![]() |
![]() |
#91 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa.
Posts: 126
|
![]()
Fascinating reading! Ibrahiim, I also own a Martini-Henry, for which I load lathe-turned shells with 60-85 grains of black powder. I cast my own bullets with a specially made mold.
I saw a Martini-Henry for sale in a big souk when I visited the UAE in 2012. I also travelled to Dibba on that occasion, and unknowingly must have been quite near you in Oman. Regards Johan |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#92 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
![]() Quote:
And a very much guessed at charge .. ln arabia the barrels were cut back getting rid of a lot of unnecessary barrel and bayonet lug...lightening the weapon considerably with little loss in accuracy. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#93 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa.
Posts: 126
|
![]()
Salaams Ibrahiim. Very interesting. Having seen that Martini-Henry at the souk, and a brass cannon on a carriage I would dearly have loved to own, we travelled past Dibba down a long road toward a "Friday Market" just outside of Masafi. Unfortunately I was with family who did not share my edged weapon/firearms interests, so there was nobody I could share my enthusiasm with.
Regards Johan |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#94 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#95 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
![]()
I PLACED A Muscat MARTINI AT #17....
Interestingly I collected a lot of Maastricht Petrus Regout a few years ago...The famous Sphinx marked Dutch Pottery so popular in Oman from about 1880 to 1920 and earmarked in a special report by Omanisilver.com as the source of weapons smuggled to the Northwest frontier tribesmen fighting the British in that period. Thus I conclude ~ See http://omanisilver.com/contents/en-us/d645.html for a surprise disclosure about the famous Pottery known as Petrus Regout from Maastricht Holland which started flooding the Omani market in about 1880 for maybe 25 years... It carries the famous sphinx mark underneath.. of which there are several indicating a different year etc... Anyway these pottery bowls were more than likely used to cover the smuggling of one particular mark of Martini Henry made specially for the Muscat Market ...The Muscat Martini Henry made about 10 kilometres from Maastricht and sold into the Afghanistan market for the rebels fighting the British. These as well as weapons made up the Khyber !! were used in that campaign. Omani Silver.com at reference more or less viewing the delivery of weapons through Muscat as highly likely and we know the pottery went through there and was very popular in Oman at one Maria Theresa a piece. I have several dishes. Please read their excellent article. http://omanisilver.com/contents/en-us/d645.html Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#96 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#97 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 252
|
![]()
One of my lectures this month was Rudyard Kipling Wee Willie Winkle volume, and it also contained the short tale The man who could reign (from which a famous movie came). It spends some text explaining how the Khyber pass Martini Henrys were made and where.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#98 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario
Posts: 391
|
![]()
This Snider precedes MH but it has an interesting butt modification
https://www.icollector.com/SNIDER-EN...IDER_i33570078 |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#99 | |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,731
|
![]() Quote:
Thanks for posting......... Stu Last edited by kahnjar1; 29th June 2019 at 10:08 PM. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#100 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,623
|
![]()
That Snider is indeed an interesting gun. I have never seen a Snider with a Jazail style butt modification. My only guess is the owner was used to handling older Jazail style muzzle loaders in the past, and modified the stock to suite his personal taste. For sure an Afghan local modification. Very cool. Wish I had seen it first. LOL
Rick |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#101 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario
Posts: 391
|
![]()
Rick it may well be for sale by now , the buyer always purchases many firearms and is most likely a dealer. Downside it the price will be more.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#102 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
![]()
The Swinburn Henry
Reference .. A....http://antiquearms.org.nz/articles/swinburn-henry/ B....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swinburn%E2%80%93Henry I have to admit that my knowledge of Martini Henry variants was sketchy at best however I have now read such excellent write ups as at the references that I can now see where they fit … We have in Oman various marks of MH and the different types of ammunition. Local variations were changed to suit the more slight stature of the arab individual by sawing back the barrels making the system much lighter and disregarding the bayonet. Once the caliber had changed to 303 around 1890 it would inevitably mean the single shot weapon would be overtaken if someone could invent a magazine ...although trained riflemen could in fact deliver 20 plus rounds a minute just by hand feeding single rounds. I digress as the aim is to introduce the Swinburn Henry an almost exact lookalike ...with a few differences. Please view the excellent report at Reference A on this weapon.(with excellent artwork and photos) See also reference B wikepedia on the weapon..which states~ Quote"The Swinburn–Henry rifle was a breech-loading lever-actuated single-shot rifle that was used by British Commonwealth forces in the late 1870s as substitute for the Martini–Henry, which was at the time in short supply."Unquote. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 4th July 2019 at 01:06 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#103 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
![]()
The problem or one of them with the Swinburn Henry was the extractor device which relied on a sliding plate but was very prone to jamming. It did however have a unique half and full cocking device in about the same place as the MH Load indicator lever..but much longer and functioned well. This would be useful in preventing an accidental discharge of the round up the spout while on horseback..thus a good bit of kit on the cavalry carbine.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#104 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Limousin France
Posts: 19
|
![]()
May I recommend Neil Aspinshaw's seminal book on the Martini Henry which is about to be published (see www. martinihenry.org) which deals with the many stories and myths about the rifle and explains the actual effectiveness of the weapon and it's ammunition. The result of years of close study from primary sources.
Also one should note that most of the smuggled Martinis and bazaar sold ones around the Persian Gulf were Belgian made using the 577/450 ammunition but not identical to the actual service Martini Henry. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#105 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#106 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
![]()
Thanks for the detail about the book about to be released on the Martini Henry. This thread is composed from years of research …
ACTUALLY ABOUT 38 YEARS IN ALL FROM MAINLY MY OWN EXPERIENCE WITH THE WEAPON AND AS A DEALER IN THEM FROM AN ACTIVE ANTIQUES SHOP FOR AT LEAST 10 YEARS . THE POSTS TO INSPECT IN THIS REGARD AND ON THE WEAPON FAVOURED BY TRIBALS IN THIS REGION CAN BE SEEN AT #84...38 AND 5 (ONE IS A BOOK) AND WE ARE ALWAYS READY TO VIEW ANY PUBLICATION AS IT ARRISES. I AM SURE THE NEW BOOK WILL GET A GOOD AIRING ON THESE PAGES. ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#107 | |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,731
|
![]() Quote:
Perhaps Ibrahiim, who will have seen many "local" Martinis could advise if he has seen any Belgian proved Martinis. The fact that they were made in 577/450, was that this caliber was what was in common use at the time. Of course they were superceded by .303 when that caliber came into regular use. Stu |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#108 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
![]() Quote:
Please see #95 which outlines the amazing fact that Muscat marked MH were made in Maastrict and smuggled into the region under bales of pottery... The Famous Maastricht pottery commonly still found in Muscat. Heres the post below ~ I PLACED A Muscat MARTINI AT #17.... Interestingly I collected a lot of Maastricht Petrus Regout a few years ago...The famous Sphinx marked Dutch Pottery so popular in Oman from about 1880 to 1920 and earmarked in a special report by Omanisilver.com as the source of weapons smuggled to the Northwest frontier tribesmen fighting the British in that period. Thus I conclude ~ See http://omanisilver.com/contents/en-us/d645.html for a surprise disclosure about the famous Pottery known as Petrus Regout from Maastricht Holland which started flooding the Omani market in about 1880 for maybe 25 years... It carries the famous sphinx mark underneath.. of which there are several indicating a different year etc... Anyway these pottery bowls were more than likely used to cover the smuggling of one particular mark of Martini Henry made specially for the Muscat Market ...The Muscat Martini Henry made about 10 kilometres from Maastricht and sold into the Afghanistan market for the rebels fighting the British. These as well as weapons made up the Khyber !! were used in that campaign. Omani Silver.com at reference more or less viewing the delivery of weapons through Muscat as highly likely and we know the pottery went through there and was very popular in Oman at one Maria Theresa a piece. I have several dishes. Please read their excellent article. http://omanisilver.com/contents/en-us/d645.html Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#109 | |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,731
|
![]() Quote:
Interesting possible connection??? but can you verify that Martinis were in fact made in Holland? I do not doubt that arms were smuggled thru Muscat, but anyone could have stamped "Muscat Martini" on the breech. To me , if Muscat was an avenue for smuggling weapons, it would be rather foolish to stamp such a thing on any weapon as it would have directed the "powers that be" to the source and therefore to the confiscatuion of such weapons. With lack of any other evidence showing on the particular gun I would be sceptical as to a Maastricht origin. Dutch pottery or for that matter any other cargo COULD have been used to conceal weapons in transit. If you refer to my post above, I asked if you can verify the existance of Belgian proved Martinis from the many you have seen? Stu |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#110 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Limousin France
Posts: 19
|
![]()
Major General Syed Ali Hamid comments at https://www.thefridaytimes.com/gunru...crash-of-1910/ on the trade into the area generally.
Period reports of British origin make more references to Belgian Martinis. Belgium having a major arms industry making tens of thousands of Martinis annually. Many, if not most, Martinis today from Arabia are of Belgian make from my observations but others will be far more knowledgable on that matter. See also the Doctoral thesis of James Ficus on 'Gun Running in Arabia' https://pdxscholar.library.pdx.edu/c...en_access_etds |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#111 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
|
![]()
Sometimes people mismatch Holland and Belgium, or Belgium and France.
But actualy Belgium is a country... ![]() I think i got something for you, they were made in Liege. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30031969 Commissioned from Francotte by Westley Richards, to fulfill an order reputed to be for 36,000 rifles from the Zuid Afrikaansche Republiek. Less than one third of these were actually delivered. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#112 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
|
![]() Quote:
Is it possible that Maastricht stamps were only export proofs??? as it was a port to ship the guns and actualy the guns were made in Liege... |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#113 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,731
|
![]()
Thank you Kubur for the link. These as stated, are Francotte Martinis and not Martini Henry Rifles. The action is different from the Martini Henry as described in the attached link. https://www.ima-usa.com/products/ori...nt=26168425541
So it is likely that at least some of the rifles featured in this thread are in fact Francottes rather than Martini Henrys. Only by having a particular weapon to hand would correctly identify which it is........ Francotte's factory was located in Liege Belgium. Stu |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#114 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
![]() Quote:
Yes I agree .Please see #108. The Pottery was made 10 Kilometres down the road at Maastricht and the weapons at Liege. The weapons were smuggled Oman under cover of the crates of pottery.. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 28th August 2019 at 10:49 AM. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#115 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
![]() Quote:
Thanks for the fine detail at the references which are a must see for members here... https://www.thefridaytimes.com/gunr...-crash-of-1910/ 'Gun Running in Arabia' https://pdxscholar.library.pdx.edu/c...en_access_etds[/QUOTE] |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#116 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
|
![]()
I forgot to post mine...
I think it's something from Oman... ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#117 | |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,731
|
![]() Quote:
Stu |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#118 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
|
![]()
Hi Stu
yes i have some marks and would be grateful to know what they mean 43 A and on the barrel 604 |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#119 | |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,731
|
![]() Quote:
Stu |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#120 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|