Frontier Arithmetic: The Afghan Jezail - Page 4

rickystl · 25th January 2021, 05:52 PM

Thanks Stu

Received a PM from Patrick.

Rick

SchildaBrit · 2nd April 2021, 11:17 AM

OK, it took a long time, thanks to Covid range restrictions etc.

But I did it.

See the new thread!

Napo7 · 13th May 2025, 02:53 PM

Hello everyone, I recently picked this one up, and out of curiosity after reading your messages, I decided to look at all the pieces one by one.
If anyone could tell me what they think, thank you.

Napo7 · 13th May 2025, 03:01 PM

Hello, how do I upload photos, please?
Thank you.

Lee · 14th May 2025, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Napo7

how do I upload photos, please?
Thank you.

Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13631

Napo7 · 14th May 2025, 12:22 PM

I did what you told me to but I can't make it work, but it may be because I'm using a phone since I don't have a computer. Could someone contact me so I send them the pictures to let them post it for me, thanks.

Jim McDougall · 15th May 2025, 05:23 AM

This is a great example of an original British EIC lock on a very old jezail!
The lock by John Fox Twigg, an English maker who moved to Piccadilly in 1776, the year on this lock, seems original and in accord with other examples of his guns found. This would have been from the Windus pattern musket (of 1771) which were likely in India with the EIC during the Anglo-Maratha war 1775-1782.
from there the original gun may have traveled north to Sindh at some point, with the British finally taking these regions in 1843. If I recall, it seems that components such as barrels etc.used in Afghan regions for jezails came from Sindh among other sources.

John Twigg died in 1790. While the placement and character of the EIC quartered heart with VEIC (United East India Company) with talismanic '4' atop the bale mark; date; and TWIGG in the same bold letter styling and serifs seen on other examples............are correct, it does seem the hardware in the lock has of course been reworked.

This is a perfect example of the kinds of jezails used well into the 20th century in the Khyber Pass and environs, so thank you so much for sharing it here Napo7 !!!

Napo7 · 16th May 2025, 10:15 PM

Thanks you very much Jim i appreciated

Napo7 · 17th May 2025, 06:20 PM

Thanks you very much Jim

rickystl · 17th May 2025, 07:08 PM

Hi Jim

WOW!!! Can't believe six years has slipped by since your first Post on this Thread. Where has the time gone ??

I just re-read this entire Thread from the beginning. It reminded me what a great discussion came about. Thank you again for starting this Thread. Much was learned.

An interesting note with reference to the barrels on these Jazails. Of all I have personally seen and/or examined, about 70% were rifled with about 30% being smooth bore. Of course, the rifled barrel would be an advantage for longer ranges for accuracy. But the smooth bore also had the advantage of being able to fire a variety of shot, faster to reload, and easier to clean. The Afghan locals likely knew this the same as Europeans.
I've never seen or read any real evidence of local Afghan barrel making during this period. The barrels on these Jazails seem to have come from a variety of locations. Northern India, Persia, Sindh, Ottoman, ??? Not really sure. Sindh did produce some beautiful rifled barrels. Maybe the Afghan locals had enough sources from contingent countries to make their own barrel making unnecessary (?) One thing I have NOT seen on these Jazails is the reuse of British musket barrels. Which of course were all large caliber smooth bores not compatible for long range shooting.

Anyway. glad to see this old Thread pop up again. LOL

Rick

Jim McDougall · 17th May 2025, 07:37 PM

Thank you Rick! especially for the kind words!

As you note, there would not have been much attraction to British barrels except perhaps in some incidental cases where such were all that was available. I only have cursory reading and knowledge in firearms, so very much appreciate your insights as Im well aware of your expertise.

Well made points on the barrels used by Afghans, and the advantage of smooth bores with the wider scope of ammunition used, and that these types of guns were good for certain warfare situations.

What I have always noted about these Khyber tribesmen is as noted in Kipling, the incredible marksmanship of these snipers. In the defile of the Khyber this seemed to have been one of the key factors of control and manner of that.
It seems I read in some reference that although there were a few examples of barrels that MIGHT have had Afghan origin, but that seemed speculative, and with that would have likely been artisans from the regions most came from.
With the locks however, it seems these were the component consistently used, and later copied profusely.

2nd April 2021, 11:17 AM	#92
SchildaBrit Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Posts: 33	Shooting an original Jezail rifle OK, it took a long time, thanks to Covid range restrictions etc. But I did it. See the new thread!

13th May 2025, 03:01 PM	#94
Napo7 Member Join Date: May 2025 Posts: 5	Help me please Hello, how do I upload photos, please? Thank you.

14th May 2025, 12:22 PM	#96
Napo7 Member Join Date: May 2025 Posts: 5	Photo I did what you told me to but I can't make it work, but it may be because I'm using a phone since I don't have a computer. Could someone contact me so I send them the pictures to let them post it for me, thanks. Attached Images

17th May 2025, 06:20 PM	#99
Napo7 Member Join Date: May 2025 Posts: 5	:) Thanks you very much Jim

25th January 2021, 05:52 PM	#91
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Thanks Stu Received a PM from Patrick. Rick

13th May 2025, 02:53 PM	#93
Napo7 Member Join Date: May 2025 Posts: 5	Hello everyone, I recently picked this one up, and out of curiosity after reading your messages, I decided to look at all the pieces one by one. If anyone could tell me what they think, thank you.

15th May 2025, 05:23 AM	#97
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,275	This is a great example of an original British EIC lock on a very old jezail! The lock by John Fox Twigg, an English maker who moved to Piccadilly in 1776, the year on this lock, seems original and in accord with other examples of his guns found. This would have been from the Windus pattern musket (of 1771) which were likely in India with the EIC during the Anglo-Maratha war 1775-1782. from there the original gun may have traveled north to Sindh at some point, with the British finally taking these regions in 1843. If I recall, it seems that components such as barrels etc.used in Afghan regions for jezails came from Sindh among other sources. John Twigg died in 1790. While the placement and character of the EIC quartered heart with VEIC (United East India Company) with talismanic '4' atop the bale mark; date; and TWIGG in the same bold letter styling and serifs seen on other examples............are correct, it does seem the hardware in the lock has of course been reworked. This is a perfect example of the kinds of jezails used well into the 20th century in the Khyber Pass and environs, so thank you so much for sharing it here Napo7 !!!

16th May 2025, 10:15 PM	#98
Napo7 Member Join Date: May 2025 Posts: 5	Thanks you very much Jim i appreciated

17th May 2025, 07:08 PM	#100
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Hi Jim WOW!!! Can't believe six years has slipped by since your first Post on this Thread. Where has the time gone ?? I just re-read this entire Thread from the beginning. It reminded me what a great discussion came about. Thank you again for starting this Thread. Much was learned. An interesting note with reference to the barrels on these Jazails. Of all I have personally seen and/or examined, about 70% were rifled with about 30% being smooth bore. Of course, the rifled barrel would be an advantage for longer ranges for accuracy. But the smooth bore also had the advantage of being able to fire a variety of shot, faster to reload, and easier to clean. The Afghan locals likely knew this the same as Europeans. I've never seen or read any real evidence of local Afghan barrel making during this period. The barrels on these Jazails seem to have come from a variety of locations. Northern India, Persia, Sindh, Ottoman, ??? Not really sure. Sindh did produce some beautiful rifled barrels. Maybe the Afghan locals had enough sources from contingent countries to make their own barrel making unnecessary (?) One thing I have NOT seen on these Jazails is the reuse of British musket barrels. Which of course were all large caliber smooth bores not compatible for long range shooting. Anyway. glad to see this old Thread pop up again. LOL Rick

17th May 2025, 07:37 PM	#101
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,275	Thank you Rick! especially for the kind words! As you note, there would not have been much attraction to British barrels except perhaps in some incidental cases where such were all that was available. I only have cursory reading and knowledge in firearms, so very much appreciate your insights as Im well aware of your expertise. Well made points on the barrels used by Afghans, and the advantage of smooth bores with the wider scope of ammunition used, and that these types of guns were good for certain warfare situations. What I have always noted about these Khyber tribesmen is as noted in Kipling, the incredible marksmanship of these snipers. In the defile of the Khyber this seemed to have been one of the key factors of control and manner of that. It seems I read in some reference that although there were a few examples of barrels that MIGHT have had Afghan origin, but that seemed speculative, and with that would have likely been artisans from the regions most came from. With the locks however, it seems these were the component consistently used, and later copied profusely.