keris and spirit

[HanaChu69]

Hi Mans & Newsteel

Thank you for the useful advice. I will always bear in mind to keep the faith for I trust my instinct. For your info, I have more than three patrems but not all are being shown in my keris album. I guess I will have to find out the missing piece to my version of jigsaw puzzle.

Regards,
HanaChu69

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by HanaChu69

Hi Usman & fellow keris collectors

Sometime early this year, my mom mentioned that she saw the back of an old man wearing all white “jubah” (gown) loitering around my hall corridor during midnight.

A week later, I was on my way to work and surprisingly saw the old man earlier mentioned by my mom. I was shocked because he smelt so strongly of my keris oil which I bought from Adni (MAG).
Truthfully,
HanaChu69

Hana,

Not only you but also your mom had the same experience.

Several times people told me spiritual experiences related with keris. I believed some stories and doubted any other ones. In your case, I believe it. Why? Because two person without any appointement have seen similiar image.

Perhaps, you can use three different oils for your each different patrem. Then, let you feel what happens after. I do hope, sooner or later, you will be able to distinguish your patrems.

I will share experience to you.
Long time ago, I watched late Empu Djeno on local TV interview. He said about his spiritual experiences during his career as Empu. One of stories was he saw a big snake in his studio just before making special keris.

Months later, I went to his home to ask about the special keris he mentioned in the interview. He said that that special keris was used as family pusaka (never ever for sale).

Just month ago, late Empu Djeno's nephew, young Keris smith Sungkowo, delivered my commissioned kerises (actually, I commissioned to Empu DJeno 2 or 3 years ago). Before delivering those kerises, I requested to Empu Sungkowo to bring that special keris when he delivered kerises to my home. He stayed a night in my home sweet home.

One day later. Three people who coincidentlly coming in my home had a unique experience. Two of them saw a snake whilst one of them didnt. Unbelievable to them why one amongst them could not see it. All of them did not know what happened in my home one day before.

Till now, I still try to get the meaning from the story I have told you already.

Usman

[HanaChu69]

Hi Usman,

I was thinking if it’s true that these “Khadam” (spiritual being) will appear to those selected ones only. What a co-incidence that two of your guests saw the snake exception for the third. It was almost similar to that of mine i.e. my mom and I. Lucky no.2 I guess?? I hope the others who have stories to share could shed some light to this theory.

The above experience has caught me by surprise. Imagine, it was around 10am and I was deep in thought when it happened. I was thinking of outstanding to do list and walking towards my destination (This is my usual habit in the morning). Suddenly I smell the familiar keris oil that triggered me to turn my head to have a quick glance to find its source. I saw the back white hair of an old man in white standing next to a pillar. Nothing extraordinary registered through my mind so I keep on walking. At estmated 10 meters away, I seek out the old man this time out of curiosity because he was not one of those usual familiar faces. He had his side profile facing me but slowly turned to face me directly showing his true physical form (black sunglasses and white “jubah”). He must have felt that I was staring so hard at him. My guess was he was more than 80 years old which I derived due to shrinkage in bone density, unusually very fair and pale exactly like a walking corpse. I quickly looked away for I don’t make a habit staring at men in general. Within seconds, my memory snapped for I remembered my mom’s description of the old man the week before. I turned around in search of the old man again but he simply vanished. I really regret my action for I should have talk to him or kept him within sight. It could be because I was in a stage of shock as in “unbelievable”…

Oh..Thank you for your kind suggestion. In fact, I have the initial idea of concocting different scents for all my patrems but it is still in progress.

Btw, is it possible for you to elaborate on the snake part? How did it appear? Could it be guardian of your new commissioned kerises or from the special keris that Empu Sungkowo brought along with him? I pray and hope that you will find the answers to the meaning of your story too…Best of luck!!

HanaChu69

[David]

Hana, i think you will be seeing your old gentleman again. I seems you have unfinished business.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by HanaChu69

Hi Usman,

Btw, is it possible for you to elaborate on the snake part? How did it appear? Could it be guardian of your new commissioned kerises or from the special keris that Empu Sungkowo brought along with him? I pray and hope that you will find the answers to the meaning of your story too…Best of luck!!

HanaChu69

Hana,

Seemingly, I cannot elaborate it at this moment. Because, now, I am in Africa and the actual appearence was in Indonesia. I just got info when I phoned my parents. It is hard to analyse if just getting information through telephone.
Anyway, thank you for praying and hoping that I will find the meaning of it.

Okay... I agree with David.... about your unfinished business".

Usman

[HanaChu69]

Hi David & Usman

Please enlighten me with your comments on “unfinished business”…If you asked me I will say it will be my contingency plans. What shall be my next step? I guess it will be a long and tedious process.

Actually, I have consulted two pioneer keris experts. One wouldn’t want to give me any comments. The other gave me the same comment like Newsteel and that it is “my rezeki” (good luck). Well…I sure hope so…

While waiting for more eagerly waited stories, can we proceed and continue with the “tayuh” and “nayuh”. I’m sure it will be very interesting discussion if there’s more participation from the other members as well.

Truly,
Hana

P.S – I hold great respect for our fellow members who are not well-versed in the English language but they make an effort to participate in our “warung kopi”. No worries, I’m fine as long as I can grasp the concept and the correct understanding. Keep up the good work!!

[David]

Originally Posted by HanaChu69

Please enlighten me with your comments on “unfinished business”…

I say this because just his mere appearance is meaningless. It seems to me that more communication is necessary to find out why he is appearing to you and your mother. You said it yourself, you should have talked to him. If the message he is trying to communicate isn't clear then the business is obvoiusly "unfinished". Hopefully you will get another chance to find out what this is all about.

[PenangsangII]

Hana,

Pls be careful when dealing the genie khadam. If the keris is your rightful pusaka, then I believe "he" was trying to communicate with you, then you'll have to undergo certain ritual to communicate with him.

OTOH, if the keris was acquired thru purchase, pls check with the seller (whom I believe is very knowledgable in the physical & spiritual aspects of the keris) before initiating any communication with the khadam.

Remember, the more lives the keris had taken previously, the stronger khadam would be, and there's possibility that "he" is evil. So, again, please be careful!!

[HanaChu69]

Greetings everyone

David - I have to disagree that “his mere appearance is meaningless”. Some of them would want acknowledgement that they do exist and living around you. As usual these “khadam” will not speak to us and communication with them comes in form of dreams or through a medium.

PenangsangII – Appreciate your concern and thank you. I have no special ritual as my method to scan my kerises individually by means of prayers (hajat & istiharah). I do not seek help from a medium which I find against my principle. That’s why I say it will be tedious process. The answer will not be immediate and will take some time. At least there’s some guidance for further actions.

Regards,
HanaChu69

P.S - Your name sound familiar and are you Penangsang from Kgnt?

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by HanaChu69

Hi David & Usman

.... please enlighten me with your comments on “unfinished business”…
While waiting for more eagerly waited stories, can we proceed and continue with the “tayuh” and “nayuh”. I’m sure it will be very interesting discussion if there’s more participation from the other members as well.

Truly,
Hana

P.S – ... fellow members who are not well-versed in the English language ....

dear Hana,

emm... my english is not well-versed. but, hopefully, you can grasp the idea and, please, correct and revise my written statement then send through individual message. At the end of the day, I do want to master in English.

about "unfinished business", instead of enlightening you, I want to discuss with you since I dont have any means to enlight other.

Keris has always odd curves. Theoritically or "pakem"ly or normally, there is no keris with even curves. According to my sources, the reason why a keris must have odd curves is because the empu make a keris for a special purpose (there is no keris for general purpose to solve all kind of problem). It means whenever there is a keris, there should be an unfinished business. Whenever the problem has been fixed, It is even then a keris will go somewhere else by thousand causes. There is a keris, there is a mission. The mission must be good both in process and result.

Now, you have patrems (small kerises). You and your mother faced unique appearances. I dont know about "khadam"... then I will not use term of "khadam" in my elaboration. Whenever you fill in a dvd in its player and switch on the television then you watch so many appearance on TV, nothing wonder you. It should be normal too, if you watch, feel or hear "a thing" whenever you occupy a "real" keris. Perhaps, the appearance from keris makes wonder because there in no standard process or scientific explanation yet on how it works.

By facing appearence, there will be 2 possibilities. Fisrt, there is a problem before and the appearance is just like a reminder. Second, there is no problem before and the appearance creates new motivation. Both situation will be end on "unfinished business".

Now, instead of to communicate with your keris, it is more important to communicate with yourself first. In which part of yourlife that you feel "unfinished" or in which part of your live you will create a new mission.... after you have a vision. Only after you finish to communicate to yourself, up to you if you want to continue to communicate with your keris in a way you have already believed. One by one and step by step in doing with a keris.

Usman

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Hana,

I spent 4 months in S'pore in 1996. At that time, I lived in Kent Ridge Hall, Lower Kent Ridge Road (near Clementi) and studied at 4th semester (a semester) in NUS. Lovely S'pore.

Usman

[David]

Yes Hana, perhaps "meaningless" was too strong a word, but as Usman suggests, the appearance is not an end or a solution and perhaps signifies further action to be taken on your part.

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Usman, you have told us several times that your understanding of keris is minimal. Perhaps it is, perhaps it is not. I don't know. But your understanding of the way in which communication with the unseen world functions is clear.The answer to hanachu's questions are within himself:- he must first understand himself and then his answer will present itself.How to go into our own soul? Different things work for different people. Possibly the right teacher or guide might help.

[PenangsangII]

Hanachu, yes, I'm the same penangsang .

I have to agree with Alan, a teacher's guidance is very necessary.

According to traditional belief, a mere appearance is a sign that "he" needs feeding.....

[David]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

According to traditional belief, a mere appearance is a sign that "he" needs feeding.....

This is an interesting observation, but Hana made the connection to the old man with his keris because with his appearance came the strong scent of keris oil so it would seem that Hana is probably dilligent in the feeding of his keris.

[PenangsangII]

From what I was told, that keris was bought from Adni of MAG. I happen to own 2 kerises bought from Adni and I can tell for certain that the kerises still smell with "one kind of smell" i.e. keris oil eventhough after I cleaned them up using lime and sometimes wd40. Thru discussion in another forum, I was told that some oil residue is actually sticking on the inner part of the sarungs. I dont have to scent my keris with the special oil, and still my kerises have the scent.

Another thing to consider is that from my limited knowkedge in keris caretaking according to the traditional method, the khadam feed on incense / benzoine smoke, which I believe Hana would not use (due to her belief) thus the appearance on 2 separate occassions. Maybe there's another way of feeding that is not against her belief that other forumites can suggest?

[David]

Yes, i have also bought a number of keris from Adni and he does, indeed, use a most pleasant keris oil on them. I have also bought the oil from him.
Penangsang, you seem to have more intimate dtails of Hana's situation so i will wait for Hana to add more information. Personally i both smoke and oil my keris and have always considered both acts to be a form of "feeding" the keris and it's spirit. I am not as aware of Hana's personal beliefs as you seem to be so i can not persume to suggest any alternative feeding methods.

[HanaChu69]

Hello everyone

It’s welcoming to hear views on this topic. I have to correct some on my gender as I’m a lady keris collector. It’s fine for I’m use to it already…no big deal.

Usman – I’m sure you will master the English Language some day. As for the dvd, I will email you to double confirm on my understanding. I have to agree that the appearance of the “khadam” is an indication that there was a problem before and the second was like a reminder. I will work on the “unfinished business” and hopefully solve them soon. Can I know where did you get your resources? How do you address the “khadam” in your native tongue? Btw, thanks for the compliment on my country and I hope you will visit us again some day.

David – It’s fine and I’m working on the “unfinished business” thus working out on further actions. Btw, I don’t smoke the kerises but diligently oil them as preventive measure against rust. As for Penangsang intimate detail on my situation, I would say that we both share similar ancestral profile – his on paternal and mine on maternal. As such, he understands my principles and beliefs as to why I omitted certain rituals.

Pak Alan – With your many years of experience in Javanese culture, is possible for you to elaborate on “he must first understand himself and then his answer will present itself.How to go into our own soul?”.

Penangsang – Welcome as we are both new to this forum. Btw, how do you derive the appearance as a sign that he needs feeding? It’s good to get the right teacher to guide but it seem that they kept a lot to themselves without wanting to share. Furthermore, there might even be conflict of interest on my part so I rather stick to my method.

Truthfully,
HanaChu69

[PenangsangII]

Greetings,

Hana, the possibility that the spirit is hungry is also "unfinished business" that literally means you have not fed him accordingly and periodically. I think you also understand when somebody come into contact with his/her dead ancestors thru dreams, it's sign that the ancestors are "hungry", hence special prayers (tahlil) is conducted by the immediate family members. I believe that treating the "the hungry khadam" also works in this principle though the way / ritual is different.

However, since you have indicated that you know about your "unfinished business" after some soul searching, my "hungry khadam" analogy is no longer relevant .

Regarding the silent teacher/s, perhaps you should learn how to approach them without making it so obvious that you need to ask something. These teachers are analyzing you before teaching you anything as heavy as spiritual being subject for obvious reasons....

Mr Sepokal....if you are reading this, pls help.

[HanaChu69]

Greetings everyone,

I have decided to confine my findings via email and PM. Spiritual world is indeed very sacred and I do respect some who prefer being anonymous.

Usman – Do revert on my email. Thanks once again for the clarification on the mission and “unfinished business”.

Pak Alan – Thank you very much for the sound advice via PM. I really appreciate it.

Penangsang – I understand your concern for I’m aware that dealing with “pusako” is less risky than the unknown keris spirit. I’m at a disposition having two contrasting “pusako” with different customs and rituals. Btw, Mr. Sepokal has offered his help in establishing my paternal “pusako” but not keris related. I am in contact with him and will approach him should I require further help. For the meanwhile, I will take my time in communicating with all my kerises.

Oh..can we proceed with topics on “tayuh’ and “nayuh’ please….

Sincerely,
HanaChu69

P.S – Apologized to Mans, Usman and the others who chatted halfway and get cut off. There’s seemed to be some problem with my laptop & network connection...

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by HanaChu69

Oh..can we proceed with topics on “tayuh’ and “nayuh’ please….

Sincerely,
HanaChu69
[/I]

Hana,

if I am not mistaken...em...after reading old threads I have a conclusion that a lot of waroeng kopi attendances have very deep understanding of keris.... more than expected before. It means that "tayuh" or "nayuh" is nothing new amongst our colleagues.

I don't have any ability to "nayuh" and, perhaps, just have a little bit information about "tayuh". Based on that little information of "tayuh", it is wise to learn scientific and "pakem"ic (tangguh, sepuh, pamor, and so on) aspects of keris before learning about "tayuh" and doing "nayuh".

Why? I dont know exactly the answer. Perhaps, you must ask to our colleagues either here or by personal message.

Usman

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

Hana,

I don't have any ability to "nayuh" and, perhaps, just have a little bit information about "tayuh". Based on that little information of "tayuh", it is wise to learn scientific and "pakem"ic (tangguh, sepuh, pamor, and so on) aspects of keris before learning about "tayuh" and doing "nayuh".

Usman

Hana,

to continue about "nayuh" and "tayuh" (Hana, I do really wanna know these words in english, so please translate it)

one of the greatest challenges in "nayuh" is to differentiate between the imagination and the "real message". to strengthen the ability for differentiating it, imho, it is important to have wide knowledge of keris. Pakem Keris is learnt by mind. "Nayuh" is done by heart/soul. Let mind as a good guardian of heart/soul. Without strong and capable guardian, heart/soul can be trapped nowhere but "fantasy". it is very dangerous, actually.

may I explore by an analogy:

firstly, if I have a thick book: written in the cover "ensiklopedi keris by bambang harsrinuksmo", there are pictures: keris 13 curves outside its sheath. lets imagine all of metioned above just like "tangguh/period, pamor, ricikan/detail, dhapur/model[?]" in a certain keris. these information will be used as a compass.

secondly, I would like to know inside that book. If it is real book, it is very easy, just open it then read. But lets imagine the book is a keris. To know inside, one of the ways, is by doing "nayuh". when in nayuh, I meet with robert langdon and sophie neveu, for the sake of my goodness, I must stop it immediately. Why? instead of getting "real message", I am creating "a fantasy based on dan brown's novel: da vinci code". if in the cover written "ensiklopedi keris", the book (the keris) should explain about keris (its spiritual aspects) inside.

thridly, even in "nayuh" I get images or explanations about keris, I must still need to test and retest it. sometimes, well-planned/well-organized fantasy happens.

em...thats all for now, I must take a bath and go to workplace.

Usman

[David]

Usman, you continue to show keen insights on this subject and i find your Da Vinci Code analogy to be quite good.
I do not believe you will find any single word in English that properly discribes nayuh or tayuh so it is probably best to work more on finding a good definition for these words and then continue to these words in the context of our conversation.
I do understand why some may be hesitant to discuss these subjects here on the forum, however i would still like to encourage it. The subject will be taken seriously here and you should have no fear of ridicule. This is also not the type of subject that can be held up to scientific measurement and i will insist that all peoples beliefs be treated with respect and understanding.

[HanaChu69]

“Hana, Calling Usman..Come in Usman”…sorry, I’m very busy lah..

Usman, I shall input my generic understanding on the definition of “menayuh” and “tayuh”. “Menayuh keris” is the procedure in communicating with the keris if that particular keris is fit for the owner. It can be done through dreams or a keris expert. “Tayuh” is to ask what is the mission of the respective keris, who is the “Empu” etc. It can be done only by a person who is expert in this field.

Please do correct me for I may have the wrong perception.

[PenangsangII]

Indeed, "menayuh" is very interesting subject but a lot of people from the keris culture would normally avoid discussing it in the open for fear of ridicule by "scientologist" or bashing by the so-called "islamist.

I used to be engaged in a fiery discussion in another forum and was insulted badly by a few forumites when putting across the traditional way of treating the keris in my collection, and the way I communicated with the keris (in this case, the guardian of the keris). From then on, I swear to myself to never again discuss keris in the spiritual context.

So Hana, please be prepared as the non traditionalists will bash you up to the maximum if you are not careful when discussing this subject. Some of them are perhaps what the other forumites termed as "ghost readers" and would definitely jump in when the situation warrants.

penangsangII

p.s. you can offer a special prayers to the person/ancestor whom you have inherited the pusaka from, then place the keris under your pillow before going to sleep.

[David]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

So Hana, please be prepared as the non traditionalists will bash you up to the maximum if you are not careful when discussing this subject. Some of them are perhaps what the other forumites termed as "ghost readers" and would definitely jump in when the situation warrants.[/I]

Not on this forum they won't! "Ghost readers" may considered themselves warned! Any "bashing" of anyone's personal spiritual convictions will not be tolerated here and will be very swiftly dealt with!
Now please, let us continue the dialog...
BTW Penangsang, i think perhaps you meant to say "scientists" instead of "scientologists". Though i do sometime wonder what Tom Cruise and John Travolta might think about all this.

[PenangsangII]

Thanks David, that makes me feel a lot safer.

Yes, I guess you are right, my bad choice of word - it should scientist, though not scientist per se. I just don't know the right word. Anyway, if you happen to meet John & Tom, please send my regards, and of course my apology

Sometimes I cannot understand those folks who claimed that they were also collecting keris. Being a traditional weapon that keris is, I believe, it should be treated in a traditional manner although I dont have the slightest apprehension to those who treated keris in a more modern way.

I hope the more knowledgable members can contribute on this "nayuh" subject as I believe I still have a long way to go before reaching Alan, Pak Ganja, Pangeran Datu, Raden Usman's standard and the list goes on.

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Indeed, "menayuh" is very interesting subject but a lot of people from the keris culture would normally avoid discussing it in the open for fear of ridicule by "scientologist" or bashing by the so-called "islamist.

Dear experts,

One thing when talking about the 'inside' of a keris, we must avoid being anachronistic, by, for example, speaking of khadam in keris made by mPu before the spread of Islam in Jawa. Khadam is a concept from islamic tradition and is much younger than keris culture. According to islamic traditions, khadam -jinn slaves- can reside in anything the owner puts them in. From Aladien's lamp to a bottle.

If one studies some of the available mantras used by mPus it seems that the original idea is that the magickal power of the keris is the result of 1) The mPu's concentration and 2) the materials used in the keris.

In the case of the materials, iron and steel were in Jawa untill recently, prized metals (Lombard's theory that keris are small because the iron and steel was scarce) and the belief was that within the metals, there is sakti.

Offerings to sakti objects also change through time. In Dutch times, often an offering would require opium. Now you can only get fake opium (you can't get a high from it) in traditional flower sellers in Solo / Yogya, and the sakti / spirits don't use it anymore. Alcohol was also a popular offering to sakti / spirits, and after 'Tanam Paksa' (Cultuurstelsel?) Western plantation products like coffee and tea and tobacco also became popular with the spirits.

My conclusion is that spirits / sakti, if they are to be offered anything at all, should be considered as guests or friends (if they are friendly) and offered whatever you have at hand. There are the traditional incenses and perfumes and flower compositions that are common, like kembang telon, kembang setaman, macan kerah and so on which are artistic and interesting to look at and interesting to think about, but a friendly spirit should not be offended if offered what ever the host has even be it a Dunkin donat. But if an islamic culture khadam resides in a Hindu / animist blade, his/her presence might overshadow or change the type of sakti originally in the blade through the metal composition and the mPu's meditation. Better sing 'Singgah, singgah kala singgah pan suminggah durga kala sumingkir ...."

Warm salaams to all,
Bram.

[lelang69]

Originally Posted by David

Again, i don't mean to discount the metaphysical, but i also think it is very important to look at all the possible natural phenomenon possibilities first.

keris.. keris siapa mau beli keris 50% diskon abis nggak pakai perewangan ( keris keris for sale and discount 50% without Methaphysical power). What's a pity keris in southeast asia. is it an aeng tong tong Touris keris or real keris ?

I agree with david we should be look at the natural phenomenon possibility . But David , I suggest you should be put the natural aspects in number 100 after Methaphysical power in the first place when you are talking about keris with Indonesia or it's neigbouring country. if you don't you must be KUALAT SANTET (methapysical illness).

for Indonesian and it's neigbouring country, a millions Rupiahs ($ 100.000)keris will turn to be 50 tousands rupiahs keris ($ 40s) when they completly do not own methaphysical power.

we should aware as keris lover , keris Empus provide methaphysical, phylosophy aspect in every keris they create
and the Aeng tong tong Keris Smith provide the beauty and mass commodity for the tourist.

This is the reality condition in the world of keris lover In Indonesia and it's neigbouring country,

isn't it Pak Raden usman, pak ganjawulung Leres nggeh!, cik alam Syah bersetuju kah!

[PenangsangII]

Lelang69,

I beg to differ WRT your statement that fake spiritually imbued power keris is so widely spread in Southeast Asia, especially in other countries than Indonesia. I am not what the keris market is in Indonesia, but I can tell you for certain, here in Malaysia the situation is very different.

Sure, the blank keris (wedding & tourist craps) are on sale in the open, but most collectors (and pesilat) are aware of what the vendors are selling....crap.

Keris making activities in Malaysia are not as thriving compare to Indonesia (based on info you provided, it's quite big), though I am not sure how this "industry" is like in indonesia. In Malaysia, the keris making activities are dying simply because the pandai keris do not mass produce their craft, and still retain the traditional way of keris forging. If I were to order a standard keris from a smith, it would take him at least 3 - 4 months to complete. And with the mahar of around MYR 700 - 1000 (about USD 200 - 300) per piece, I wonder how he can support his livelihood. That is why, keris making is dying here.

Most collectors therefore would prefer to source their collection from the antique shops, other collectors, internet etc. for older kerises that still maintain its khadam in them