends from around the globe. In addition, you will be able to gain valuable insights on both Malaysian and Indonesian kerises.

Usman – In your earlier posting, there was an indication that a spear spirit has influence not only on the beholder but also on the surrounding community. Can you elaborate in what way exactly?

Sepokal – Wa’alaikumsalam, thank you on your views from a Malay perspective. It’s not easy to be chosen as a successor of “pusaka” with terms and conditions apply. It involves heavy responsibility abiding and observing them. Do take good care of it, my friend.

Penangsang – I have to disagree with you on being at a disadvantage for having mixed parentage. It can be confusing but vice versa for me. In fact I’m blessed being able to understand two different Indonesian dialects and their culture (reading in progress). The remedy is to make positive adjustment and all will turn out fine.

Bram & Ganjawulung – Thank you for the clarification on “ruwat” and “sukerto”. I strongly discourage “larunging” a keris and rather find other alternative solution instead. I’m a go for green person as in “Save the Earth” and avoid pollution. On the other hand, I would like to know how to go about neutralizing them. Is there any other thread that link to this topic?

Pak Alan – Thanks for the referencing. I will check it out and revert on anything interesting.

David – “ilmu pengasih” is the art of attracting men/women (polite term used). I would very much love to see the keris especially with the name of spirit that has “kiai” and “setan” in them.

Best regards,
Hana

P.S - Pardon me for the many questions asked. I believe in the proverbs “He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever”.

[A. G. Maisey]

On the subject of getting rid of troublesome keris, and other wesi aji.

During my lifetime I have been given more than15 keris and tombak and other wesi aji by various people. About half of the items given were given because it was believed that they were a source of problems, the other half were given for various reasons, some because the owner did not want the trouble and responsibility of looking after it any longer, some to bond friendship, one little group of keris and tombak were given by a stranger acting on the directions of her dead husband who had visited her in a dream. In the cases of two of the keris given because it was believed that they were causing problems, after I accepted responsibility for these keris, the fortunes of their previous custodians improved remarkably.In one case the improvement was almost instantaneous. Whether or not it was the keris causing the problems remains open to question, but it is absolutely certain that the previous custodians of these keris believed that once they had relieved themselves of the problem wesi aji, they were also relieved of their problems.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

I cannot recollect exactly what my late grandfather told me about 20 years ago, but if I am not mistaken, Kiai Setan Kober had even number of loks, most probably 12 loks. But I never saw or heard dapur Setan Kober before. Perhaps other forumites have more information to offer?

Also, there is a very powerful "Ilmu Pengasih" attributed to Setan Kober .

Dear Penangsang,
This is about the name of "setan kober". According to an interpretation (my friend, a lecturer in University of Indonesia), actually the name of Ario Penangsang's keris was misinterpreted. Commonly commited error in the past, people mentioned the Ario's keris as "setan kober". So what is in this name? Literally no reasonable meaning of it. "Setan" means satan, or devil. And "Kober" means "to have sufficient" time.

According to my friend's interpretation (he is still studying it), actually not "setan kober", but "sih tan ka uber" or in Indonesian language "kasih tak sampai" (unmaterialized love). Relating to the "unmaterialized love" of Ario Penangsang and the daughter of Sultan Tranggono. The passion of Ario at that time...

Ganjawulung