Pata sword with European blade

Kubur · 28th July 2016, 08:57 PM

Hi,
I need your help.
I have this sword since few years now. This Indian pata has a nice blade.
I suspect this blade to be old and European. But i have no idea from where and when. I would appreciate any help.
Thanks
Kubur

Battara · 29th July 2016, 12:45 AM

Well.........just a thought: both Portuguese and British were there in the 17th century.

2 places to start.

Another thought would be to post also in the European section since you are asking about the European blade.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th July 2016, 03:17 AM

Originally Posted by estcrh
If you have not already read this essay you should, it is from the book titled Sultans of the South: Arts of India's Deccan Courts, 1323-1687 By Navina Najat Haidar, Marika Sardar, 2011.

"Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries: their manufacture and the influence of European imports" by Robert Elgood.

https://books.google.com/books?id=i...epage&q&f=false

mariusgmioc · 30th July 2016, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Another thought would be to post also in the European section since you are asking about the European blade.

That's where it was originally posted.

Jens Nordlunde · 30th July 2016, 02:41 PM

Search for "Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries" on Google, go to the MET's homepage, and you can download the book (I think) as a PDF file.

Maybe the blade is European, but I am not convinced, as I think there are pointers towards India. It could also be European and decorated later in India - it is not easy to tell from a picture.

Kubur · 31st July 2016, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Search for "Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries" on Google, go to the MET's homepage, and you can download the book (I think) as a PDF file.

Thank you all for the reference! and the link!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

It could also be European and decorated later in India - it is not easy to tell from a picture.

Why not, but the decoration is going right under the rivets and the pata.

mariusgmioc · 31st July 2016, 01:56 PM

My speculation is that many Pata were indeed fitted with European blades, but even more so were fitted with locally made Indian blades that sometimes imitated the European design.

The fighting style with the Pata involves ample circular movements (of the whole arm and body) that require particularly flexible blades. A Pata swordsman will practically spin around waving the blade in circular moves and create a wide perimeter around him where any opponent would be at risk of being struck. If the blade is not flexible enough, a shield or even a stick can not only block the blow, but can easily throw the wielder off-balance or even break his arm. Therefore, the blade must necessarily be very elastic so it can bounce off any rigid parrying device and dissipate the shock of the parry.

While some European blades may be elastic just about enough to provide some functionality to the Pata, most of them were way too rigid to be of practical use in a Pata mount.

And I particularly doubt that any European swordsmith would bother to produce dedicated Pata blades for export to India, since even in India Pata wasn't very widely used, and since India itself didn't see such a dramatic shortage of native capable swordsmiths.

I am attaching some photos of a Pata I have, where one can easily see how thin the blade is (last photo).

Also at the link below, you can see a Pata with a very similar, very thin and elastic blade.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=92078

Kubur · 29th July 2016, 10:42 AM

Hi,
I need your help.
I have this sword since few years now. This Indian pata has a nice blade.
I suspect this blade to be old and European. But i have no idea from where and when. I would appreciate any help.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21717
Thanks
Kubur

fernando · 29th July 2016, 12:53 PM

Don't pay much notice to what i say but, the decoration in the ricasso doesn't look European to me... at least not Portuguese

.
Is it flexible ?

mariusgmioc · 29th July 2016, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Is it flexible ?

Hello Fernando,

May I know why are you asking?

I also have a similar Patah but with a different blade that is quite flexible (much more flexible than any of the other blades I have).

While I am by no means very knowledgeable on this subject, I agree with you that the decorations on the ricasso don't look European.

Jim McDougall · 30th July 2016, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello Fernando,

May I know why are you asking?

I also have a similar Patah but with a different blade that is quite flexible (much more flexible than any of the other blades I have).

While I am by no means very knowledgeable on this subject, I agree with you that the decorations on the ricasso don't look European.

Just to be more specific Marius.
This pata, as I noted, has a central fuller which is very much like European blades, most notably schiavona, which often were Solingen made. These central fuller blades were sometimes known to be of African production, however most often imported into Sudan in 1870s-80s (Suakin was one Red Sea entrepot). Peres and Clauberg were noted makers that come to mind. If this blade is not so marked it might be a blank from Solingen.

It is not Indian made .....question, why would the langet/bolster be riveted into the fuller? I am under the impression this might compromise the blade if drilled through. Perhaps that is why these central fuller blades might not be chosen by Indian armourer? or ?

Just asking for your valued opinion, and trying to offer helpful suggestions pending more useful responses.

mariusgmioc · 31st July 2016, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Just to be more specific Marius.
This pata, as I noted, has a central fuller which is very much like European blades, most notably schiavona, which often were Solingen made. These central fuller blades were sometimes known to be of African production, however most often imported into Sudan in 1870s-80s (Suakin was one Red Sea entrepot). Peres and Clauberg were noted makers that come to mind. If this blade is not so marked it might be a blank from Solingen.

It is not Indian made .....question, why would the langet/bolster be riveted into the fuller? I am under the impression this might compromise the blade if drilled through. Perhaps that is why these central fuller blades might not be chosen by Indian armourer? or ?

Just asking for your valued opinion, and trying to offer helpful suggestions pending more useful responses.

Thank you Jim for your thoughts!

My blade can definitely be of European origin as European bladesmiths definitely had the knowledge to produce blades with such properties.

But then, if the blade was made in Europe, for what type of sword was it made because it would be too thin and elastic for any type of European sword I know?! It would only be suitable for an Indian Pata, that employs a very particular fighting style where a very elastic blade is required.

PS: Here is a link to an older thread about a Pata with a blade very similar to mine, and apparently equally elastic:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=92078

Jim McDougall · 29th July 2016, 08:31 PM

S.

I am inclined to think this blade is 'European' as well. I would note here that while Portuguese colonization was predominant early, there are not that many surviving blades from those early sources in India (that I know of). Naturally there are some examples but the more profound entries seem to have been primarily German or Styrian made blades, which became well known by 17th century.

The earliest Portuguese blades were likely some of the rapier blades which were fitted to khandas with basket hilts (firangi) , in fact it is said that the word firangi actually specified Portuguese. Actually it was far more generic, as in variation it occurs in other languages meaning 'foreign or Frankish(?)'.

The British blades were mostly scorned by Indian merchants, and they were not prevalent anyway, as the relatively limited numbers of British makers were not inclined to export. Most blades were actually German, filtered through English commerce.

Here I would note this blade, which by fullering and general blade character does (to me) seem European, and the squared cartouche triptych with four leaf devices reminds me of such patterns seen in North African hilt motif but occasionally on blades. It seems they are seen on Saharan (Tuareg) hilts as well as possibly on some kaskara.
While it is tempting to see these squares as 'Maltese crosses', they also are seen as four leaf patterns. Most such devices seem to represent the four cardinal directions in native symbolism.

There was an apparent degree of cross pollination of African blades to India, and less often some European blades from India into Africa. The Red Sea trade machine accounts for this in my opinion.
I have seen tulwar hilts with blades having profuse thuluth obviously from Mahdist period kaskara .....and I had a pata which had a kaskara blade with the cosmologic motif and central triple fullers.

Conversely, I have seen kaskara with single edged Italian blades with old markings suggesting probably from firangi sources in India.

Just my thoughts.

Jim McDougall · 29th July 2016, 08:36 PM

Just saw Marius' post. In my view this is likely a kaskara blade as well, the center fuller resembles many European blades (mostly schiavona types) which found their way into North African entrepots.
It is hard to tell as the upper part of the fuller is obscured by the blade bolster. Most 'firangi' in khanda or pata it seems did not have these single central fullers.

mariusgmioc · 29th July 2016, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Just saw Marius' post. In my view this is likely a kaskara blade as well, the center fuller resembles many European blades (mostly schiavona types) which found their way into North African entrepots.
It is hard to tell as the upper part of the fuller is obscured by the blade bolster. Most 'firangi' in khanda or pata it seems did not have these single central fullers.

Very interesting thoughts. Thank you!

However, I doubt that my blade is European because it is more flexible/elastic than any European blades I have seen. It also appears to be somehow thinner. Yet it keeps shape extremely well like it is a big leaf spring.

I wonder how flexible is Kubur's blade?!

28th July 2016, 08:57 PM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Pata sword with European blade Hi, I need your help. I have this sword since few years now. This Indian pata has a nice blade. I suspect this blade to be old and European. But i have no idea from where and when. I would appreciate any help. Thanks Kubur Attached Images

31st July 2016, 01:56 PM	#7
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	My speculation is that many Pata were indeed fitted with European blades, but even more so were fitted with locally made Indian blades that sometimes imitated the European design. The fighting style with the Pata involves ample circular movements (of the whole arm and body) that require particularly flexible blades. A Pata swordsman will practically spin around waving the blade in circular moves and create a wide perimeter around him where any opponent would be at risk of being struck. If the blade is not flexible enough, a shield or even a stick can not only block the blow, but can easily throw the wielder off-balance or even break his arm. Therefore, the blade must necessarily be very elastic so it can bounce off any rigid parrying device and dissipate the shock of the parry. While some European blades may be elastic just about enough to provide some functionality to the Pata, most of them were way too rigid to be of practical use in a Pata mount. And I particularly doubt that any European swordsmith would bother to produce dedicated Pata blades for export to India, since even in India Pata wasn't very widely used, and since India itself didn't see such a dramatic shortage of native capable swordsmiths. I am attaching some photos of a Pata I have, where one can easily see how thin the blade is (last photo). Also at the link below, you can see a Pata with a very similar, very thin and elastic blade. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=92078 Attached Images Last edited by mariusgmioc; 31st July 2016 at 07:20 PM.

29th July 2016, 10:42 AM	#8
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	European blade Hi, I need your help. I have this sword since few years now. This Indian pata has a nice blade. I suspect this blade to be old and European. But i have no idea from where and when. I would appreciate any help. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21717 Thanks Kubur Attached Images

29th July 2016, 12:45 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Well.........just a thought: both Portuguese and British were there in the 17th century. 2 places to start. Another thought would be to post also in the European section since you are asking about the European blade.

30th July 2016, 03:17 AM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Originally Posted by estcrh If you have not already read this essay you should, it is from the book titled Sultans of the South: Arts of India's Deccan Courts, 1323-1687 By Navina Najat Haidar, Marika Sardar, 2011. "Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries: their manufacture and the influence of European imports" by Robert Elgood. https://books.google.com/books?id=i...epage&q&f=false

30th July 2016, 02:41 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Search for "Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries" on Google, go to the MET's homepage, and you can download the book (I think) as a PDF file. Maybe the blade is European, but I am not convinced, as I think there are pointers towards India. It could also be European and decorated later in India - it is not easy to tell from a picture.

29th July 2016, 12:53 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Don't pay much notice to what i say but, the decoration in the ricasso doesn't look European to me... at least not Portuguese . Is it flexible ?

29th July 2016, 08:31 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	S. I am inclined to think this blade is 'European' as well. I would note here that while Portuguese colonization was predominant early, there are not that many surviving blades from those early sources in India (that I know of). Naturally there are some examples but the more profound entries seem to have been primarily German or Styrian made blades, which became well known by 17th century. The earliest Portuguese blades were likely some of the rapier blades which were fitted to khandas with basket hilts (firangi) , in fact it is said that the word firangi actually specified Portuguese. Actually it was far more generic, as in variation it occurs in other languages meaning 'foreign or Frankish(?)'. The British blades were mostly scorned by Indian merchants, and they were not prevalent anyway, as the relatively limited numbers of British makers were not inclined to export. Most blades were actually German, filtered through English commerce. Here I would note this blade, which by fullering and general blade character does (to me) seem European, and the squared cartouche triptych with four leaf devices reminds me of such patterns seen in North African hilt motif but occasionally on blades. It seems they are seen on Saharan (Tuareg) hilts as well as possibly on some kaskara. While it is tempting to see these squares as 'Maltese crosses', they also are seen as four leaf patterns. Most such devices seem to represent the four cardinal directions in native symbolism. There was an apparent degree of cross pollination of African blades to India, and less often some European blades from India into Africa. The Red Sea trade machine accounts for this in my opinion. I have seen tulwar hilts with blades having profuse thuluth obviously from Mahdist period kaskara .....and I had a pata which had a kaskara blade with the cosmologic motif and central triple fullers. Conversely, I have seen kaskara with single edged Italian blades with old markings suggesting probably from firangi sources in India. Just my thoughts.

29th July 2016, 08:36 PM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Just saw Marius' post. In my view this is likely a kaskara blade as well, the center fuller resembles many European blades (mostly schiavona types) which found their way into North African entrepots. It is hard to tell as the upper part of the fuller is obscured by the blade bolster. Most 'firangi' in khanda or pata it seems did not have these single central fullers.