My gunong collection and some thoughts

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Rick

I think there's also a chance this handle is of Tridacna, or the Giant Clam shell .
I didn't get to see the item description on ebay; are there any more pictures available Detlef ?

Hello Rick,
that would be a nice surprise. It was described as "Chinese Kris Dagger" and the seller posted only this both pictures and no measurements. Hope that it is not one of this small souvenir gunongs.

Regards,
Detlef

[Battara]

So far I would place this piece in the 1940s. The mounts could be white metal, or tarnished silver.

The pommel shape is not quite the earlier forms. I have seen these made going back to the 1950s. Earlier forms curve and are not bent straight.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Battara

So far I would place this piece in the 1940s. The mounts could be white metal, or tarnished silver.

The pommel shape is not quite the earlier forms. I have seen these made going back to the 1950s. Earlier forms curve and are not bent straight.

Thank you Jose for your educated opinion. This would explain the sharp luks and the good condition. But the workmanship look quite good. Do you think that to this time they were worked for locals or for tourists?

Regards,
Detlef

[Robert]

Hello Detlef,
I would not worry too much about this being a small piece made for tourist as most of the ones of this style I've seen are from 10/12 inches in length. As Jose has pointed out the hilt having the sudden bend and not a slow or flowing curve points to its being of later construction and I would agree with his estimate of age placing this most likely in the 1940's. I'm not sure the pointed luks being present on a gunong is an accurate way of dating them any longer as there is now some evidence that pointed luks on kris have been in use long before previously thought. That being said I would not think it would be too much of a stretch of the imagination to think that pointed luks might not also have been used on gunong blades from the same time period. Any way it goes I like this piece and am looking forward to its arrival.

Best,
Robert

[Sajen]

First, thank you Robert for you thoughts about the gunong, second for the good pictures I've received from you.

Here a few of this pictures. Robert and I am very unsure about the handle material, it's almost looks to my eyes like walrus ivory but I am very, very unsure. Any thoughts?

[Iain]

My entirely uneducated opinion also says walrus, or at least marine ivory.

[Ian]

Sajen:

In the close up of the handle the little black dots visible, especially towards the end of the hilt, look like Haversian canals in cross section. This suggests that the handle is made from bone rather than a form of ivory.

Walrus ivory is extremely rare in the Philippines and would, I think, be restricted to high end, expensive weapons. I have not seen a convincing example of walrus ivory on a moro weapon. However, I have seen what was said to be dugong ivory on the pommel of a datu quality kris.

Ian.

[MaharlikaTimawa]

Very nice blades, the patterns on one of them really give its uniqueness.

[David]

I'm with Ian. This looks like bone to me.

[Sajen]

Thank you all for comment!
You could be correct that it is bone. It was just a thought since the ones I have seen with bone pommels has had a top cap to cover the inner porosity.

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

It was just a thought since the ones I have seen with bone pommels has had a top cap to cover the inner porosity.

That's a good point Detlef. I hadn't considered that. Still, it does not look like any ivory i have ever seen and the porousness and black dots on the material does look a lot like bone.

[Battara]

Take it from a bone head, this is bone.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Battara

Take it from a bone head, this is bone.

Hi Jose,

think that you are correct.

Best regards,
Detlef

[blue lander]

Does anybody have any information on copper/brass bladed gunongs? I understand they were used for ritual purposes?

[Sajen]

Robert just send me this both pictures from the pommel head, seems indeed to be bone.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by blue lander

Does anybody have any information on copper/brass bladed gunongs? I understand they were used for ritual purposes?

Sorry, can't answer your question.

Regards,
Detlef

[Rick]

Nor can I; being the possessor of a brass wavy bladed dagger made in the style of the non Moro Philippine culture .
Some ideas were put forth .
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...s+blade+dagger

[kronckew]

brass or bronze? was it tested?

[Robert]

I have a few of the Luzon brass and copper bladed daggers, have been able to handle a few more besides and have as of yet seen one where the blade was of bronze. In answer to Blue Landers question on copper or brass bladed gunongs, I must say that I have only seen one example and it was at auction and unfortunately I was outbid on it. As far as the original intended purpose for these items I can only repeat what Rick, Jose, Kino and I have written in the link posted above.

Best,
Robert

[David]

I cannot remember the source, but i do seem to recall in discussions around keris the idea that a non-ferric blade could be used for magickal purposes, or rather, to get around protective magick on someone who supposedly could not be killed by iron.

[Rick]

^^
That was the impression I got from reading Toer's Buru Quartet .
Magick .

[blue lander]

Interesting, thank you for the link. Mine has nicks in the edge and the tip is sort of smashed in, as if it stabbed into something hard. So whatever its purpose, it seems to have been put to hard use. I have no idea if the blade is brass, bronze, copper or what. It's orange (with some verdegris) and non magnetic, that's all I know. The bolster is also non magnetic, but it's yellow.

Incidentally I asked a Philippino friend what he thought of it. He suspected the makers didn't have any steel handy so they melted down some copper cables.

[Sajen]

This early gunong will enter my collection soon.

[Robert]

Wonderful early gunong Detlef and with silver fittings to boot. My congratulations to you for such a great score and new addition to your collection. Can't wait to see it all cleaned up and the silver polished again.

Best,
Robert

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Robert

Wonderful early gunong Detlef and with silver fittings to boot. My congratulations to you for such a great score and new addition to your collection. Can't wait to see it all cleaned up and the silver polished again.

Best,
Robert

Thank you very much Robert. Would you agree that it is from around 1900 until 1920?

Regards,
Detlef

[Robert]

Hello Detlef,
I would date this from late 1800's to early 1900's. I could be wrong of course but with its size and style that would be my personal opinion on this piece.

Best,
Robert

[russel]

Congratulations Detlef. I made an offer on this one, but with the terrible state of the Australian dollar my offer had to be modest (too modest for the seller). I'm glad this good early example has entered your collection.

Russel

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Thank you very much Robert. Would you agree that it is from around 1900 until 1920?

Regards,
Detlef

I think that would be about right Detlef.

Ian.

[Sajen]

Robert and Ian, thank you both for confirming my age guess.

Russel, the Euro don't have a good state in the moment as well but the price was very good for a gunong like this.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Have just get another interesting example from ebay. The seller provided only two pictures and not much information. I am very unsure about the age of this example, handle (pommel) and ferrule is an early style but the blade shows sharp luks which is a sign of much later examples. I doubt that the fittings are from silver. Pommel seems to be from bone. All comments are welcome, special age guesses.

Here pictures of the gunong after it has received some maintenance. The fittings seems to be from (coin?) silver and are very well worked. I haven't etched the blade until now.
I think that this piece is post WWII. I am unsure if this is a very well worked early tourist example or worked for real use, what you think?