Movies and Edged Weapons Pt. 2 - Page 3

nechesh · 17th May 2005, 11:39 PM

Well, everyone's a critic. aren't they?

Really though, when i read a history book i expect accurate history, when i go to the movies i hope for good cinema. This movie has some brillant cinematography, fairly good acting and sticks to a general outline of history that in many ways is fairly accurate. No, Balian and Sybilla do not run off together in real history, but where's your sense of romance , man!

In fact, she pretty much conspired with Guy all the way through the true history, convincing her brother Baldwin IV to step down and allow her son by a previous marriage to become Baldwin V with Guy as his Regent. Others conspired for the throne as well, including her half-sister whose name escapes me. So many characters and a king are left out. The character of Raynald is fairly accurate and AFAIK he was indeed executed as he was in that scene where he drinks from the goblet. It is also my understanding that Balian WAS instrumental in negotiating the surrender and safe passage for those in Jerusalem (though he was no bastard blacksmith and apparently was always aware of his nobility). But the bottom line is that real history is just too complex to put down in a 2 1/2 hr. film in any cohesive manner that has any kind of dramatic flow and sense. No, this is not history, it's Hollywood. But more than that, it is also a film that has taken an age old sensless struggle for control of the holy land and created a message for OUR time that is both moving and perhaps even essential to our survival in the decade to come. As the film points out, this stuggle has raged off and on for a millineum. Isn't time it came to an end? That's a message i can tolerate a little fudged and finaggled history over. Especially when it looks so visually appealling.

And Rick, ditto on the Duelist.

Aqtai · 18th May 2005, 05:48 PM

Since this thread is about edged weapons in films, I think I had better stick in here some pics of Islamic swords. The first is (Allegedly) the Sword of Negm-ed-Din Ayyub, the father of Sultan El-Malik En-Nasser Salah-ed-Din Yusuf (i.e. Saladin). If it is we have a 12th century Islamic sword of the type which the 'Saracens' in Kingdom of Heaven should have been using. The second sword is 13th-14th century but very Similar to Ayyub's sword.

M.carter · 18th May 2005, 07:52 PM

Yes! thats the one. Thats the sword I was talking about. Saladin's father's Sword. The Syrian mamluk sword you posted is what probably most of the Ayyubid troops carried. There three others in the book too. I do not understand why on the earth these swords in the the Askeri museum, along with several arab sabk jambiyas are listed as "Turkish"

Aqtai · 18th May 2005, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.carter

Yes! thats the one. Thats the sword I was talking about. Saladin's father's Sword. The Syrian mamluk sword you posted is what probably most of the Ayyubid troops carried. There three others in the book too. I do not understand why on the earth these swords in the the Askeri museum, along with several arab sabk jambiyas are listed as "Turkish"

I have no idea why they are listed as Turkish, but i suppose it is because the book does mention that they are 'unusual' and their hilts are very different to other Mamluk sword hilts. But it is equally possible that 13th-14th century Mamluk swords had a different style of hilt to 15th-16th century swords.

What puzzles me a bit is why Negm-ed-Din Ayyub's sword should look like a 14th century sword. I suppose one reason could be that styles of weapons and armour changed more slowly in the Islamic world. early 16th century Kilijs and Kulah Khuds look very similar to early 19th century examples for instance.

Unfortunately I have never seen the original sword and the inscription in the photo is illegible, but another possible explanation also springs to my mind. The penultimate Ayyubid sultan of Egypt was also called Negm-ed-Din Ayyub. He reigned from from 1240 to 1249 and died during the battle of Mansurah. I can't help but wonder if this sword belonged to the second Negm-ed-Din Ayyub. A more prosaic explanation could just be that the sword did belong to the 1st Negm-ed-Din, but was given a new hilt around 1300 AD.

On the subject of Edged weapons in the movies, here is a Islamic Axe from KoH:

And here is a late 15th century Mamluk axe:

Full credit to Ridley Scott for such an accurate replica of a real Islamic axe, its just a pity he got the time wrong by about 3 centuries...

M.carter · 19th May 2005, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aqtai

david Nicolle was bit confusing. he mentioned at one point that Balian was captured and at another that he managed to escape near the end of the battle, without ever mentioning that there were two versions. I need the rest of my books!

Nicolle did say that Balian was absolved of his oath to Salaheddin by the Patriarch of Jerusalem. Although, to be fair to Scott, he did portray the patriarch as a treacherous b*st*rd.

Going back to the subject of weapons and armour for a bit, I've just remembered that the film showed some knights wearing closed helms (The scene when they try to kill Balian at his estate). I was wondering, considering that this film takes place around the year 1187, what is the earliest that great helms show up in European art?

Im not quoting about David Nicolle's book, I dont even own that

. Im talking about articles Ive read on the internet and in some old magazines I got my hands on. I read both versions of the story repeatedly.

Rivkin · 31st May 2005, 11:30 PM

Here are two (unfortunately somewhat overly nationalistic in message) video clips with lots of weaponry (supposedly georgian weapons)
http://www.hangebi.com/hangebi/kviclo.zip
and
http://www.hangebi.com/hangebi/rivergeo.zip

I had a lot of fun watching them.

Bill · 4th June 2005, 11:40 PM

a couple for those that are interested in Indonesia/Philippines. 1. Ring of Fire, an Indonesian Odyssey; www.mysticfire.com - You can buy all 5 films on a 2 dvd set, Nechesh will enjoy this if he hasn't already seen it. About the Blair brothers adventures through the Islands in the 70's, excellent. 2. Imelda, Power. Myth. Illusion. by Ramona S. Diaz. best documentry I have ever seen. Certainly not pro Imelda, but if you love her or hate her, you will enjoy this on many levels, & I do mean many levels. Only a born & raised Filipino can start to understand the PI, but this will give you a glimpse of some of the complexities, + it goes in & out of bizarro world. has a 90 second clip of the assassination attempt with a bolo, that almost killed her.

nechesh · 5th June 2005, 04:24 AM

Thanks Bill, I have seen some of this series, but not all of the films. Thanks for the reminder, i must add it to my Kerismas list.

M.carter · 25th June 2005, 02:20 PM

Hi,

I would like to revive this thread to ask a question, does anyone know when the Kingdom of Heaven DVD is gonna be released? Ive been hearing september, can someone here officially confirm this?

wolviex · 25th June 2005, 02:54 PM

other rumors claimed 11 october

http://videoeta.com/movie.html?via=form&id=62561

Rick · 25th June 2005, 03:44 PM

I have no information about this but I think you guys are overly optimistic .
I'm figuring it for the Holiday season Nov.-Dec.

Aurangzeb · 3rd September 2005, 01:13 AM

Hello All!

When I saw the movie 'Sahara' I was shocked to see a Yemeni Jambiya wielded by one of the arabs. The dagger was a almost exact twin to my jambiya even down to approx. length and hilt materials and shape including the orange color hilt with two silver studs!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=jambiya

Mark...

Spunjer · 3rd September 2005, 01:27 AM

...just got done watching "Ong Bak Thai Warrior" and had some dhas on the side...

Aurangzeb · 4th September 2005, 05:57 PM

Hello All!

Another great movie is 'Khartoum', it is about the Mahdist revolt at the end of the 19th. century. There are a lot of kaskaras. Even a scene with a few koummyas and one Yemeni Jambiya. One of the best movies I have seen.

Mark...

nechesh · 6th October 2005, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolviex

other rumors claimed 11 october

http://videoeta.com/movie.html?via=form&id=62561

It would seem Wolviex's rumor was right on target. Kingdom of Heaven will be released on DVD October 11th.

Tim Simmons · 7th October 2005, 09:53 PM

The four feathers, followed by the array of SE Asian weapons at Kurtz's camp in "Apocalypse Now" especially the Philippine spear that gets the black chap in charge of the boat. Tim

Renegade Conquistador · 22nd October 2005, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Well, i think it's time to start transferring some favorite and on going threads to the new system. Here's the old thread for reference: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum.../002285-2.html
One of our Filippino friends mentioned that he would like to see a rousing epic of the Moros battle with the Spanish. I must agree that this would make a great film, given the right script and direction.

Indeed, the fierce struggle between the Spanish general Sebastian Hurtado de Corcuera (with his combined force of Spanish regulars and Visayan mercs), and the Moros under Sultan Kudarat, could make a great story.

Spunjer · 22nd October 2005, 04:58 AM

now, THAT would be epic...

Battara · 22nd October 2005, 05:32 AM

Spunjer I agree, and it would be legendary too.

Rick · 22nd October 2005, 06:25 PM

Ahhh , if wishes were fishes ......... <sigh>

I'm still waiting for the Hollywood clowns to release Farewell To The King on DVD .

nechesh · 22nd October 2005, 07:50 PM

Well Rick, if only you were a Brit. Seems Farwell to the King is available in PAL format DVD. There is a claim at this amazon link that the U.S. version will be available soon, but there must be some error because they claim the date will be sometime in 1969, 20 yrs. before the movie was even made.

Sorry, that link didn't seem to work so i took it out. Just go to amazon.com and go to the DVD section and enter the title.

Rick · 22nd October 2005, 08:41 PM

For them to mess with the head of a Woodstock attendee ......

Or is it still 1969 ????

Musta been that brown acid .

zamboanga · 27th October 2005, 10:13 AM

just for fun.

nechesh · 27th October 2005, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamboanga

just for fun.

Well, maybe that would have made it a better movie!

Renegade Conquistador · 27th October 2005, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamboanga

just for fun.

LOL--nice photoshop.

BTW, is your avatar a model of a karakoa?

Mark · 27th October 2005, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

For them to mess with the head of a Woodstock attendee ......

Or is it still 1969 ????

Musta been that brown acid .

You should have listened to Chip Monk.

Rick · 27th October 2005, 04:43 PM

Wavy Gravy man .

Uh oh , I'm waaay off topic here .
Please s'cuse .

Brucetroy · 25th November 2005, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

OK, i HIGHLY recommend you all go see the new Ridley Scott film "Kingdom of Heaven". The repros in it are absolutely amazing, especially some of the Muslim armor. Beautiful swords, great battle scenes, but ultimately a film more about peace than war. The acting is great, the cinematography sumptuous and Oscar-worthy. Actually worth the $8.50 and a must-see on the big screen.

I agree .I loved Kingdom of heaven.
How acurate was it historically and what years did the events supposedly cover ?
Thanks for a reply .
Cheers
Bruce

nechesh · 25th November 2005, 01:50 PM

Hi Brucetroy. You probably responded to my post before moving on through the thread, but i think you will find the answers to you questions in the discussion that followed.

Spunjer · 26th December 2005, 11:44 PM

add to the list, Bang-Rajan, an epic thai movie depicting the legendary villge of bang-rajan during the siam burmese war... lots and lots of sword fights and dhas...

3rd September 2005, 01:13 AM	#72
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	SAHARA Hello All! When I saw the movie 'Sahara' I was shocked to see a Yemeni Jambiya wielded by one of the arabs. The dagger was a almost exact twin to my jambiya even down to approx. length and hilt materials and shape including the orange color hilt with two silver studs! http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=jambiya Mark...

3rd September 2005, 01:27 AM	#73
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	...for the dhafias ...just got done watching "Ong Bak Thai Warrior" and had some dhas on the side...

7th October 2005, 09:53 PM	#76
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	The four feathers, followed by the array of SE Asian weapons at Kurtz's camp in "Apocalypse Now" especially the Philippine spear that gets the black chap in charge of the boat. Tim Last edited by Tim Simmons; 7th October 2005 at 10:18 PM.

22nd October 2005, 08:41 PM	#82
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Not Nice For them to mess with the head of a Woodstock attendee ...... Or is it still 1969 ???? Musta been that brown acid .

27th October 2005, 10:13 AM	#83
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	just for fun. Attached Images

17th May 2005, 11:39 PM	#61
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well, everyone's a critic. aren't they? Really though, when i read a history book i expect accurate history, when i go to the movies i hope for good cinema. This movie has some brillant cinematography, fairly good acting and sticks to a general outline of history that in many ways is fairly accurate. No, Balian and Sybilla do not run off together in real history, but where's your sense of romance , man! In fact, she pretty much conspired with Guy all the way through the true history, convincing her brother Baldwin IV to step down and allow her son by a previous marriage to become Baldwin V with Guy as his Regent. Others conspired for the throne as well, including her half-sister whose name escapes me. So many characters and a king are left out. The character of Raynald is fairly accurate and AFAIK he was indeed executed as he was in that scene where he drinks from the goblet. It is also my understanding that Balian WAS instrumental in negotiating the surrender and safe passage for those in Jerusalem (though he was no bastard blacksmith and apparently was always aware of his nobility). But the bottom line is that real history is just too complex to put down in a 2 1/2 hr. film in any cohesive manner that has any kind of dramatic flow and sense. No, this is not history, it's Hollywood. But more than that, it is also a film that has taken an age old sensless struggle for control of the holy land and created a message for OUR time that is both moving and perhaps even essential to our survival in the decade to come. As the film points out, this stuggle has raged off and on for a millineum. Isn't time it came to an end? That's a message i can tolerate a little fudged and finaggled history over. Especially when it looks so visually appealling. And Rick, ditto on the Duelist.

18th May 2005, 05:48 PM	#62
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Since this thread is about edged weapons in films, I think I had better stick in here some pics of Islamic swords. The first is (Allegedly) the Sword of Negm-ed-Din Ayyub, the father of Sultan El-Malik En-Nasser Salah-ed-Din Yusuf (i.e. Saladin). If it is we have a 12th century Islamic sword of the type which the 'Saracens' in Kingdom of Heaven should have been using. The second sword is 13th-14th century but very Similar to Ayyub's sword.

18th May 2005, 07:52 PM	#63
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Yes! thats the one. Thats the sword I was talking about. Saladin's father's Sword. The Syrian mamluk sword you posted is what probably most of the Ayyubid troops carried. There three others in the book too. I do not understand why on the earth these swords in the the Askeri museum, along with several arab sabk jambiyas are listed as "Turkish"

31st May 2005, 11:30 PM	#66
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Here are two (unfortunately somewhat overly nationalistic in message) video clips with lots of weaponry (supposedly georgian weapons) http://www.hangebi.com/hangebi/kviclo.zip and http://www.hangebi.com/hangebi/rivergeo.zip I had a lot of fun watching them.

4th June 2005, 11:40 PM	#67
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	a couple for those that are interested in Indonesia/Philippines. 1. Ring of Fire, an Indonesian Odyssey; www.mysticfire.com - You can buy all 5 films on a 2 dvd set, Nechesh will enjoy this if he hasn't already seen it. About the Blair brothers adventures through the Islands in the 70's, excellent. 2. Imelda, Power. Myth. Illusion. by Ramona S. Diaz. best documentry I have ever seen. Certainly not pro Imelda, but if you love her or hate her, you will enjoy this on many levels, & I do mean many levels. Only a born & raised Filipino can start to understand the PI, but this will give you a glimpse of some of the complexities, + it goes in & out of bizarro world. has a 90 second clip of the assassination attempt with a bolo, that almost killed her.

5th June 2005, 04:24 AM	#68
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Thanks Bill, I have seen some of this series, but not all of the films. Thanks for the reminder, i must add it to my Kerismas list.

25th June 2005, 02:20 PM	#69
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Hi, I would like to revive this thread to ask a question, does anyone know when the Kingdom of Heaven DVD is gonna be released? Ive been hearing september, can someone here officially confirm this?

25th June 2005, 02:54 PM	#70
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	other rumors claimed 11 october http://videoeta.com/movie.html?via=form&id=62561

25th June 2005, 03:44 PM	#71
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	I have no information about this but I think you guys are overly optimistic . I'm figuring it for the Holiday season Nov.-Dec.

4th September 2005, 05:57 PM	#74
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello All! Another great movie is 'Khartoum', it is about the Mahdist revolt at the end of the 19th. century. There are a lot of kaskaras. Even a scene with a few koummyas and one Yemeni Jambiya. One of the best movies I have seen. Mark...

22nd October 2005, 04:58 AM	#78
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	now, THAT would be epic...

22nd October 2005, 05:32 AM	#79
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Spunjer I agree, and it would be legendary too.

22nd October 2005, 06:25 PM	#80
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Ahhh , if wishes were fishes ......... <sigh> I'm still waiting for the Hollywood clowns to release Farewell To The King on DVD .

22nd October 2005, 07:50 PM	#81
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well Rick, if only you were a Brit. Seems Farwell to the King is available in PAL format DVD. There is a claim at this amazon link that the U.S. version will be available soon, but there must be some error because they claim the date will be sometime in 1969, 20 yrs. before the movie was even made. Sorry, that link didn't seem to work so i took it out. Just go to amazon.com and go to the DVD section and enter the title.

27th October 2005, 04:43 PM	#87
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Wavy Gravy man . Uh oh , I'm waaay off topic here . Please s'cuse .

25th November 2005, 01:50 PM	#89
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Brucetroy. You probably responded to my post before moving on through the thread, but i think you will find the answers to you questions in the discussion that followed.

26th December 2005, 11:44 PM	#90
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	add to the list, Bang-Rajan, an epic thai movie depicting the legendary villge of bang-rajan during the siam burmese war... lots and lots of sword fights and dhas...