Any Amazon collectors?

[KuKulzA28]

I am in awe... there are so many real examples of clubs I have only seen sketches of. This is amazing.


Well, I can't possibly show that sort of volume... but, I got a Yanomamö dueling club recently. It, like most things made by them, are made of natural materials, with no decor, and relatively simple but effective. You can see them briefly in the famous "Axe fight" scene, here. They began fighting with roof poles, and normally would have escalated to a club duel with these wooden-sword/shortstaff style clubs... but it escalated right into an ax/machete fight.

These are incredibly rare in collections, I know of only 2, mine and the one in the American Museum of Natural History.

[VANDOO]

I WOULD THINK THE COLLECTOR WHO HAS THIS COLLECTION WOULD HAVE QUITE A LOT OF INFORMATION ON THESE WEAPONS AND COULD ANSWER MANY QUESTIONS.
I KNOW THE SHORT HOURGLASS SHAPED CLUBS SOMETIMES HAVE TRIBAL DESIGNS.
FOCUSING ON THEM.
1. DO DIFFERENT DESIGNS TELL WHICH TRIBE AND REGION THEY CAME FROM.?
2. ARE MOST OF THE TRIBES MAKEING THESE CLUBS COASTAL TRIBES OF CARIB ORIGIONS?
3. WHICH ONES ARE WAR CLUBS AND ARE SOME OF THESE CLUBS FOR CEREMONIAL USE OR TO DENOTE PRESTIGE OR RANK OF THE OWNER.?

[Tim Simmons]

Truly amazing collection. This collector must have a group of porters to carry the wallet.

[Sajen]

Want to post pictures from this Kayopo club which just ended on ebay without someone bid but think the price was ok.

[Tim Simmons]

I think the price was not too bad. For me +shipping +import tax +VAT too much for one of the more common club types.

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I WOULD THINK THE COLLECTOR WHO HAS THIS COLLECTION WOULD HAVE QUITE A LOT OF INFORMATION ON THESE WEAPONS AND COULD ANSWER MANY QUESTIONS.
I KNOW THE SHORT HOURGLASS SHAPED CLUBS SOMETIMES HAVE TRIBAL DESIGNS.
FOCUSING ON THEM.
1. DO DIFFERENT DESIGNS TELL WHICH TRIBE AND REGION THEY CAME FROM.?
2. ARE MOST OF THE TRIBES MAKEING THESE CLUBS COASTAL TRIBES OF CARIB ORIGIONS?
3. WHICH ONES ARE WAR CLUBS AND ARE SOME OF THESE CLUBS FOR CEREMONIAL USE OR TO DENOTE PRESTIGE OR RANK OF THE OWNER.?

The hour-glass ones, you mean the Aputu?

They're mainly from the Carib and Arawak tribes. Caribs including island Carib, Kali'na, Ye'kwana, etc. and the related Makushi and other groups. The whole Guianas region had these clubs (French Guinana, Suriname, and Guyana).

I'm not sure about carvings or painting or designs denoting rank or tribal affiliation but I do know in more recent times there have been ones of poorer quality for tourism, or smaller seemingly less combat effective ones probably for dance... but all the really old ones seem at least 15-16" or a little more and made of quality hardwoods.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I think the price was not too bad. For me +shipping +import tax +VAT too much for one of the more common club types.

Hello Tim,

yes understand. But it seems to have a nice patina and I have posted the pictures mainly for reference and you can see good at the pictures the original bindings at the end of the wooven grip.

Regards,

Detlef

[Tim Simmons]

This one sold very recently in Aus for a very good price. If I did not have one already I could have gone for it with all the shipping, customs duty and VAT add on. Looks as if it has a native plant juice lacquer? 80cm so a quite a bit shorter than the other one in the USA.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

This one sold very recently in Aus for a very good price. If I did not have one already I could have gone for it with all the shipping, customs duty and VAT add on. Looks as if it has a native plant juice lacquer? 80cm so a quite a bit shorter than the other one in the USA.

Very, very nice one. Could it be made from black wood?

Regards,

Detlef

[KuKulzA28]

Looks beautiful. I wonder how often they are lacquered... the Kayapo clubs you see today (used in protests moreso than fights now) come in a variety of finishes, roughly hewn out or finely sanded down, some look newly made and some look older.

For anyone who's interest (or just "for the record") here's an example of Yanomami clubs from a museum in Venezuela. Seems to me, the Yanomami clubs are more roughly made than Shipibo, Kayapo, or many Guiana clubs... they're either sword-like 5-6' clubs made of palmwood, or 6'+ pool cue style staves often used in duels. I suspect the palmwood ones are more often used in war and for killing as the semi-sharp edges and material make killing easier... where-as the poles used in village duels (where opponents exchange blows on the head) is not usually lethal, but leaves nasty scars and concussions. Having said that, from my reading of Chagnon's works, it seems like in raids the Yanomami prefer to use their bows and arrows... but occasionally will use axes, machetes, and clubs in close - however a raid is considered a failure if even one of the raiders is killed by the enemy village...

[KuKulzA28]

Regarding Post #51 with the Ikpeng sword-bat

I found a video, at 3 minutes you see the kids showing two such clubs
the raised area on one side and the shallow furrow on the other is clear

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TOirYOJEt4

[Tim Simmons]

I took a picture of these two clubs in the Dhalem Berlin. They are from Micronesia. I cannot remember the exact Island group. I add them here just to show how similar they are to Amazon clubs.

[Tim Simmons]

From late last summer I made two purchases hoping to add to my collect but badly burnt my fingers on bad judgement. I console myself with the fact that things were a little troublesome at the time and you win some and you lose some when you gamble. However a New Year and a birthday too boot. So what about this. I am informed that it was collected by missionaries {1950s} from the Maquiritare peoples who inhabit areas of the extreme south of Venezuela and the border with Brazil, the area would have been part of the old idea of the Guyana's. Missionaries may have questionable motives but they have always been a good source of ethnographic material. 32 inches long, hard to get a good sense of it from one picture and not with similar pieces. Just have to go through a few weeks of waiting. What I do find immediately interesting is the difference in weave pattern when compared to the previous examples from much further south in this thread. When I have it I can make a more serious comparative study. In the meantime here is the item.

[VANDOO]

I LOOKED AT THE ITEM LAST NIGHT AND DECIDED TO PONDER ON IT FURTHER TODAY. GLAD TO SEE YOU GOT IT.
I JUST COULD NOT DETERMINE TO MY SATISFACTION IF IT WAS A WEAPON SYMBOLIC OR OTHERWISE OR SOME SORT OF IMPLEMENT. I DO BELIEVE THE INFORMATION OF AGE, LOCATION AND TRIBE AND WHO COLLECTED IT. A NICE AUTHENTIC TRIBAL NON-TOURIST ITEM. I LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR ASSESMENT WHEN YOU RECEIVE IT.

[Tim Simmons]

I think I have seen pictures of other Amazon pronged weapons I will search.

I am keeping me fingers that this is a case of---- He who hesitates is lost, rather than ---- Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread.

[colin henshaw]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I think I have seen pictures of other Amazon pronged weapons I will search.

I am keeping me fingers that this is a case of---- He who hesitates is lost, rather than ---- Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread.

Its could be a native cigar-holder, I will see if I can dig up some pics...

[VANDOO]

I HAVE SEEN TWO SOUTH AMERICAN FORK LIKE ITEMS REFERED TO AS WEAPONS THAT WERE NOT AS WELL MADE AS YOUR EXAMPLE, I NEVER COULD MAKE UP MY MIND ON THEM EITHER. THE WOOD USED TO MAKE YOUR EXAMPLE APPEARS TO BE A VERY NICE DARK HEAVY RED WOOD CALLED PAU IN BRAZIL. I THINK YOU DID WELL AT THE PRICE EVEN IF IT IS NOT A WAR CLUB. IT IS HARD TO GET ANY OLDER GOOD QUALITY ITEMS FROM SOUTH AMERICA AND THE PRICES DEMANDED BY MANY DEALERS ARE USUALLY TOO HIGH FOR ME THESE DAYS.

[Tim Simmons]

Colin I know what you mean by cigar holder, The end without the prongs is slightly reminiscent of the curved ends of a cigar holder. This item is 32 inches long, the same length as the Sudan club in the center of these two Amazon clubs. So it is quite substantial and will have some weight. I have found this picture of an Amazon forked weapon. I am sure I have seen larger version but cannot find any. The Indians in this region get their dart and weapon poison from tree sap. All you would need is some sap on the prongs and you have an extremely deadly close quarter weapon. The sourcing of this poison and much more background information on the Maquiritare and surrounding peoples can be found by watching a 6 part documentary on "youtube"

The Mystery Mountain.

I cannot remember which part has the poison collecting, best watch it all. Mention is made of the dangers posed by missionaries. As soon as I have it I will be able to show with other clubs.

Thanks Barry, I hope I have done well this time.

[Tim Simmons]

Scroll down and all is reveled. I think I have been very lucky, as you can see my item has been well handled and has substance.

http://www.indian-cultures.com/cultu...kuana-indians/

[VANDOO]

CONGRADULATIONS INDEED. SOMETIMES IT PAYS TO TAKE A LEAP AND NOT PONDER. THE ITEMS I HAD SEEN WERE LIKE THE TOURIST OR NEWLY MADE ONES WITH POOR WORKMANSHIP AND NO DECORATIVE FIBER WRAP. I NEVER COULD FIND ANY INFORMATION TO BE SURE THEY WERE A REAL TRIBAL OBJECT OR SOMETHING MADE UP OR A TOOL.
THIS LINK CLEARS THAT ALL UP. THE CLUB YOU HAVE IS LIKELY FOR CEREMONIE OR DANCE RATHER THAN WAR BUT THE 1950'S WAS EARLY CONTACT WITH THE OUTSIDE WORLD FOR MANY TRIBES. THAT BEING THE CASE YOUR EXAMPLE IS A GOOD OLD AUTHENTIC ONE THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE FOR TRIBAL USE. THE HANDLE END APPEARS TO HAVE HAD SOME CORDS MOST LIKELY DECORATIVE IN THE PAST. THAT WAS ONE OF THE THINGS I WAS PONDERING IF THE PRONGS WERE STUCK IN SOMETHING AND CORDS TIED TO SOMETHING ELSE . I THOUGHT THAT ONE OUT TOO FAR
HERE IS AN OLD BOOK PLATE SHOWING KALINA, CARIB WEAPONS, ECT. NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CURRENT CLUB BUT IT ADDS TO THE REFRENCE.

[VANDOO]

MY SHIP FINALLY CAME IN AND SUPRIZENLY THE CLUB WAS LOCATED ONLY 90 MILES FROM HOME AND FROM THE SAME SOURCE AS THE 3 PRONGED CLUB. IT WAS COLLECTED BY MISSONARIES IN THE 1950'S FROM THE MAQUIRITARE TRIBE ALSO KNOWN AS THE YEKUANA TRIBE. IT HAS DECORATIVE PARROT FEATHERS ATTACHED WITH A CORD AND IS IN GOOD SHAPE WITH A LABEL ATTACHED WITH COLLECTING DATA. 29.25IN. LONG.
pictures #1,2 &3
I WENT LOOKING AND FOUND ONE OF THE FORKED CLUBS I HAD SEEN QUITE A WHILE BACK AND GOT IT. IT HAS 3 PRONGS, MOST HAVE TWO PRONGS LIKE THE PICTURE OF THE DOUBBLE PRONGED YEKUANA DAGGER PICTURED ABOVE. THERE IS ALSO A SPECIMIN OF IT IN THE LARGE COLLECTION PICTURED IN THIS POST.
PICTURE #4 THREE PRONG. 43 INCHES LONG VILLAGE CARVER YEKUANA TRIBE, NAME AND PICTURE.
PICTURE #5 PERHAPS A MODERN VERSION OF CLUB #1
PIC. # 6. A 7 FOOT LONG VERSION OF THE 2 PRONGED FORM OF WEAPON.
PIC. 8 THRU 10 VARIATIONS OF TWO PRONGED CLUBS

[Tim Simmons]

That other club from the same source looks very nice. I had hoped I might get it too but I could not stretch my funds that far.

Anyway my forked club is finally here and I think it is great. As I suggested it is quite substantial and when put next to other weapons it is clearly not a toy. If your enemy traditionally went into battle wearing little more than some feathers, special body paint and a bit string tied around his doodah. Having this forked club thrust at him would really put him off. It needs a little care. When I find suitable fibers I will secure the weave and show more pictures

[VANDOO]

A VERY ATTRACTIVE FOURSOME AND FOUR DIFFERENT DESIGNS IN THE FIBER WRAPS. IT MAKES ONE WONDER HOW MANY DIFFERENT PATTERNS THERE ARE IN THE REGION AND THE MEANINGS OF EACH.

[Tim Simmons]

New picture of uncontacted peoples on the Peru Brazil border march 2014. Got this as yahoo news but not all of us will be with yahoo. So it is still out there. Clubs, where can I get one I want one I need one so badly

[VANDOO]

IT LOOKS LIKE THEY WOULD BE GLAD TO GIVE YOU THE CLUBS. IF YOU WON THE FIGHT YOU COULD EVEN KEEP THEM. OF COURSE THEY COULD BE FRIENDLY ITS JUST THAT THOSE NOISY HELICOPTERS INTURUPT THE NAP AND WAKE THE BABY.
THE AMAZON IS ONE OF THE FEW REGIONS LEFT WHERE YOU MAY COLLECT A ETHINOGRAPHIC CLUB, SPEAR, ARROW OR POISON DART IN YOUR CARCASS.

[Tim Simmons]

I am reduced to bad picture gambling again. The risk is no more than a couple of burgers and fries with perhaps one of those horrible soft drinks burger places sell. This club is 37 inches long ans approx 3.5 inches in diameter. Plain simple clubs like this are known as Amazon weapons. The wood looks like it could do with some dressing, rather dry in these pics. When it arrives better judgment can be made. I show three clubs as a size comparison. On the left is a Shavanti Amazon club 40 inches long, diameter 3.75 inches. Centre Kayapo 38 inches long with a rectangular end 2.75 inches x 2.25 inches. On the right a Fijian club approx 37 inches long with a head diameter of approx 3 inches. You can see why I having taken a chance. Will show more in time.

[fireiceviper]

Just bought these in a lot yosterday, they both seem to be from that area (the club(spear?) and blowgun (although this could be fake!).

But the club is HUUUGE just under 2 meters, made of palmwood, the plug in the bottom is someone's stupid attempt to mount it i think. anyone have a tribe? or area?

As for the blowgun, tourist piece perhaps? made out of the same wood (palmwood) and i like the look of it, pretty complex work! someone tried to keep it all together by sticking band-aids on it.... (look at the pictures )
This one could be fake, cuz the thatch-work doesn't look anything like the rest.

As for history off course i have none, but it was cheap; purchased in the Netherlands

[Tim Simmons]

Firstly my last item posted here turned out not to be what I was hoping.

I really like the heavy lance and I think that is a flat-pack furniture dowel stuck in the end. Can not tell much about the blowgun? from these pictures. All look genuine. Bought in the Netherlands, I would image these items are from the Guiana's the Dutch part being Suriname. I think you got a real bargain on that lance.

[fireiceviper]

It was in a lot with some "african" (tourist) spears and the reason i bought it is because i read this thread a couple of times!! it was indeed a real bargin, i got a nice Nande shield too in the same lot.

But to me its now about finding out which tribe? Surinam is a good place to start so i'll try there.

The prong in the bottom is definitely something some got from an ikea furniture kit

The blowgun is a mystery to me too, i have never seen anything like it?(same lot though and same wood so could be same area).

So what happened to you last item Tim Simmons? what was it?


P.s. now i'm on the hunt for a Macana Club, man those things are beautiful!

[Tim Simmons]

Adding another club very similar to a Bora? club I already have. This one is a little more decorative with feathers also lacking a central ridge. Both are 60cm in length. I hope to show more when it arrives.