Odd Sword

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The Majescule Letter A...Again !

[fernando]

Where did you get this one, Ibrahiim ?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

Where did you get this one, Ibrahiim ?

At what some people refer to as the Forum Resource but which I call Forum Library ...at one of the references in the post above which also gives a further interesting thread to consider at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...burg+majuscule where at #22 it; the majuscule A, is examined most precisely.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

To refocus for a moment on the project sword at #1 here is the script we are considering ...

[fernando]

I was conculting my books in order to establish some points referring to a large XIII century originated convent that exits in the town next to mine and, when i saw the illumination of the first page of the charter given to the convent by King Dom Manuel in 1516, i noticed this A with a funny top ... but with a sraight crossbar. It seems as we had part of this fashion over here .


.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

I was conculting my books in order to establish some points referring to a large XIII century originated convent that exits in the town next to mine and, when i saw the illumination of the first page of the charter given to the convent by King Dom Manuel in 1516, i noticed this A with a funny top ... but with a sraight crossbar. It seems as we had part of this fashion over here .


.

Certainly interesting since I believe we are looking at a Portuguese sword....despite the straight and not Vee shaped crossbar. The Majescule A form seems widespread.
At http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...0&page=2&pp=30 there is a dated and similar Majiscule A though again with a straight top...and straight bar at #31...with the 1519 date clearly shown and noted....and a slightly different date on the same A at #34.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Please see..

http://www.gustavianum.uu.se/digital...ord-blades.pdf

....where the paper shows the variety of potential combinations; for example a mixed Latin, Roman, Greek puzzle with some letters reversed or upturned. The combination is not only illogical but randomly done and could even be at the discretion of the owner or maker and be loaded therefor with the possibility of a mistake; deliberate or otherwise. It is perhaps for this reason that museums have put out a general distress call through the media in an attempt to crack the codes...which aren't codes at all...since they are not logical.

The codebreaker thus has a number of codebooks to run with including all of the usual alphabets ....runes ...religious books... and sayings of the day...somewhere around the 13th Century. In addition code may also mean Talismanic numerical progression so the ability to reckon on that peculiar mathematical expertise is vital.

It is important that ethnographic enthusiasts and researchers view how these shorthand devices stepped from the medieval period into the modern era on European blades. (but don't write in ...I know there are some on Eastern blades as well)...I should say mainly on European blades!

What I find amazing still is the habit or tradition many centuries ago of casting ones favourite sword into the deepest pool..a favoured way, perhaps, of returning ones sword to the underworld as was the famous mythical sword in the legendary Excalibur.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

On revisiting this problem. It seems this puzzle may be around for a very long time, hence, a brief look at https://linguisticator.com/a-medieva...d-inscription/ could be useful. Not only could the letters be a mixture of several languages but it could be read from the right or left...No one knows.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[Victrix]

The symbols on the blade don't look like West European letters of the alphabet to me at all. Neither does it look like Hebrew. Could it be Ge'ez? Most likely they are talismanic symbols meant to bring luck to the user and may not necessarily mean anything but are based in superstitious beliefs. The cross as part of the decorations suggests the blade is originally from a Christian country. I have seen hussar sabres with these talismanic symbols and haven't felt tempted to try to interpret them. Some of these sabres may have been made by gypsies and could even be marked with Roma symbols.

[Helleri]

I've found this site to be very useful in looking up and comparing systems of writing.

[Jim McDougall]

It is good to see this thread back, and the focus on possible identification of the sword blade. As with so many ethnographic situations blades such as this one, typically European, whether trade or otherwise acquired, are often remounted many times in their working lives. Apparently there were many caches of blades in Bedouin holdings which were eventually filtered into locations in Arabia where they were remounted into swords for various situations.

This blade, with its most curious lettered inscription, appears to be a 17th century European arming sword blade as we have discussed. The 'cross' is a device often termed the 'anchor' which is found at the end of the fuller or often inscribed panel at its termination. While this one seems quite rudimentary, these are often more complex with numerous cross bars.

As we have seen, it seems fruitless to try to determine the origin of these characters, which appear to be assembled from various sources and perhaps alphabets. In these times and earlier, it was quite common to have various mottos, phrases and invocations placed in acrostic form on blades. In Italy there are variations of these kinds of inscriptions which seem like entirely unintelligible gibberish. The same kinds of inscriptions occur in even earlier times on blades found in England with what are termed 'magical' inscriptions.

In many cases, often on Spanish blades, there are magical symbols interpolated with otherwise regular lettering, and we can surmise that such practice may have applied to these kinds of acrostics. Often they were disguised religious invocations or talismanic devices. In many cases these characters are of numerical rather than alphabetic value, and numbers in magic are assigned particular meanings and values. For example the numbers on many blades such as 1441; 1414 and others are often perceived as dates, but are actually magic combinations.

On the blades of East European swords as mentioned, there were such talismanic wordings often with curious symbols and devices, many of these known as the 'Transylvania knot', though not literally a tied cord or knot.
I have had swords with 'Hungarian' blades with such 'wording' which when I tried to have translated, were simply unintelligible groupings of letters.

With the hussar sabres noted, actually the 'Gypsies' were responsible for certain decoration of swords and they did metalwork particularly on scabbards and hilts, but they did not produce swords. In most research concerning symbols on these East European swords, and contact with Gypsy sources, none I found were having to do with their unique language nor symbolism. It was a good thought though as I felt at the time.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Victrix

The symbols on the blade don't look like West European letters of the alphabet to me at all. Neither does it look like Hebrew. Could it be Ge'ez? Most likely they are talismanic symbols meant to bring luck to the user and may not necessarily mean anything but are based in superstitious beliefs. The cross as part of the decorations suggests the blade is originally from a Christian country. I have seen hussar sabres with these talismanic symbols and haven't felt tempted to try to interpret them. Some of these sabres may have been made by gypsies and could even be marked with Roma symbols.

Salaams Victrix, Whilst to some it may seem obvious that a cross implies a religious context however on many ancient weapons fished from lakes and rivers across Europe the cross is the only obvious recognisable coded inscription amongst often a line of unrecognisable capitals described as feudal religious shorthand !!...(of no known origin). For a balanced view of this please see http://blog.world-mysteries.com/stra...usaders-sword/ and note how the author has done just as you suggest and has focussed on the cross format... This is usually the Jerusalam Cross with tee shaped ends. Where a pommel exists there may be an etched similar cross done after the shock of battle by the owner..And so the cross is something we can be safely confident about...the rest is as yet undiscovered however...Note that letters do not have to be from the same alphabet !! and they may be numbers.

On further reflection I note that the cross on the project sword is not actually the Jerusalem Cross but a variant ... The Forked Cross. It may illustrate a similar provenance and is anyway another of the heraldic crosses..

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim, we crossed posts!!! but spot on in reading yours!!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

To revise what we have ~ and welcome Jim on our crossing posts!!!

There appears to be two Majescule A forms one at each end of the line . Are the letters between the A's a date? It is tempting to suggest as I did at #88 earlier that the Majiscule A illustrates Augsberg.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Helleri

I've found this site to be very useful in looking up and comparing systems of writing.

Salaams Helleri, It gets complicated as we know that even alphabets were mixed up ...The entire blade script may be a code known only to the owner..and the meanings of scripts some of which may be local religious unknown entities may never be unraveled. The sword by the way carries an Oman hilt possibly refitted relatively recently and well after swords were used in battle. My suspicion is that the blade may be Portuguese although I am not certain.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Victrix, Whilst to some it may seem obvious that a cross implies a religious context however on many ancient weapons fished from lakes and rivers across Europe the cross is the only obvious recognisable coded inscription amongst often a line of unrecognisable capitals described as feudal religious shorthand !!...(of no known origin). For a balanced view of this please see http://blog.world-mysteries.com/stra...usaders-sword/ and note how the author has done just as you suggest and has focussed on the cross format... This is usually the Jerusalam Cross with tee shaped ends. Where a pommel exists there may be an etched similar cross done after the shock of battle by the owner..And so the cross is something we can be safely confident about...the rest is as yet undiscovered however...Note that letters do not have to be from the same alphabet !! and they may be numbers.

On further reflection I note that the cross on the project sword is not actually the Jerusalem Cross but a variant ... The Forked Cross. It may illustrate a similar provenance and is anyway another of the heraldic crosses..

Salaam Ibrahiim,

I love the links to documents you have posted on this thread concerning interpreting inscriptions on medieaval swords. It has been very interesting reading! Also I like the Arn movie which is mentioned in the last document. History is truly fascinating... The sword which you are investigating is clearly very different from the medieaval knight swords. If you are decoding something you obviously have to know what symbols you are dealing with, and this particular time period is tricky because of the popularity of occult superstitions (akin to Sufist mysticism?). That's why I wonder if it's worth the effort? Following your comments I did a quick search on the cross symbol and found this (see photo below) in Symbols: Encyclopedia of Western Signs and Ideograms by Carl G. Liungman. The symbols could even be linked to alchemy (!). Also, the Augsburg symbol you refer to is different to the symbol on the sword which has an asymmetric horizontal bar at the top (only on the left side).

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim thank you for the kind note!! and I agree in thanking you for the interesting material. That article you linked has been most helpful for some time now in the long standing quest in studying these blade markings and inscriptions. It is most encouraging to see others join in with looking into the history and fascinating esoterica often held in the secrets these elements hold.



Here I especially would like to note the references to the legendary sword Excalibur of the Arthurian romances, and its association with the 'Lady of the Lake'. Indeed this is reflective of certain conventions of the powerful mystique of swords in these times, and throughout history. The key element noted in this respect is that Excalibur did carry blade inscriptions, which seem to vary in versions of these tales. It is interesting to compare the fact that it was then deposited in the lake for future events of importance.
We do not know what actual inscriptions were emplaced, and these varied with authors. One notion suggested that the term 'cut steel' was used, much in the manner of the 'Eisenhauer' term used on German blades of the 19thc.

We turn to the much heralded 'River Witham' swords, two swords which were found in this English river in the mid 19th c. and both bear mysterious inscriptions labeled as 'magical' which still defy decryption .
These swords , while both with such inscriptions, are from periods centuries apart, suggesting that they were either deposited or lost in these close locations at different times. The question of course is compelling....could these swords, carrying deeply cryptic magical imbuement, have been deposited in this romantic knightly manner of Arthurian legend?

While our blade in discussion is obviously not a knightly sword, but an arming blade of probably 17th century, we must remember that these traditions, imbuements and commemorations were very much part and parcel of characteristic blade decoration and motif even then.

I would point out here that the very act of 'decoding' is first determining exactly what 'code' is being examined. The symbols, glyphs and devices of religious orientation, magical and various occult and talismanic forms, and linguistic characters including gemetria are often entwined as previously noted.
It must be remembered that these times, into much later, illiteracy was primarily the norm, of course with lack of formal education or any sort of informative media to the population at large. With this, superstition and religiously oriented fear prevailed. This accounts well for the importance of symbols and devices in many aspects, which also pertains to these kinds of blade decoration.
Alchemy in these times was not 'science' or 'chemistry', it was very much occultism and magic, so of course the symbols were shared.

Another factor which is firmly emplaced in the mysteries of blade inscriptions and markings which does not fall into the Christian invocations and knightly category are those involving cabalistic mysticism and symbols.
However, we have seen that in many cases, such sigils and glyphs may transcend into other contexts as many were shared or remarkably similar.

Yet another denominator in sword blade markings, are those using the elements of these categories in degree, and or, the acrostic methods described earlier, by various secret groups, orders or organizations.
I have seen other sword blades, and items such as helmets etc. with letter/ character groups in similar number (around 5) and again, these have been attempted to decipher with Latin words and phrases etc. to no avail.

It may be impossible to determine the explanation for this curious inscription, but as we continue to try, we learn, and that is what we're about

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Salaam Ibrahiim,

I love the links to documents you have posted on this thread concerning interpreting inscriptions on medieaval swords. It has been very interesting reading! Also I like the Arn movie which is mentioned in the last document. History is truly fascinating... The sword which you are investigating is clearly very different from the medieaval knight swords. If you are decoding something you obviously have to know what symbols you are dealing with, and this particular time period is tricky because of the popularity of occult superstitions (akin to Sufist mysticism?). That's why I wonder if it's worth the effort? Following your comments I did a quick search on the cross symbol and found this (see photo below) in Symbols: Encyclopedia of Western Signs and Ideograms by Carl G. Liungman. The symbols could even be linked to alchemy (!). Also, the Augsburg symbol you refer to is different to the symbol on the sword which has an asymmetric horizontal bar at the top (only on the left side).

Salaams Victrix, and thanks for the detail you include. I agree the Majescule in my post is not the right one to match the Augsberg...so I sideline that. On the idea of trying to discover the code I think that while you are probably right in that finding an answer may take forever I think giving it a go now and again is perhaps the best way to continue looking in on this important subject and hoping that some future student may indeed crack it...Having it on Library is part of the battle and your additional notes are a great help.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahiim thank you for the kind note!! and I agree in thanking you for the interesting material. That article you linked has been most helpful for some time now in the long standing quest in studying these blade markings and inscriptions. It is most encouraging to see others join in with looking into the history and fascinating esoterica often held in the secrets these elements hold.



Here I especially would like to note the references to the legendary sword Excalibur of the Arthurian romances, and its association with the 'Lady of the Lake'. Indeed this is reflective of certain conventions of the powerful mystique of swords in these times, and throughout history. The key element noted in this respect is that Excalibur did carry blade inscriptions, which seem to vary in versions of these tales. It is interesting to compare the fact that it was then deposited in the lake for future events of importance.
We do not know what actual inscriptions were emplaced, and these varied with authors. One notion suggested that the term 'cut steel' was used, much in the manner of the 'Eisenhauer' term used on German blades of the 19thc.

We turn to the much heralded 'River Witham' swords, two swords which were found in this English river in the mid 19th c. and both bear mysterious inscriptions labeled as 'magical' which still defy decryption .
These swords , while both with such inscriptions, are from periods centuries apart, suggesting that they were either deposited or lost in these close locations at different times. The question of course is compelling....could these swords, carrying deeply cryptic magical imbuement, have been deposited in this romantic knightly manner of Arthurian legend?

While our blade in discussion is obviously not a knightly sword, but an arming blade of probably 17th century, we must remember that these traditions, imbuements and commemorations were very much part and parcel of characteristic blade decoration and motif even then.

I would point out here that the very act of 'decoding' is first determining exactly what 'code' is being examined. The symbols, glyphs and devices of religious orientation, magical and various occult and talismanic forms, and linguistic characters including gemetria are often entwined as previously noted.
It must be remembered that these times, into much later, illiteracy was primarily the norm, of course with lack of formal education or any sort of informative media to the population at large. With this, superstition and religiously oriented fear prevailed. This accounts well for the importance of symbols and devices in many aspects, which also pertains to these kinds of blade decoration.
Alchemy in these times was not 'science' or 'chemistry', it was very much occultism and magic, so of course the symbols were shared.

Another factor which is firmly emplaced in the mysteries of blade inscriptions and markings which does not fall into the Christian invocations and knightly category are those involving cabalistic mysticism and symbols.
However, we have seen that in many cases, such sigils and glyphs may transcend into other contexts as many were shared or remarkably similar.

Yet another denominator in sword blade markings, are those using the elements of these categories in degree, and or, the acrostic methods described earlier, by various secret groups, orders or organizations.
I have seen other sword blades, and items such as helmets etc. with letter/ character groups in similar number (around 5) and again, these have been attempted to decipher with Latin words and phrases etc. to no avail.

It may be impossible to determine the explanation for this curious inscription, but as we continue to try, we learn, and that is what we're about

Salaams Jim, and thank you for your post which is most encouraging...I draw Forum attention to your last line Quote" It may be impossible to determine the explanation for this curious inscription, but as we continue to try, we learn, and that is what we're about."Unquote. Absolutely Jim and thanks again...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

...http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4369

Food for thought is abundant at the above link...It should be considered that the project sword (The Odd Sword) carries a much later Omani pommel.... blistered onto a much older blade. Indeed the actual hilt may be more like the above link. I therefor return to look at Portuguese examples...where available.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Victrix, and thanks for the detail you include. I agree the Majescule in my post is not the right one to match the Augsberg...so I sideline that. On the idea of trying to discover the code I think that while you are probably right in that finding an answer may take forever I think giving it a go now and again is perhaps the best way to continue looking in on this important subject and hoping that some future student may indeed crack it...Having it on Library is part of the battle and your additional notes are a great help.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaam Ibrahiim,

I can understand your curiosity with this blade. It has a certain lustre which made me wonder if it's not made from silver, and then the symbols which look like they came from a sorcerer. Maybe one day the riddle will reveal itself.

Al Ghouti

[Helleri]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Helleri, It gets complicated as we know that even alphabets were mixed up ...The entire blade script may be a code known only to the owner..and the meanings of scripts some of which may be local religious unknown entities may never be unraveled. The sword by the way carries an Oman hilt possibly refitted relatively recently and well after swords were used in battle. My suspicion is that the blade may be Portuguese although I am not certain.

It's still useful. I've used it several dozen times to identify characters I don't recognize. No one is going to be translating anything that is at all nuanced with it. But it's good place to start to get some ideas of what one is looking at when one has no ideas. Another good one is symbols.com (which has actually expanded to a lot more than just symbols now).