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#61 |
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Not relevant.
Last edited by Norman McCormick; 7th October 2023 at 12:46 PM. |
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#62 |
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Not relevant.
Last edited by Norman McCormick; 7th October 2023 at 12:47 PM. |
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#63 |
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Not relevant.
Last edited by Norman McCormick; 7th October 2023 at 12:47 PM. |
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#64 |
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Ah yes .The German Fektbok illuatrations.
These publications were aimed at the aristocratic members of the various fight schools as can be seen by the portrayal of men dressed in the latest fashions of the day. The participants shown are not the peasant members of European society... I therefor ruled them out of the equation early on since this is not how Scythes were used in war. Imagine an opponent with a spear or sword opposing... The whole idea behind war scythes was that they were available and cheap to use and training took a few minutes. The War Scythes were designed for the masses. It was a spearing jabbing slashing chopping weapon... No one in their right mind would go into a battle armed with the scythe shown in this way nor would they be dressed like princes at court... The blades were taken off and refitted reforged/ and reinforced where required and fitted for their new role as Pole arms. New straight longer wooden poles were required... thus this agricultural tool went to war. |
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#65 |
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From Origins of a New Regiment by Allan Mallinson Page 5. I Quote" It was all over in less than 10 minutes; Colonel Gardiner (CO of The 13th Dragoons) was killed trying to rally his and other troops; A highlander cut him down from his horse with a Scythe fastened to a pole and as he fell another highlander delivered a mortal blow to the head with a battle axe".Unquote.
Regards Peter Hudson. |
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#66 |
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for interest see https://www.geriwalton.com/legendary...y-joseph-bara/
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#67 |
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This is a magnificent painting of a most tragic event, and these polearms of course appear to be actual scythes in the field tool category being used as weapons. The use of field implements as weapons as is, rather than the ploughshares, files etc. repurposed into edged weapons, was actually of course commonplace through time. In this painting, the weapons held resemble more the bardische (in first attachment the Austrian type). These varied widely, but like the scythe, were likely field implements as required. While not typically noted in military accounts, the rather menial task of foraging to feed animals likely had weapons like these used in such context.
In early armies, the masses of forces were typically huge numbers of peasantry who served more as 'cannon fodder' in the huge fields of battle. Naturally, these men used whatever tools or implements they had as arms and armor were expensive and typically owned and used by well heeled individuals and those of standing or station. Many of these implements became various forms of polearm from the bills, and various types of field implements which became the basis for these types of arms. What comes to mind is that the familiar 'sickle' marks (dual dentated arcs) which are well known on sword blades, originally associated with Genoa but later widely copied, may well have represented blade makers, who made tools as well as weapons. This may have been the source of the colloquially used term for them. With the sickle, which apparantly were hafted as well as pole mounted, these were of course effective weapons typically, with use pole mounted more viable for the fighter on foot to reach mounted men attacking. The well known Lochaber axe of Scotland (last image) is of course pole mounted in the manner of the scythe, and equipped with a hook, to catch and pull the rider down. Another form of such weapon in Scotland was the Jedwart stave, in 16th c. but soon lost favor as it was too light to be effective in this manner. Returning to the use of the sickle, it seems edged weapons of these forms have ancient representation as well, even the khopesh of Egypt seems a form of sickle type weapon (these well discussed and illustrated by Peter in the text here, just wanted to reiterate here). In more modern times in Africa, the sickle swords of the Azande in Zaire (along with their throwing knives) as well as the Abyssinian shotel are said to have been used in the same type of 'hooking' manner to pull a shield away from a warrior to open him for spear thrust. (image with blue backing Azande; the other the shotel). Pragmatically, it is widely held that most sickle type edged weapons were used in this manner in degree, however as deadly cutting weapons the effect would be obvious. With most rank and file often not military, but farmers and field workers, they needed no training in the use of these arms. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 26th October 2023 at 08:19 PM. |
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#68 |
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#69 | |
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On the topic of Artwork showing the demise of the Commanding Officer of The English 13th Regiment it has been difficult to view the Artistic impressions available but the Account in the book by Allan Mallinson appears to be precise ...and in that two weapons in particular had been key to bringing down the CO from his horse...The Scythe ...and then his death by a second highlander using an axe probably the famous Jedburgh Axe ... Certainly the picture I have now found below has in it a very clear image of what can only be A Scythe and typically refitted on a long pole was how the commander, Colonel Gardiner of The 13th was knocked off his horse. Interestingly the Artist has placed a highlander right behind the Scytheman carrying one of those axes. The Painting is from https://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/y...g&action=click Regards, Peter Hudson. Last edited by Peter Hudson; 26th October 2023 at 10:27 PM. |
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#70 |
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Are AG's arguments relevant to the subject?
Scythes as 'weapons of war' is the subject; and a fascinating one at that. It appears to me that the soldiers are waiting on the blacksmiths for blades to be attached to their poles... it is an exceptional image in many ways. It matters-not what is on the anvil, and any spurious speculation to that end is very much beside the point (no pun intended). Of course the rural Chinese peasants were masters at developing very effective fighting styles using domestic materials and farming implements. Please excuse my late appearance. |
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#71 | |
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Regards Peter Hudson |
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#72 |
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Members are recommended to reduce the size of each quotation to the part of the texts they wish to emphasize !
- Last edited by fernando; 27th October 2023 at 12:04 PM. Reason: Missing word |
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#73 | |
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Last edited by Interested Party; 28th October 2023 at 03:55 PM. Reason: spelling |
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#74 |
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"and it is always a pleasure to attract a response these days... "
I ran across some images a while back of forward curving swords in "Diderot's L'Encyclopedie, Art de L'escrime " that I thought i would share. Two have a forward curving blade complete with a cross section (non-scythelike) in the second plate. The third has some sheathed blades with guards that could indicate a forward curve, but more likely an artistic error. Secondly, I have attached some pictures of a modern North American scythe to help clarify the issue on tangs. I do not know if Europe used this same system. To me the tang looks easily adaptable with only a few heats to a pole arm. The tang could be lengthened with a scarp weld and reinforced with a long sleave to add strength and some defense against being cut. This combination was used in some early middle age spears to my understanding. |
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#75 |
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Dear Interested Party,
Thank you for posting the accurate research illustrating sketches of Scythe blades ...and the other curved shaped blades from Fourbisseur references etc. The tangs on the Scythes are accurate and I believe you are correct in writing that the straightening out process would be simple and fast; converting this agricultural tool to a rudimentary but effective pole arm. This is great support and is good to see from Forum. Regards, Peter Hudson. |
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#76 |
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The Scythe as a weapon clearly illustrated by the Artist.. Józef Chełmoński.
Regards, Peter Hudson. Last edited by Peter Hudson; 29th October 2023 at 01:26 PM. |
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#77 |
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In the late 1600s it is written that included in the weapons were converted farming tools as weapons which were noted amongst others as SCYTHES.
1548: On this day, an inventory was taken of all the munitions and ordnance of war held within Newcastle. These give us a fascinating insight into the machinery of sixteenth-century warfare, as well as Newcastle's often surprising provisions for conflict. Most of the foot soldiers were equipped with black bills (a hooked blade on a 5-6 feet long stick) or bows -there were 2,ooo of each! Others had pikes (4oo), and demilances (250) with smaller numbers of staves. Also held in the city were weapons made by converting farming equipment - hedging bills, scythes, sickles and axes. Last edited by Peter Hudson; 9th November 2023 at 06:56 PM. |
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#78 |
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Just a minor late addition. In the interesting book Lotharingia by Simon Winder, he mentions in the chapter titled New Management at Hawk Castle that:
" In 1386 it was the turn Leopold III, Duke of Austria, who brought with him a specialised detachment of scythe troops to destroy the harvests as they headed south from Brugg. The Swiss killed him, together with a rich selection of local noblemen and most of his troops (including presumably the ones awkwardly carring only grass-cutting equipment) at the battle of Sempach." Unfortunately he does not give a linked reference as to the source of this information. DrD |
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#79 |
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On the web the battle of Sempach brings up this detail along with various artworks. Indeed the people carrying mowers were crop cutters and of no use in the battle. Interesting story Thanks.
Peter Hudson. |
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