European blades in India

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by estcrh

If you have not already read this essay you should, it is from the book titled "Sultans of the South: Arts of India's Deccan Courts, 1323-1687" By Navina Najat Haidar, Marika Sardar, 2011.



"Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries: their manufacture and the influence of European imports" by Robert Elgood.

https://books.google.com/books?id=iW...page&q&f=false

Estcrh, many thanks! Very good article. The real research. I admit everything that was said there :-)

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Estcrh, many thanks! Very good article. The real research. I admit everything that was said there :-)

Yes, many interesting facts and quotes, how about this one.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by estcrh

If you have not already read this essay you should, it is from the book titled "Sultans of the South: Arts of India's Deccan Courts, 1323-1687" By Navina Najat Haidar, Marika Sardar, 2011.



"Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries: their manufacture and the influence of European imports" by Robert Elgood.

https://books.google.com/books?id=iW...page&q&f=false

Great link, great info. Thank you so much for sharing.

[ariel]

Estcrh:

Many thanks for the article. Finally, we have a well-researched review for our information and education. No more fantasies, reliances on "personal logic", poorly translated citations of citations and the rest of pseudo-scientific junk. This article neatly resolves all issues raised in this discussion.


I was unaware of this article and wish to express my gratitude to you.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

No more fantasies, reliances on "personal logic", poorly translated citations of citations and the rest of pseudo-scientific junk.

Dear Ariel
I totally agree with you. This was enough:

If I had to choose a sword for a battle, my absolute preference would be for a European one rather than Indian. Interestingly, the Indians thought the same: they mass -produced blades with fake European markings as a sign of the highest quality.

In contrast, industrial production of British swords was aimed at (and actually achieved) complete uniformity, solid quality and reliability

The questions have been answered to the satisfaction of every reasonable person and we are just repeating ourselves.

[Jim McDougall]

Well done Estcrh!!!

Those lines perfectly respond to the original theme here. The rest of the discussion neatly describes the variables surrounding it, but this is an excellent on topic resolution.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams estcrh and All, I have seldom seen such a brilliant report in a paper that uncovers the secrets of Indian sword production and the mirage of the European makers...and with a vast Bibliography in support. I need to read it again ...thus its place is now firmly in Forum Library...so it can be held up and viewed at will and hopefully referred to in the many debates on Indian weapons. This paper is an Ethnographic Gem.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ariel]

I also vote for the permanent placement of this article in the Forum Library.




Good initiative, Ibrahim!!!

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams estcrh and All, I have seldom seen such a brilliant report in a paper that uncovers the secrets of Indian sword production and the mirage of the European makers...and with a vast Bibliography in support. I need to read it again ...thus its place is now firmly in Forum Library...so it can be held up and viewed at will and hopefully referred to in the many debates on Indian weapons. This paper is an Ethnographic Gem.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim, agreed and a good idea!!!

[ariel]

I sent a formal request to Andrew to include this chapter in our common library.

I suspect ther will be no "nays" :-)

Everybody, have a great weekend!

[Helleri]

Wow...this really digs into it. What I like about it the most is it puts it in the context of free market competition. A lot of discussion on this tends to put forward the idea that every one at a certain time felt a certain way for a very specific reason. But these were people. They were just as dynamic in their thoughts and sentiments as us.

It reminds me of this one time at the flea when I sold someone a purse I made. They said what they really appreciate about it is that it's American made. And the only response I had for her was "yeah, but my tools are made in China". And we were both sort of like 'it can't be helped'. And we both just kind of smiled and shrugged. It is what it is....Point being I think that it's easy to put these peoples lives and culture into a narrative and forget that our situation with imports vs. domestic and how we might treat it or feel about it is nothing new.

But beyond the outlying thrust of this article. There are a lot of small interesting and helpful things in this article. Looks like we could get as lot of good terminology from this. for instance the possibility of referring to imported blades into India as "Jahaji". Much like we already refer to the ornate gilding on some pieces as "Koftgari".

I am sure this is going to be one of those reads where every time you go through it again you find another layer of value to it.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ariel

I sent a formal request to Andrew to include this chapter in our common library.

I suspect ther will be no "nays" :-)

Everybody, have a great weekend!

Ariel, you have PM.

[dralin23]

hi guys,( and girls..Tatyana)
here are one of my latest purchases. it is one of the swords form the wagner collection. an very beautifull katar sword with an phantastic solingen blade. it was an very old dream from me to own some time such an sword. the blade was marked at the one side with " in solingen" and at the other side with the name
" knegt" i asked in the solingen sword museum for more informations about these smith. they answerd me that these sword comes from an old solingen swordmakerfamily. one member of these familiy was Peter Knecht who worked in the middle of the 17th. ct. and the signature and the pattern form these sword show all features that it comes from these date and also maybe from these important smith.
for me it is unbelievable that these blades find in these time the way to india. it would be intrested to know how much was the price for such an blade in germany in these time and what was the value for the same blade in india.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Congratulations :-)
I am glad that you got it - and I am only a wee bit envious - but only a bit :-).

It is a great piece, and as katars are close to my heart, I do understand why you bought it :-).

Very good pictures btw.

Jens

[ariel]

Beautiful! Do not know how much you paid for it, but it is worth every penny.
Enjoy it!!!

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ariel

I sent a formal request to Andrew to include this chapter in our common library.

I suspect ther will be no "nays" :-)

Everybody, have a great weekend!

Chapter finally extracted from a large PDF book. As it contains vital information for sword collectors in general, it is already included in the European section 'Classics'. Ian will see that it will also be held in the Ethno 'Classics'.

A new thread for the purpose was started:


http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...808#post197808

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by estcrh

If you have not already read this essay you should, it is from the book titled Sultans of the South: Arts of India's Deccan Courts, 1323-1687 By Navina Najat Haidar, Marika Sardar, 2011.



"Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries: their manufacture and the influence of European imports" by Robert Elgood.

https://books.google.com/books?id=iW...page&q&f=false

I was lucky enough to see that exhibit when it was at the Met. I would highly recommend that book on a number of different levels above and beyond just the topic at hand here. I know museum books can be expensive years after the exhibit, and I have no idea about the availability of this one, but if you have any interest in Indian arms, especially South Indian, it will be a terrific reference.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by dralin23

hi guys,( and girls..Tatyana)
here are one of my latest purchases. it is one of the swords form the wagner collection. an very beautifull katar sword with an phantastic solingen blade. it was an very old dream from me to own some time such an sword. the blade was marked at the one side with " in solingen" and at the other side with the name
" knegt" i asked in the solingen sword museum for more informations about these smith. they answerd me that these sword comes from an old solingen swordmakerfamily. one member of these familiy was Peter Knecht who worked in the middle of the 17th. ct. and the signature and the pattern form these sword show all features that it comes from these date and also maybe from these important smith.
for me it is unbelievable that these blades find in these time the way to india. it would be intrested to know how much was the price for such an blade in germany in these time and what was the value for the same blade in india.

Dralin, this is one of the most enticing examples I have seen in some time of these Indian katar/swords with this example seeming to correspond to Deccani forms (naturally I would defer to Jens for more accurate details) .
It seems to be most unusual for these to be open with arm bands rather than with the gauntlet typical of pata.

I am most curious about the information from Solingen on the Knecht attribution to 17th century. All the resources I have (Gardner, Boeheim, Demmin, Kinman, Wallace Coll, Bezdek et al) indicate the earliest Knecht was c. 1770 in Solingen, and Wallace Coll. shows (p. 268) that the family were trading in swords rather than mfg them.
However, in my opinion the name stamp and accompanying marks including the anchor and others including IN SOLINGEN, look very much 17th century .
Therefore perhaps this blade is to an unrecorded (at least in the sources I note) example of this maker.

It is known that in the early 17th century the Indian market was profoundly inundated with European blades, with other Solingen examples such as the well known ANDREA FERARA represented at confirmed dates c. 1620s so this may be a most important blade, the magnificent example it is mounted in not withstanding!!

Very well done Dralin, congratulations, and thank you for a most valuable entry and sharing it here with us!

All best regards
Jim

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Dralin, this is one of the most enticing examples I have seen in some time of these Indian katar/swords with this example seeming to correspond to Deccani forms (naturally I would defer to Jens for more accurate details) .
It seems to be most unusual for these to be open with arm bands rather than with the gauntlet typical of pata.

Jim, I was wondering if the "arm bands" may have been added at a later date? The hilt as well could be older than the blade as in this type of katar existing blades could be easily removed and a new one inserted as the blade is just riveted in place. A very nice example though.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Jim, I was wondering of the "arm bands" may have been added at a later date? The hilt as well could be older than the blade as in this type of katar existing blades could be easily removed and a new one inserted as the blade is just riveted in place. A very nice example though.

Well observed !! and absolutely that may be the case, and I remain perplexed at this inscription .
Even looking at the Wallace Collection catalog, there are many very old hilts paired with later blades, lending to the idea of either heirloom hilts being refurbished with newer blades or any number of ersatz possibilities.

[estcrh]

How long is your katar?

[Jens Nordlunde]

I doubt that the hilt is older than the blade, to my opinion it is rather the opposite.
The 'arm bands' could very well be added later, and would have added a lot to the stability when the sword was used.

What would interest me to know is, if the seller told from where in India the sword came, and why he thinks so?

Jens

[fernando]

Originally Posted by dralin23

... it was an very old dream from me to own some time such an sword...

I have never dreamed of this rather spetacular example, but i wouldn't mind being awake while having it with me .

[Ian]

Thanks to Fernando, a PDF file of Robert Elgood's article that was mentioned earlier in this thread is now available via the Classics Thread at the top of the Ethnographic Arms and Armor Home Page. Click on Classics, scroll down to the bottom of the list, click on the link and you will find the PDF file in the first post.

Or just click here if you want to go to Fernando's post directly http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...808#post197808

Ian.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ian

Thanks to Fernando, a PDF file of Robert Elgood's article that was mentioned earlier in this thread is now available via the Classics Thread at the top of the Ethnographic Arms and Armor Home Page. Click on Classics, scroll down to the bottom of the list, click on the link and you will find the PDF file in the first post.

Or just click here if you want to go to Fernando's post directly http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...808#post197808

Ian.

Fernando, thank you very much for placement of this most valuable article and the cross references. It is great to see these kinds of details being situated in a research oriented system here, and know that these resources and our archived threads may be relied upon in future researches.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I doubt that the hilt is older than the blade, to my opinion it is rather the opposite.
The 'arm bands' could very well be added later, and would have added a lot to the stability when the sword was used.

What would interest me to know is, if the seller told from where in India the sword came, and why he thinks so?

Jens

Well noted Jens, and as you say, it makes good sense that if this katar hilt was to have a full length sword blade, then the arm bands would be essential. In the pata, these same kinds of bands are riveted at the top of the hilt to secure the forearm, while the hand holds the transverse grip.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I doubt that the hilt is older than the blade, to my opinion it is rather the opposite.

You would have a better idea about this than I do. I was just assuming that the hilt was not originally made for this blade which may have been added at a later date. As you say, the blade may actually be older than the hilt.

[dralin23]

hi there,
sorry tho the late raplay, but i was the last some days to busy to visit the threads in the forum.
yes, i think also that these armbands are an later aditional feature. these bands was made from silver and i think also that they should give the upperarm more stiffnes when these katar was used in the fight.
the length of these blade is 80cm , and the wide of the blade before the hilt is 34 mm.
i was also searching for more informations about the knecht family.
i found very different informations about the time of their working.
the name "knegt" is an older example of the name "Knecht" . the name "Knecht"
is more modern.
as i wrote, i was looking in the www. and also in the book from stafan Kinman about european makers of edged weapons and their marks. i found no one exampel from an blade with the name "Knegt".
i was asking directly in the "Solingen Swordmuseum" as i hope that i found something more informations about the maker from these blade there.
the answer was that these kind of solingen stamp with the anchor was made untill the 17.th.ct. and the name knegt is an indicate that it was made from one member of the knecht family.
i hope i will find sometime an other exampel with an identic mark.
i´m happy about it!! it is now one of my hairloms in the collection.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by dralin23

hi there,
sorry tho the late raplay, but i was the last some days to busy to visit the threads in the forum.
yes, i think also that these armbands are an later aditional feature. these bands was made from silver and i think also that they should give the upperarm more stiffnes when these katar was used in the fight.
the length of these blade is 80cm , and the wide of the blade before the hilt is 34 mm.
i was also searching for more informations about the knecht family.
i found very different informations about the time of their working.
the name "knegt" is an older example of the name "Knecht" . the name "Knecht"
is more modern.
as i wrote, i was looking in the www. and also in the book from stafan Kinman about european makers of edged weapons and their marks. i found no one exampel from an blade with the name "Knegt".
i was asking directly in the "Solingen Swordmuseum" as i hope that i found something more informations about the maker from these blade there.
the answer was that these kind of solingen stamp with the anchor was made untill the 17.th.ct. and the name knegt is an indicate that it was made from one member of the knecht family.
i hope i will find sometime an other exampel with an identic mark.
i´m happy about it!! it is now one of my hairloms in the collection.

As indicated in my earlier post, the spelling of Knegt is in my view the more archaic form of the name which became much better known as the family of purveyors of swords much later.
The style of lettering, the anchor and other accompanying marks suggest this is indeed a very old blade, and which was joined with this katar hilt with the arm bands added as noted to add support.

It is good to see the Kinman reference being noted, as this is one of the most useful references to come into the literature on blade markings for many years. I was pretty sure if the KNEGT was not listed there it would not be among all the other now long venerated sources, which cross checked proved true.

This sword certainly would seem to me to be a Deccani example, as this katar style most closely resembles those forms, and this weapon would have been used in sweeping, slashing type attacks, thus the bracing of the arm bands.

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I doubt that the hilt is older than the blade, to my opinion it is rather the opposite.
The 'arm bands' could very well be added later, and would have added a lot to the stability when the sword was used.

What would interest me to know is, if the seller told from where in India the sword came, and why he thinks so?

Jens

Having looked at various designs of Katar hilts I think that this hilt may well be a 17th C one and that the forearm support bands rather than being an add on are a replacement for the original bands which would have been of a finer quality than the ones shown fitted now. Just a thought.
Miguel