Austrian hussar sabre for ID - Page 4

awdaniec666 · 16th January 2024, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

Hilts with these big rivets I only know from Bavarian swords and sabres, so I wrote "probably". See the scans from "Gerd Maier, Bayerische Blankwaffen Teil 1-3"

Thanks a lot!

Quote:

Originally Posted by toaster5sqn

It is also a technique for one on one duels ...

While I´m a big enthusiast of bringing in HEMA experience into arms and armour studies, one must recognize that fighting on horseback and cavalry maneuvers in general have nothing to do with fencing (when defined as one vs one on ground). This is why I think the notches have a more "practical/tool-like" context. But hey - who knows!

Jim McDougall · 16th January 2024, 07:23 PM

RySays, that cite from 1836 reference with regard to the deliberate notching (barbing?) of epee is most telling.
As I have noted many times over the years, my intrigue with this curious notching of sword blades near the point at back began with Wagner's work in 1967 which showed a number of Austrian blades with such notches.

In over two decades of research, most fencing authorities, museums (including those holding original examples) , military historians etc. had virtually no idea on these 'notches'. It was truly as if nobody had paid any attention to this deliberate and curious feature, and worse, the general attitude 'who cares'? became evident.

It is this 'attitude' which often prevails in historical trivia that piques my antiquarian obsessions, and I simply must at least try to find an answer.
You guys here have far more exposure and experience in European resources as well evidenced in these outstanding and salient entries.

A favorite film of mine, "the Duelists" (1977) directed by Ridley Scott, is to me one of the most superb movies and attention to detail in historical aspects as well as some of the best dueling scenes, and which to me are captivating.
While of course there are many critics who will say otherwise, that is to be expected, however of most fencing authorities I have known and talked with concur with my view in the general accuracy portrayed.

While HEMA is a wonderful study on historic martial arts, some of the fencing masters I have known have certain reservations toward that organization in similar fashion. It is of course a matter of opinion and perspective.

Naturally there are differences in the elements of swordplay when engaged in combat or as seen in the movie,"the Duelists' in a cavalry duel, from those employed in the typical arranged duel. I recall Christoph Amberger years ago when we talked about the 1812 painting "Officer of the Imperial Horse Guards Charging" where he had noted the possible connection of the portrayal with a 'rear guard' action of scheduled sword combat while mounted.
In the mounted duel in the film 'The Duelist' the riders are in position to 'give point' with the sword held high and straight forward.

Basically what I am saying is that, the notching of blades in this manner for the purpose of inflicting distracting wounds, as shown here in the case of dueling, makes perfect sense. As seen in the 1977 film, dueling with regular cavalry sabers was of course practiced in many cases, and the 1908 work "The Duel", by Joseph Conrad, on which the movie is based, the fierce obsession with 'honor' was prevalent in the military much as in the civilian gentry.
It seems profoundly plausible that military officers would have swords so notched, for the instance of such a duel, or to allude to such readiness......and the 'notch' had nothing to do with worsening of wounds in actual combat, nor for the mundane work as a tool for retrieving objects.

Jim McDougall · 17th January 2024, 05:24 AM

In another interesting twist with the notch, from "Lore of Arms" (Reid, 1976), is this hunting sword captioned in line drawing 'of late 17th c'.
The blade is by Corrientes (#24 in Palomares, but working in Madrid, not Toledo as indicated in illustration) with name unusually at back of blade near forte.

The 'notch' is illustrated near the point as in discussed examples.

fernando · 17th January 2024, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... The blade is by Corrientes (#24 in Palomares, but working in Madrid, not Toledo as indicated in illustration) with name unusually at back of blade near forte...

In Palomares chart it says he also worked in Madrid. As also mentioned by Leguina

.
According to Rodriguez del Canto, Corrientes is said to have already forged short blades for espadines (short swords).

Jim McDougall · 17th January 2024, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

In Palomares chart it says he also worked in Madrid. As also mentioned by Leguina

.
According to Rodriguez del Canto, Corrientes is said to have already forged short blades for espadines (short swords).

Thank you so much Fernando. I have been trying to work through old notes and references on the Spanish blades still working on the dilemma discussed with the SEBASTIAN HERNANDEZ blades, as I think there is far more to this case than I had thought. Basically while I have it seems been inclined to defer to most of these blades being German, you of course had reservations, which now seem to have been well placed, and your position toward some cases being to the early masters. As you had suggested, though Toledo was in decline, it did not mean the masters disappeared......but as you noted, were likely working in some of the other Spanish centers.

While I have found Beraiz, and Lorente (on the perillo) I cannot find my copies of del Canto,Legiuna, nor Lhermite .

The note on Corrientes having made short blades for ESPADINES is perfect!! and most valuable information, thank you again!

Best,
Jim

fernando · 17th January 2024, 04:30 PM

Speaking of Toledo decline and as read in Don Enrique de Leguina (Los Maestros Espaderos 1897), still in 1627 Toledan blades were quoted to have the highest prices around, such as 24 reales; while those of Seville were priced 22 reales and those from Germany having a significant lower price; 10 reales.

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awdaniec666 · 17th January 2024, 04:45 PM

I must say that I´m not convinced regarding the use of those nothces in fencing. This beeing said I´ll observe where this is going.

Jim McDougall · 17th January 2024, 07:32 PM

it does seem in more reading that Toledo activity did continue in degree past 1650, as per the dating of a number of authentic Spanish blades I found in references.

666, no problem with being skeptical on the notches (to create a 'barb' for wounding in dueling, not particularly fencing per se'). I admit being entirely skeptical for these clearly deliberate notches on swords pragmatically suggested for 'picking up items' as the notch is patently insufficient for such.

As for unusual 'tricks' and 'features' in the swordplay employed in dueling, these are of course known and understandable, but not particularly well documented any more than the legendary, 'botte secrete'.
In the 'Spanish fight', la Verdedara Destreza, the primary objective, as I have understood, was to disarm the opponent, or force concession. In most instances it would seem that protection of honor by satisfaction was the goal, and such wounding distractions would provide such release.

I think these are the perspectives to be considered, rather than the dramatic notion of such barbs/notches being intended to worsen wounds in a thrust, which is also as far as I can see, patently unnecessary.

That leaves very little room for a plausible explanation for this mysterious convention which seems to have quite deliberately placed on the blades of a good number of swords in Austria, France, Hungary, Netherlands in the early to mid 18th century, possibly later. In these cases, it would seem the feature was nominally placed in the blades with potential dueling in mind, regardless of such possibility.
With cavalry, especially the hussars, fashion and flamboyant allusion was important, so the notion of a 'dueling' notch on a mans blade......well, you see what I mean?

Victrix · 17th January 2024, 08:10 PM

Regarding the notches, I guess one should keep an open mind until theories can be disproven. Earlier in the thread one of our more esteemed experienced members mentioned notches on pallasches and mentioned in post #16 that he had not seen them on Austro-Hungarian sabres. He mentioned he had seen them on German swords as well. Then it seems there are some British and Dutch swords that have them as well. It should be realised that people often served in foreign armies to gain experience. So there could have been Germans serving in British or Dutch forces and notching their swords. You wonder what the authorities thought about the notches and whether regulations allowed it.

Interesting theory about notches used for duels. In Germanic countries they still have student fraternities devoted to sword duels. But wouldn’t Wagner have known about this? Also were pallasches really used in duels?? They look too clumsy to “fence” with, especially on foot.

Coincidentally, Santa gave me a notched sword for Christmas. I learned about the notches on this forum and thought it would be a nice example to have in my collection… More on that later. Then you can all start the debate on notches afresh.

fernando · 17th January 2024, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

it does seem in more reading that Toledo activity did continue in degree past 1650, as per the dating of a number of authentic Spanish blades I found in references...

In 1760, during a period in which Palomares and others intended to request the King to revive the factory, he has wrote in his report: "Es indudable que la Fabrica de espadas de Toledo floreció con gran fama hasta fin del siglo XVII"; meaning: There is no doubt that the Sword Factory of Toledo flourished with great fame until the end of the 17th century.
(Espaderos Toledanos by Esperanza Pedraza Ruiz).

fernando · 17th January 2024, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

... Then you can all start the debate on notches afresh.

...

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Jim McDougall · 17th January 2024, 09:55 PM

Absolutely good stuff Fernando!!! Your resources are outstanding and your command through them remarkable. I must say you've given me totally new perspective on the Toledo dilemma. It would seem that despite the Solingen incursion into the sword blade market share, there were some masters still active carrying the Toledo tradition.

On the notches, again, perspective.
For me at least, it has been a most constructive 'discussion' which has presented new insights into a perplexing mystery that has vexed me for over two decades. I am deeply grateful for the insights and opinions shared by the very well informed guys here!

regardless if a final solution is reached or not.

Victrix....REALLY, you got a notched saber from Santa? NO FAIR!
REALLY looking forward to more as promised.

16th January 2024, 07:23 PM	#92
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	RySays, that cite from 1836 reference with regard to the deliberate notching (barbing?) of epee is most telling. As I have noted many times over the years, my intrigue with this curious notching of sword blades near the point at back began with Wagner's work in 1967 which showed a number of Austrian blades with such notches. In over two decades of research, most fencing authorities, museums (including those holding original examples) , military historians etc. had virtually no idea on these 'notches'. It was truly as if nobody had paid any attention to this deliberate and curious feature, and worse, the general attitude 'who cares'? became evident. It is this 'attitude' which often prevails in historical trivia that piques my antiquarian obsessions, and I simply must at least try to find an answer. You guys here have far more exposure and experience in European resources as well evidenced in these outstanding and salient entries. A favorite film of mine, "the Duelists" (1977) directed by Ridley Scott, is to me one of the most superb movies and attention to detail in historical aspects as well as some of the best dueling scenes, and which to me are captivating. While of course there are many critics who will say otherwise, that is to be expected, however of most fencing authorities I have known and talked with concur with my view in the general accuracy portrayed. While HEMA is a wonderful study on historic martial arts, some of the fencing masters I have known have certain reservations toward that organization in similar fashion. It is of course a matter of opinion and perspective. Naturally there are differences in the elements of swordplay when engaged in combat or as seen in the movie,"the Duelists' in a cavalry duel, from those employed in the typical arranged duel. I recall Christoph Amberger years ago when we talked about the 1812 painting "Officer of the Imperial Horse Guards Charging" where he had noted the possible connection of the portrayal with a 'rear guard' action of scheduled sword combat while mounted. In the mounted duel in the film 'The Duelist' the riders are in position to 'give point' with the sword held high and straight forward. Basically what I am saying is that, the notching of blades in this manner for the purpose of inflicting distracting wounds, as shown here in the case of dueling, makes perfect sense. As seen in the 1977 film, dueling with regular cavalry sabers was of course practiced in many cases, and the 1908 work "The Duel", by Joseph Conrad, on which the movie is based, the fierce obsession with 'honor' was prevalent in the military much as in the civilian gentry. It seems profoundly plausible that military officers would have swords so notched, for the instance of such a duel, or to allude to such readiness......and the 'notch' had nothing to do with worsening of wounds in actual combat, nor for the mundane work as a tool for retrieving objects. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 16th January 2024 at 07:35 PM.

17th January 2024, 05:24 AM	#93
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Hunting sword with notch In another interesting twist with the notch, from "Lore of Arms" (Reid, 1976), is this hunting sword captioned in line drawing 'of late 17th c'. The blade is by Corrientes (#24 in Palomares, but working in Madrid, not Toledo as indicated in illustration) with name unusually at back of blade near forte. The 'notch' is illustrated near the point as in discussed examples. Attached Images

17th January 2024, 04:30 PM	#96
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Speaking of Toledo decline and as read in Don Enrique de Leguina (Los Maestros Espaderos 1897), still in 1627 Toledan blades were quoted to have the highest prices around, such as 24 reales; while those of Seville were priced 22 reales and those from Germany having a significant lower price; 10 reales. - Attached Images

17th January 2024, 04:45 PM	#97
awdaniec666 Member Join Date: May 2021 Location: Central Europe Posts: 167	I must say that I´m not convinced regarding the use of those nothces in fencing. This beeing said I´ll observe where this is going.

17th January 2024, 07:32 PM	#98
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	it does seem in more reading that Toledo activity did continue in degree past 1650, as per the dating of a number of authentic Spanish blades I found in references. 666, no problem with being skeptical on the notches (to create a 'barb' for wounding in dueling, not particularly fencing per se'). I admit being entirely skeptical for these clearly deliberate notches on swords pragmatically suggested for 'picking up items' as the notch is patently insufficient for such. As for unusual 'tricks' and 'features' in the swordplay employed in dueling, these are of course known and understandable, but not particularly well documented any more than the legendary, 'botte secrete'. In the 'Spanish fight', la Verdedara Destreza, the primary objective, as I have understood, was to disarm the opponent, or force concession. In most instances it would seem that protection of honor by satisfaction was the goal, and such wounding distractions would provide such release. I think these are the perspectives to be considered, rather than the dramatic notion of such barbs/notches being intended to worsen wounds in a thrust, which is also as far as I can see, patently unnecessary. That leaves very little room for a plausible explanation for this mysterious convention which seems to have quite deliberately placed on the blades of a good number of swords in Austria, France, Hungary, Netherlands in the early to mid 18th century, possibly later. In these cases, it would seem the feature was nominally placed in the blades with potential dueling in mind, regardless of such possibility. With cavalry, especially the hussars, fashion and flamboyant allusion was important, so the notion of a 'dueling' notch on a mans blade......well, you see what I mean?

17th January 2024, 08:10 PM	#99
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 713	Regarding the notches, I guess one should keep an open mind until theories can be disproven. Earlier in the thread one of our more esteemed experienced members mentioned notches on pallasches and mentioned in post #16 that he had not seen them on Austro-Hungarian sabres. He mentioned he had seen them on German swords as well. Then it seems there are some British and Dutch swords that have them as well. It should be realised that people often served in foreign armies to gain experience. So there could have been Germans serving in British or Dutch forces and notching their swords. You wonder what the authorities thought about the notches and whether regulations allowed it. Interesting theory about notches used for duels. In Germanic countries they still have student fraternities devoted to sword duels. But wouldn’t Wagner have known about this? Also were pallasches really used in duels?? They look too clumsy to “fence” with, especially on foot. Coincidentally, Santa gave me a notched sword for Christmas. I learned about the notches on this forum and thought it would be a nice example to have in my collection… More on that later. Then you can all start the debate on notches afresh.

17th January 2024, 09:55 PM	#102
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Absolutely good stuff Fernando!!! Your resources are outstanding and your command through them remarkable. I must say you've given me totally new perspective on the Toledo dilemma. It would seem that despite the Solingen incursion into the sword blade market share, there were some masters still active carrying the Toledo tradition. On the notches, again, perspective. For me at least, it has been a most constructive 'discussion' which has presented new insights into a perplexing mystery that has vexed me for over two decades. I am deeply grateful for the insights and opinions shared by the very well informed guys here! regardless if a final solution is reached or not. Victrix....REALLY, you got a notched saber from Santa? NO FAIR! REALLY looking forward to more as promised.