Chronological listing of Polish-Lithuanian and Hungarian sabers

[Teisani]

Benedek Borsó of Cserneki 1613. Inscription: "16: 13 G. I. M. T. Benedictus Borso de Cernek (manu) p(ro)p(ri)a. Kegyelmed atyafya et baratya minden korr. Genade dir Gott." https://hu.m.wikibooks.org/wiki/Fájl...nedek_képe.jpg

[Teisani]

King Rudolf of Hungary 1577-1582.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...zis/adatlap/57

[Teisani]

King Rudolf of Hungary => Mihály Kovács of Dicske | renewal of coat of arms. This dude's fighting a lion. He is very western in outfit.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/7363
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/1351
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/1343

[Teisani]

King Rudolph of Hungary => Mátyás Terczák of Drasty, castle lord of Gradec castle | renewal of coat of arms 1579
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/7345

[Teisani]

King Ferdinand I of Hungary => Márton Balázsdeák | coat of arms, Hungarian nobility 1563.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/2622

[Teisani]

King Rudolph of Hungary => István Pap of Miskolc | coat of arms, Hungarian nobility 1582. Good details on the sword hilt.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/7700

All these S-quillons and 8-quillons on Hungarian koncerz and pallash, remind me of other earlier Hungarian swords with similar guards . This thread is full of them. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...7&postcount=20

[Teisani]

Here is an example of why basing ourselves on these depictions in coats of arms / CoA. This one from 1582 has a man in typical Hungarian fashion, but with a knightly sword. It could be a pallash with a pommel, it could be e Germanic sword. We don't know for sure. This CoA may be old enough to depict weapons from an earlier period, and was inherited unchanged. To make things worse, Hungary, Wallachia, Moldova, Poland-Lithuania etc. were a mix of East and West, so both are probable.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/7742

[Teisani]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Note silk knots through specially dedicated holes in the sword grips.

Yes, in my opinion a very "Ottoman" trait. It shows that early 16th century Kingdom of Hungary troops still had some basically identical kit to Ottoman troops. Note, I use Ottoman for simplicity. Check out these "wounded Uzbek prisoner" themed artworks. Notice the sword-knots, very faint unfortunately. Some are hanging on the cross-guard to stop them from flopping around. All have banana-hilts
https://www.flickr.com/photos/persia...ng/36136461795
https://artgallery.yale.edu/collections/objects/91394

[Teisani]

At some point the Ottoman cavalry started to adopt the koncerz. And Ottoman miniatures can provide a wealth of knowledge.
http://warfare.tk/Ottoman/Suleymanname/Suleymanname.htm
Here is an illustrations from the Süleymanname 1558 showing Ottoman Deli Sinan fighting against the Hungarian Eugene at the battle of Mohacs 1526. Notice the koncerz under the deli's left thigh.


Another one from the same source shows a duel. Both combatants are equipped with koncerz' under their thighs.


In both instances, the Ottoman's koncerz has an "8-guard".

[Teisani]

More details from thos one. Note, I think that 1572 is the correct date. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...&postcount=105

[Teisani]

King Ferdinand I of Hungary => Nehóczy Boldizsár noble, Bálint Nehóczy noble | renewal of coat of arms 1560. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/7283

[Teisani]

Helmets aren't perfect. János II elected Hungarian king => András Kotecz of Sajó | coat of arms 1560.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/1310

[Teisani]

Member of the elite "rabbit hussars" atop his powerful goat. Year of such calamity, 1582. Armed with lance and wide cross-guard sabre, king Bathory would have been proud to command such destructive potential. Just imagine David Attenborough's voice while reading this .
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/7465

[Teisani]

King Rudolph of Hungary => Ferenc Győry | coat of arms, 1604. Horse with koncerz. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/1006

[Teisani]

István Bocskai, Hungarian and Transylvanian prince => Miklós Segnyey of Lapispataki, captain of Kassa | coat of arms, 1606. Cavalry fight scenes with winged hussars. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/5452

[Teisani]

Báthory Gábor grants CoA in 1613. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...is/adatlap/199
Báthory Gábor grants CoA in 1608. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/6972
Similar hilt to this http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...0&postcount=63

[Reventlov]

Originally Posted by Teisani

King of Hungary, Ulászló, Buda 1515. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/7197

Hard to make out the details, but perhaps this shows the classic "Hungarian" S-shaped guard which we know from mostly older swords and sabers, as seen here and here.



Another example of the 1470s is in Austria, but the artist Hans Siebenbürger was evidently a Transylvanian Saxon, the land of "Seven Castles" (German: Siebenbürgen).

[Teisani]

Originally Posted by Reventlov

Attachment 225534
Hard to make out the details, but perhaps this shows the classic "Hungarian" S-shaped guard which we know from mostly older swords and sabers...

In my opinion, it's more likely to represent an Ottoman style sabre. You can see the angled end-cap like on these sabres.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...4&postcount=26
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...7&postcount=64
And the cross-guard looks like this one.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...4&postcount=24

[awdaniec666]

Now that we have seen lots of s-guards and banana-hilts, it would be a great time to dig up those depictions of Tatar sabers or other under-represented forms (Ordynka, Czeczuga, Ormianka etc.).
Hopefully I can also come up with some paintings including the Polish knuckle-bow saber in the future (Mr. Z´s Class I which I have mentioned very briefly in the Karabela Guide).

[Teisani]

THE ADORATION OF THE MAGI. About 1514. St. Paul and Peter's Catholic Church, Dryswiaty, Braslau district, Vitebsk region. The main painting might be from 1514, but in my opinion the inserted image of the hussar is a later addition, due to the stylistic difference between the two images. So unfortunately I don't think it can provide much info.
Hmmm... maybe the coat of arms next can be of some use in dating the hussar depiction.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...90;ы.jpg



He doesn't very different to the figures in the "Tablica gołuchowska" from circa 1620. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...2;uchowska.jpg. Note: the example on the Wikipedia page seems to be a reproduction. I believe this one to be the original.

[Teisani]

This site looks like a nice source for some depictions. https://17c.org.ua/dzherela

The embassy of Bohdan Khmelnytskyi to Janusz Radziwill in 1651. Abraham van Westerfeld. They look like tatar sabres

[Teisani]

Here's something that caught my eye. While browsing the pictures in the site mentioned above, this "fragment of a painting of the palace in Kielce (Poland) in the 1630s" had two hussars, who appear to be wearing sabres with typical boot-hilt, and cross-guard with side-ring. It's not the best clarity, so the side-ring aspect is debatable.


Then I remembered that I had seen a sabre with a side-ring before... in this depiction of Nikola Zrinski (Ban of Croatia 1647-1664) from the Klebebände (Band 2) by Jacob von Sandrart (publisher) 17th century. At first I thought it was a fantasy design, but now I must reconsider my verdict.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...and_02_337.jpg

[Teisani]

Add to this, the fact that in the Stockholm Roll from 1605 we have some Polish infantryman carrying what appear to be sabres with knuckle-bows and side-rings. They could be dusägge/dussack type sabres, but usually these have more complex hilts and pommels. So, any opinions?

[awdaniec666]

Originally Posted by Teisani

So, any opinions?

This could be the early Lithuanian modification of Hungarian sabers. Lithuanians seem to have preferred more protective guards. There are plenty of examples from around 1700. These here could be predecessors. This is just a guess for now.

[Teisani]

Patrick, I would like to comment a bit on a picture in karabela section of your document on page 1. The picture is from "Turnierbuch von Erzherzog Ferdinand II. Fol. 167, Austria after 1557, Kunstkammer Inv.-Nr. 5134. On closer inspection, I don't think de depiction is of a karabela-hilted sabre, rather a banana-hilt. I've attached it, and a few more photos from it. https://www.facebook.com/Wissenswert...Epochen/photos






And from Hochzeitskodex Erzherzog Ferdinands II.: Ferdinand und Wilhelm 1582. Künstler/in: Sigmund Elsässer

[awdaniec666]

Teisani,
hm.., with respect to the quality of the paintings I think we can interpret the hilts as they are shown to us and that hilt is clearly shaped like an eagle-head.

[awdaniec666]

Some more depictions I found recently.

1. Hieronim Radziwill in his hussarish wedding dress, Poland-Lithuania - anno 1764
2. Stanislaw Herakliusz Lubomirski, Poland-Lithuania - 2nd half of the 17th century (note the scabbard of the Karabela -clearly a battle type- beeing decorated in red instead of black, in contrast to some authors who claim these were only encased with black leather. It´s also interesting that the hilt is probably made of wood or horn despite the rank of the bearer, which is an argument against claims that simple hilts were used solely by the lower class nobles who could not afford lavishly decorated hilts. The Lubomirski family was one of the richest in Europe at that time.)

[Teisani]

1 - Thököly Imre from Transylvania, born 1657 - died 1705. Karabela hilt sabre. Chevrons on the hilt are visible.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...ump-to-license


2- Pálffy Miklós 1552–1600 from Transylvania. I'm unsure if this portret was made much after his death, it's from Klebeband Nr. 1. I believe we should be careful with these portrets, since some could be later copies of lost originals, and could contain elements from later periods. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...ump-to-license

At his side there is a typical boot-hilted sabre. In the lower left corner two sabres which look like karabela hilt, however they also seen reminescent of german hunting-sword hilts, like these here. They lack the languette on the side of the guard, but it's pretty common for period depictions to omit this detail. Opinions?

[Teisani]

3 Styrian sabre blades + crossguards, mace, hussar helmet and lammelar breastplate remnants found in the tomb possibly of Bathory Ferecz (died 1597-1602) or Elek Bathory (died 1587) in Pericei, Sălaj county, Romania 2021, by a team from the Muzeul Judeţean de Istorie şi Artă Zalău.

One the x-ray picture looks like a pallash with a triple fullered, double edged blade.

https://maszol.ro/belfold/Tizenhatod...agyperecsenben
https://www.agerpres.ro/cultura/2023...ricei--1176447
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Exijdoh1TVI
https://muzeuzalau.ro/rezultate-starea-actuala/

[Teisani]

Clearest pictures I've managed to find so far.
https://www.nuremberg.museum/project...-relief-plates