31st August 2009, 12:54 PM | #61 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
|
I'd love to write more...
I'd love to write more but time is away on me.
Attached is a label attached to a quiver of arrows I passed by a week or two ago. Gav |
31st August 2009, 05:21 PM | #62 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,247
|
Quote:
|
|
1st September 2009, 02:48 AM | #63 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
Quote:
Hey, I don't mind if we from Asia came from over there, via that Bering land bridge which is now Bering Strait. I should probably mention that to the immigration officer the next time I visit the US. I'd like to find out what kind of conversation that will trigger Joking aside, the study of languages is indeed heaven-sent with regard to tracing the migration paths of peoples, and as regards finding out who is really related to whom. With the rise of high-speed computing in the 1970s, linguists were able to easily categorize gazillions of words, thereby providing additional leads in areas where archeology runs out of steam. The Philippines' own language tree is below (from one of WH Scott's books). For instance, it is one of the evidences being cited to prove that the dominant Taosugs of the Sulu sultanate actually came from the other side of Mindanao (the Agusan-Surigao area). Now what I'm really interested in is a Phil. language tree with the time dimension, just like what was done (below) for the English language tree. PS - Thanks for the reply-comments on the other points as well. Last edited by migueldiaz; 1st September 2009 at 03:01 AM. Reason: added a 'PS' |
|
1st September 2009, 03:26 AM | #64 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 88
|
Fearn,
Rather try to hear an Indian song, maybe you should listen for one meant for you; maybe it is out there. Mozart was on to something, and I wouldn't completely rule out those sheep speaking English, but in order to hear them, maybe to get on the right mental/spiritual level requires a lot of prayer and fasting. And listening to the birds sing, even if you don't understand their language is never a bad thing, but I'm sure you already know that. Migualdiaz, Just tell the immigration guys you're Navajo. I've had Navajo friends be mistaken for Asian by Asians. To try to bring this back to the weapon angle, I've seen ceremonial uses of wooden knives and real gun in dances, but those weren't by my tribe, so I probably should leave it at that. |
1st September 2009, 03:30 AM | #65 | ||
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
Quote:
Quote:
Seriously, I agree with your hunch that that was a case of biased reporting. In the 333 years that Spain controlled substantial portions of what is now Philippines (i.e., given that the Igorots, the Moros, the Lumad, and other lowland and upland "infieles" were not really subdued), Spain never made money (the government was always on a deficit). The US had the same experience. And so naturally, the on-site bureaucrats' "press release" to the mother country would always be biased lest they (the administrators) be seen in a negative light. When the Filipino national hero José Rizal reconstructed prehispanic Philippines' history for instance, he did not rely on the Spanish friars' accounts. And that's precisely because their accounts were always citing extraordinary events. In the case of the friars, they were recounting always magical and supernatural occurrences among the activities of the natives. While Rizal for sure (and most Filipinos) would not absolutely rule out such phenomenon, I think Rizal saw that the friars' stories have simply too much of those stories. Now the locals' accounts of the overall history will also be biased for sure, to be fair. Thus for me that's the challenge for the historian -- how to meld two half-truths and come out with a more objective account. Last edited by migueldiaz; 1st September 2009 at 06:57 AM. Reason: Refined the wording ... |
||
1st September 2009, 04:05 AM | #66 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,247
|
Quote:
I already speak more animal languages than human ones. It's fun. F |
|
1st September 2009, 10:39 AM | #67 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
Quote:
As for a warrior getting berserk via the botanical route, I think most of us know that certain Viking warriors 'popularized' this. And the very word itself (berserk) is derived from Old Norse of the same meaning. Here's a quote from Wikipedia: HistoryIt's a long read but I thought it was interesting. |
|
1st September 2009, 02:23 PM | #68 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,247
|
Hi Migueldiaz,
I thought they'd actually tested these two theories on the BBC (berserkers: drunk or on magic mushrooms). They did it by having a volunteer whack at targets with period weapons sober and under the influence. Their conclusion was that the alcohol (and especially the hallucinogenic mushroom) significantly degraded the subject's performance. I'm not saying that people didn't go into battle drug, on meth, or similar. Still, I think it's possible to go berserk without drugs, and probably most of the berserks did. One thing from the sagas I've read is that the berserkers were always potentially violent, and that was part of the problem with dealing with them. Psychotic rage might be a better explanation. Best, F |
1st September 2009, 05:59 PM | #69 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: between work and sleep
Posts: 731
|
Thanks migueldiaz... my how far have we gotten from shit-knife?
At least we're still borderline still on topic with the drugs! There are a lot of disgruntled youth, people with terrible upbringings, and psychopaths. Give them a sanctioned outlet with hysteria-inducing rituals, intoxicants available, and war... and they will flock together for that. While strong and disciplined glory/booty-seeking Viking warriors with spears, axes, swords, and shield, backed up by bowmen were the back-bone.. the bersarkers were probably more of a psychological effect on the enemy. Imagine an enemy who is obviously crazy, swinging at you with 100% the entire time, not slowing down, shot with two arrows already and still coming... that is somewhat inhuman and scary. It's possible that they used drugs, but like fearn said I think it's more likely that many were psychopaths to begin with. However, do any of you know of the corvo? It is a curved knife from Chile, and was famously used in the War of the Pacific by Chilean soldiers. They would be given Chupilca del diablo (a mix of black gunpowder with aguardiente) that made the men crazy and violent. May not have been quite as effective as machine guns and rifles, but the sight of crazed men lobbing off your friends' heads with curved knives must be shocking. Parallels can be found all over the place. |
1st September 2009, 08:56 PM | #70 |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,940
|
Still interesting stuff guys, some of it gettin' kinda weird, but as we get into topics like pyschological effects in battle, and here and there the essence of weaponry as applied, the degree of pertinance stubbornly holds.
The use of psychological warfare absolutely cannot be discounted, and combat and associated trauma can only be realized as monumental and surreal. One of the best books I have found that addresses this phenomenon is "The Face of Battle" by the late John Keegan. He presents interesting perspective on this subject, but even his descriptions must be thought of as relatively civilized compared to warfare in earlier times, when mankind had only nominal contact with the concept of civilization. I absolutely agree with Fearn, that the use of induced rage or intense combativeness with the use of certain drugs via botanicals is in many cases less likely, and that often temporal instigation could bring an individual to points of frenzy and near hysteria. There have been many investigations into these kinds of mind sets on various works, one book that I can think of is "The Mind in the Cave" discussing early man and shamanic activity using things such as chanting, drum rhythms and mental focus that could bring on trances and surreal intensity. Musical psychologica is well known in combat, and loud chanting, beating of shields and shouting, and variations of noise was often, if not typically employed to dissuade or disconcert the enemy before contact. In Scotland,besides the well known discarding of clothing and screaming charges of Celts, many berserks and then the Scots, was notably terrifying. The bagpipe, though not indiginous to Scotland, became a well known device to stir the combativeness of thier forces, as well as to frighten the enemy. Indeed, these instruments were ultimately proscribed after the last rebellion as they were classed as a weapon! The berserks, and I think warriors of these associated regions and times, were not necessarily inherently psychotic, but more attuned to violence and a certain disassociation with consequences of terrible carnage. This, along with vehement beliefs in supernatural dogma, enabled them to use self focused anxiety, induced rage and adrenalin into a frenzied state that exceeded the imaginations of the average person in trying to understand. It has been documented that even in the aftermath of intense cavalry engagements, survivors were often seen sitting upright in thier saddles, staring emptily in a daze, with tears streaming down thier cheeks, not from sadness or fear, but from release of the power of inimaginable adrenalin and rage. In many cases recorded, probably many times over unknown, combatants were not even aware of terrible wounds they had received, and were literally still fighting when they should have been either down or even dead. In the Sudan, the mistermed 'dervish' warriors would tightly wrap themselves with material to sustain them even beyond potentially fatal wounds from gunfire, so they would be able to carry further into point of contact, despite numerous bullets in them. While this effort certainly might have given them some potential endurance, it was more likely the religiously charged drive that projected them so intensely. Thier faith would certainly have precluded any use of any sort of intoxication to produce this effect. The psychological effect of the appearance of many weapons is well established, and this has been discussed many times over the years here, however,the psychological state of the warrior himself however, has not. He, as a virtual living weapon, is essentially the topic here, and as such, the discussion serves well. All best regards, Jim |
1st September 2009, 09:11 PM | #71 | |||
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: between work and sleep
Posts: 731
|
Quote:
Quote:
They say there is such a thing as a "10 second rule"... and even if mortally wounded, he can probably still kill you in that 10 seconds when he is enraged and pumping pull of adrenaline. Quote:
|
|||
2nd September 2009, 03:29 AM | #72 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 88
|
At the risk of throwing another wrinkle in this discussion, maybe in addition to ethnography we might want to add gender? We've got the Amazon priestess of the Philippines, and one of the versions of the origins of the balisong knife is that it is a woman's weapon, or one that women frequently used. Given that women's daily chores in many traditional cultures would be very blade dependent, maybe the focus on berserkers might obscure lots of other knives, improvised and otherwise used by women. In a lot of American Indian tribes knives were literally part of a woman's everyday dress, and they weren't just for chores. They were also carried for defense.
And how about knives made of river cane? They were extremely common in the SE USA. I've tried to make them and have never been successful. Does anyone have any information on how it was done? |
2nd September 2009, 12:09 PM | #73 | ||||
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
Quote:
And I just checked out the pics of Navajos and they even look some of the uncles and aunts And I of course enjoyed watching the Navajo "windtalkers" in that Nicholas Cage movie. Quote:
Quote:
This is not of course to abuse the kindness and liberality of the mods in allowing some bit of freewheeling discussion Quote:
I read your post several times, in fact. And John Keegan's The Face of Battle is also one of my favorite books by the way! |
||||
2nd September 2009, 09:34 PM | #74 |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,940
|
Thank you so much for those very kind words Migueldiaz!!! That means a lot. Actually I enjoyed writing on the topic and it helped me realize the importance of what is being discussed here.
The late Professor Keegan was one of the most brilliant writers I have read, and his ability to present true dimension in his work can only be described as magnificent, for lack of better words. All the best, Jim |
3rd September 2009, 02:08 PM | #75 | ||
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
Quote:
Quote:
Give a determined Tausug Moro a toothbrush for his weapon and I'm sure he can still do a lot of damage -- and I don't mean to be facetious in saying that. As we often hear, the battle is first fought in the mind. And generals supposedly look into the eyes of their troops on the eve of the battle, to predict whether they will win the battle or not. So maybe this is where the conditioning of the mind (whether self-induced or via botanicals) comes in. What I mean is that having realized the paramount importance of the mindset, a leader or a warrior strives to reach a certain psychological state, if he is to withstand the rigors and influence the outcome of something important he's about to do (e.g., going into battle). And the mind is a pretty powerful instrument as we all know. What I excerpted below is somewhat related, as the police officers' account amply illustrates how our brain acts as a weapon in concert with a physical weapon, in extraordinary circumstances. The account was taken from the bestselling book Blink by Malcolm Gladwell, which in turn quoted Into the Kill Zone, by David Klinger, a University of Missouri criminologist -- Well over 90% of police go over their careers without firing a gun. For those 10% who get to shoot it out, their experience turns out to be quite intense, as follows.Hence, it now appears that "bullet time" in the Matrix movie series has a basis after all. A Formula One race car driver also supposedly experiences the same time dilation phenomenon. PS - I just remembered this ... In a Godfather movie (can't recall if it was Part 1 or 2), an assassin successfully killed an enemy boss by employing a good game plan and using the latter's own eyeglasses as weapon. I rest my case |
||
3rd September 2009, 02:31 PM | #76 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
Some more info re extreme mental stress experienced by warriors during battle, taken from this Cannae battle article, using works by Marshall and Keegan for reference --
The warriors' deep dark secrets -- '[D]uring combat the soldier may become so gripped by fear that most of his thought is directed toward escape. But if he serving among men whom he has known for a long period or whose judgment of him counts for any reason, he still will strive to hide his terror from them ... The majority are unwilling to take extraordinary risks and do not aspire to a hero's role, but they are equally unwilling that they should be considered the least worthy among those present [SLA Marshall, 1947, p. 149]'They need more peyote and/or ayahuasca! |
3rd September 2009, 04:42 PM | #77 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,247
|
Hi Migueldiaz,
I'm not sure that any hallucinogens such as ayahuasca or peyote are ever used in battle, mostly because the normal side effects (projectile vomiting and defecation) along with the visions, make it really hard for anyone to fight under the influence of either of these drugs. Peyote and ayahuasca are also generally taken in a strongly spiritual context, not on the battlefield. In regard to peyote and warfare, the only question I'm interested in is whether the Native American Church has an active program to reintegrate returning soldiers back into their civilian communities, and whether peyote plays a part in that program. Many native people have rituals and such to help people "come down" from fighting and re-enter their communities. The one I know about is the Navajo "Enemy Way," but I'm sure there are others. It's something the US Army is finally learning to do, and given the harm caused by untreated PTSD, I think it's a good thing. The drugs I know that have been used in combat include alcohol (to lower inhibitions, it also lowers judgement and accuracy, as we all know), meth, cocaine, and heroin, and that's mostly from vietnam and current third-world conflicts. The fact that some warlords use these drugs on child soldiers is (to me) horrifying. Obviously, we're getting off the general topic of ethnographic weapons here, unless someone's going to bring out one of those Japanese opium pipe/clubs. Still, many of the weapons we collect were made for war, and this is part of their environment. I think this thread is setting some sort of record for marginal yet unkillable topicality. What's next? Best, F Last edited by fearn; 4th September 2009 at 12:37 AM. Reason: too many stills |
3rd September 2009, 09:41 PM | #78 |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,940
|
Very well stated Fearn and Miguel! I am very much inclined to agree that spiritual psychotropics such as peyote would not have been used in battle, nor indeed any hallucinogenics as the detrimental effects in reduction of awareness would have likely been fatal. As noted, Viet Nam did see varying degrees of drug use, mostly used in 'down' time in disassociation, however sometimes in combat situations, and unfortunately we can never know how much loss of life may have occurred in these tragic circumstances, perhaps as a result.
While the field of esoteric and philosophical topics is agreeably expanded to the farthest boundaries of connection to weaponry, again, we are considering man himself as a weapon and better understanding this can help in the little discussed topic of the psychological applications to weapons themselves. It is a good thing to know that at last the military is beginning to understand the tremendously debilitatiing effects that can cause soldiers terrible difficulty in reassimilating into civilian life. I have seen these very effects and there is little can can be said to accurately describe these often very deep psychological wounds, which defy recognition outwardly, thus elude attempts in trying to heal them. All best regards, Jim |
4th September 2009, 12:18 AM | #79 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
Fearn, Jim, thanks for expanding and deepening the discussion further!
Given the hypothesis that a man's primary weapon is his mental faculty, then it should follow that during combat his brain will experience the greatest wear-and-tear. Whereas a weapon can be dispensed with after it gets badly beaten up, unfortunately the soldier and everybody else is stuck with his own brain. The good news is that military institutions and the general public are now beginning to realize how important it is for them to be sensitive and supportive of PTSD cases. Like in the UK, we read that finally, hundreds of WW1 soldiers shot for 'cowardice' are to be pardoned. That was an old article, so by this time they may have already been all pardoned. And we can also recall that famous incident wherein Patton hit a soldier who apparently was suffering from PTSD ... |
4th September 2009, 12:32 AM | #80 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
Quote:
Our mother said that during her teen years (1950s), it was pretty ordinary for women (in the Philippines) to carry in their purse a sewing needle or pin, as an improvised 'weapon'. The situation being prepared for is this -- in public gatherings or queues in a theater for instance, an occasional pervert (or horny teen) makes use of the tightly packed crowd as an excuse to 'accidentally' touch or bump maidens. And so that pin or needle comes in handy, both as a deterrent and as an actual ethnographic weapon if needed. They must have read about the porcupine when they were young! |
|
4th September 2009, 06:52 AM | #81 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,247
|
Porcupine, or stingray?
F |
7th September 2009, 03:07 AM | #82 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
Quote:
On the idea of the brain as the main weapon, I've just finished leafing through a Tausug-English Dictionary (1994, Summer Institute of Linguistics) -- UTUK: noun. brain UTAK: noun. bolo UTUD: verb. cut off a part of something In the Tagalog (Luzon) dialect, 'utak' means brain. So I was thinking, maybe it's not all coincidence -- perhaps the Tausugs' forefathers of long long time ago (like other cultures elsewhere) had realized that the mind is the first and foremost weapon ... PS - I'll be opening another thread, on Tausug terms for blades, combat, etc. There's one term there for a particular never-heard-before sword (at least to me) that defies present classification. Maybe with everybody's 'utuk' and 'utak' collaborating, we can figure out that mystery blade. |
|
|
|