MADURA ornamental hilts - Page 5

A. G. Maisey · 23rd November 2014, 10:32 PM

Re post 117.

Detlef, Suhartono Rahardjo calls these hilts "janggelan"; Aswin Wirjadi does not show anything quite the same as this hilt style, but he seems to call all Madura hilts that do not fall into the other classifications "janggelan".

Rahardjo may not have known a correct name for them, but Wirjadi should be able to be accepted, because his father-in-law lived in Malang and was recognised as a knowledgeable collector for many years. Malang has strong connections with Madura.

I do not know of any specific name for this hilt style, and my personal belief is that it is more common on the North Coast than in Madura.

Actually, I have severe doubts about the historic authenticity of many of the names that we currently apply to hilts from not only Madura.

One naming that sticks in my craw like dry biscuit is this emerging tendency to call the Solo planar style "tunggak semi".

Pak Parman would be spinning in his grave at this insult.

Tunggak semi is a new shoot on an old stump.

The "stump" is Surakarta, the direct line of the House of Mataram, descended from the House of Majapahit, through the female line.

When Central Jawa was partitioned by the Dutch, Ngayogyakarta needed to create a style (in all things) that varied from the Surakarta style, and the two houses, Surakarta and Ngayogyakarta agreed that the "stump" : Surakarta, would follow the Majapahit line of style, whilst the "new shoot" : Ngayogyakarta, would follow the Mataram Second Kingdom line of style. As part of this agreement the two varying hilt styles emerged.

Now we have people who want to stick "tunggak semi" on everything, including the Surakarta planar styles.

Surakarta may have slipped a little from its previous glory, but it is still the senior division of the House of Mataram, and it is quite incorrect to apply the designation of "new shoot on old stump" to its hilt style.

How can this apply, when Surakarta itself is the "old stump"?

What we see at the present time with a lot of names used in keris related things, are names invented, or applied, by collectors that do serve a purpose for ease of identification amongst other collectors, but often have little or no relevance to historic accuracy, nor in some instances of common societal usage.

This is just one of the elements of the Name Game, and just one of the reasons why I detest this compulsion that persists in the World of the Keris to categorise and classify everything, while at the same time virtually ignoring meanings and intent.

Sajen · 23rd November 2014, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I do not know of any specific name for this hilt style, and my personal belief is that it is more common on the North Coast than in Madura.

This is just one of the elements of the Name Game, and just one of the reasons why I detest this compulsion that persists in the World of the Keris to categorise and classify everything, while at the same time virtually ignoring meanings and intent.

Agree with you in both statements Alan.

Regards,
Detlef

David · 24th November 2014, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

By the way I would like to know how to adjust the size of the embedded pictures in the posts in order to improve their presentation.
Regards

Hi Jean. Your images are perhaps just a little too large, certainly to fit completely on the screen of my laptop, but that isn't necessarily a problem, especially when we want to see the small details in these hilts. It does require a bit of up/down scrolling though. I generally reduce the dimensions of my images to about 12 inches on the long side with the resolution at 72dpi.
If by "how" you me what program to do this adjustment in, there are many. I have photoshop, but there is no need to get such expensive software for this. There are many free, online options. I'd just google something like "photo size adjustment" and see what comes up. Many have been recommended by our members in the past, but i am afraid i don't know which one works best.

Jean · 24th November 2014, 09:14 PM

Thank you David, I just thought that there was a built-in way to adjust the displayed pics size which I may have overlooked like in Word for instance. I will use a lower resolution in future.
Regards

David · 24th November 2014, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Thank you David, I just thought that there was a built-in way to adjust the displayed pics size which I may have overlooked like in Word for instance. I will use a lower resolution in future.
Regards

Just to be clear Jean, it is not resolution you want to lower. That is you ppi (pixels per inch) and you don't want that lower than 72. What you might want to change is the dimensions of the image (height and width).

COYOTE · 21st December 2014, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Hilt 3

Very impressive and rare shape, very creative too. I guess that the balance in the hand is perfect. Madura actually has a unique and exquisite carving art.

Sajen · 18th January 2015, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Here some of the same "family" from a other form, know someone the name for this form?

Here one in the same style from marine ivory which enter my collection a while back.

Paul B. · 23rd January 2020, 08:41 AM

Here is mine very similar to post 17 ( hilt 8) which Alan shows us.
A good examination reveals that it LOTUS flowers are all around.
Does it have a deeper religious meaning or just aesthetical purpose?

The sacred lotus, Nelumbo nucifera, is an aquatic plant that plays a central role in the art of Indian religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, and Jainism.

Symbol for Purity: The lotus flower emerges from murky waters perfectly clean and beautiful, so it is also a symbol for purity. The meaning of the lotus flower holds such power because it can offer hope and strength to people struggling in their daily lives. It is a symbol that shows that no matter where you start off in life and no matter what you're going through, you have the ability to rise above, overcome all negativity and find bliss as you emerge from your struggles.

Paul B. · 1st February 2020, 06:58 PM

Anybody having a clue?

kai · 1st February 2020, 07:31 PM

Hello Paul,

Most of the carved elements are lotus leaves rather than flowers (they are also the most striking part of the plant keeping itself clean from mud/dust with the help of bit of rain); AFAIK they share the same symbolism - purity seems a pretty universal meaning attached to the lotus across many cultures.

Regards,
Kai

RSWORD · 1st February 2020, 08:04 PM

Some more examples for the record.

RSWORD · 1st February 2020, 08:05 PM

Another example.

RSWORD · 1st February 2020, 08:07 PM

Example 3 for the record.

RSWORD · 1st February 2020, 08:09 PM

Fourth example to share.

Gavin Nugent · 20th September 2023, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I selected these hilts for posting because, as I have said, each hilt is a little bit different in some way from the usual run of Madura hilts. I paid no attention to quality, only to whether there was something a bit different in form or motif.When we come down one level, and look at the individual components of the various motifs, some of the inclusions in Madura hilt motifs can create much food for thought.

Alan,

Thank you for bringing this thread to my attention.

Is the type within this post in the link below considered the prototype?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...49&postcount=6
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...&postcount=109

Initial food for thought is that the the hulu is more than just displaying Kuda Sembrani motifs within, but is itself by design Kuda Sembrani, a classic, mythical, and traditional rendition of what seen within motif.

I cannot even think where to begin with the common name for these hulu...

A. G. Maisey · 20th September 2023, 01:52 PM

The donoriko?

I think not, there are a number of hilt forms that are attributed to Madura, and I personally feel that the donoriko is a rather late development.

If we're looking for a beginning we would need to go back before Islam, and to my knowledge nobody has yet attempted that in respect of Madura hilts. However, in general terms the hilt function was protective of the shrine that is the blade, similar to the function of protective statues that guard other shrines & temples. Thus what we see in post Hindu-Buddhist hilts is a distillation from humanoid forms.

24th November 2014, 09:14 PM	#124
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you David, I just thought that there was a built-in way to adjust the displayed pics size which I may have overlooked like in Word for instance. I will use a lower resolution in future. Regards Last edited by Jean; 24th November 2014 at 09:34 PM.

23rd January 2020, 08:41 AM	#128
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	Here is mine very similar to post 17 ( hilt 8) which Alan shows us. A good examination reveals that it LOTUS flowers are all around. Does it have a deeper religious meaning or just aesthetical purpose? The sacred lotus, Nelumbo nucifera, is an aquatic plant that plays a central role in the art of Indian religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, and Jainism. Symbol for Purity: The lotus flower emerges from murky waters perfectly clean and beautiful, so it is also a symbol for purity. The meaning of the lotus flower holds such power because it can offer hope and strength to people struggling in their daily lives. It is a symbol that shows that no matter where you start off in life and no matter what you're going through, you have the ability to rise above, overcome all negativity and find bliss as you emerge from your struggles. Attached Images

1st February 2020, 08:04 PM	#131
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Some more examples for the record. Attached Images

1st February 2020, 08:05 PM	#132
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Another example. Attached Images

1st February 2020, 08:07 PM	#133
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Example 3 for the record. Attached Images

23rd November 2014, 10:32 PM	#121
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Re post 117. Detlef, Suhartono Rahardjo calls these hilts "janggelan"; Aswin Wirjadi does not show anything quite the same as this hilt style, but he seems to call all Madura hilts that do not fall into the other classifications "janggelan". Rahardjo may not have known a correct name for them, but Wirjadi should be able to be accepted, because his father-in-law lived in Malang and was recognised as a knowledgeable collector for many years. Malang has strong connections with Madura. I do not know of any specific name for this hilt style, and my personal belief is that it is more common on the North Coast than in Madura. Actually, I have severe doubts about the historic authenticity of many of the names that we currently apply to hilts from not only Madura. One naming that sticks in my craw like dry biscuit is this emerging tendency to call the Solo planar style "tunggak semi". Pak Parman would be spinning in his grave at this insult. Tunggak semi is a new shoot on an old stump. The "stump" is Surakarta, the direct line of the House of Mataram, descended from the House of Majapahit, through the female line. When Central Jawa was partitioned by the Dutch, Ngayogyakarta needed to create a style (in all things) that varied from the Surakarta style, and the two houses, Surakarta and Ngayogyakarta agreed that the "stump" : Surakarta, would follow the Majapahit line of style, whilst the "new shoot" : Ngayogyakarta, would follow the Mataram Second Kingdom line of style. As part of this agreement the two varying hilt styles emerged. Now we have people who want to stick "tunggak semi" on everything, including the Surakarta planar styles. Surakarta may have slipped a little from its previous glory, but it is still the senior division of the House of Mataram, and it is quite incorrect to apply the designation of "new shoot on old stump" to its hilt style. How can this apply, when Surakarta itself is the "old stump"? What we see at the present time with a lot of names used in keris related things, are names invented, or applied, by collectors that do serve a purpose for ease of identification amongst other collectors, but often have little or no relevance to historic accuracy, nor in some instances of common societal usage. This is just one of the elements of the Name Game, and just one of the reasons why I detest this compulsion that persists in the World of the Keris to categorise and classify everything, while at the same time virtually ignoring meanings and intent.

1st February 2020, 06:58 PM	#129
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	Anybody having a clue?

1st February 2020, 07:31 PM	#130
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Paul, Most of the carved elements are lotus leaves rather than flowers (they are also the most striking part of the plant keeping itself clean from mud/dust with the help of bit of rain); AFAIK they share the same symbolism - purity seems a pretty universal meaning attached to the lotus across many cultures. Regards, Kai

1st February 2020, 08:09 PM	#134
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Fourth example to share. Attached Images

20th September 2023, 01:52 PM	#136
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	The donoriko? I think not, there are a number of hilt forms that are attributed to Madura, and I personally feel that the donoriko is a rather late development. If we're looking for a beginning we would need to go back before Islam, and to my knowledge nobody has yet attempted that in respect of Madura hilts. However, in general terms the hilt function was protective of the shrine that is the blade, similar to the function of protective statues that guard other shrines & temples. Thus what we see in post Hindu-Buddhist hilts is a distillation from humanoid forms.