keris blade for comment. - Page 3

tom hyle · 11th April 2005, 10:44 PM

Liver of sulphur? I believe my mother used to make that, with onions and gravy

BSMStar · 11th April 2005, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Liver of sulphur? I believe my mother used to make that, with onions and gravy

I think I'll pass.

nechesh · 11th April 2005, 11:52 PM

Yep, Tom, that's the way my mom made liver as well.

No Wayne, I just used the arsenic trioxide, just as specified by the formula in the thread i passed on. It works just fine.

capt.smash · 11th April 2005, 11:52 PM

BSMStar no special steps taken i suspected the acidity of the fruit juice keeps the nickel clean although it did stain very slightly but after i removed the blade from the solution and ran a rag over it .....[there seemed to be a residual loose covering of stain all over the blade] it wiped off to the level that you see it now and has stayed like this despite weeks of handleing and further whipeing...i got the impresion that if i had left it any longer then the nickel would indeed have been stained....i also suspect that if this uccured then you could bathe or polish the blade with a rag soaked in lime juice to get the desired afect as the reaction that causes the staining afects and takes purchase much more on the steel than the nickel steel.

BSMStar · 11th April 2005, 11:54 PM

OK nechesh.

I have posted a new thread... Plastic Keris. There you will see what it looks like now.

BSMStar · 12th April 2005, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by capt.smash

BSMStar no special steps taken i suspected the acidity of the fruit juice keeps the nickel clean although it did stain very slightly but after i removed the blade from the solution and ran a rag over it .....[there seemed to be a residual loose covering of stain all over the blade] it wiped off to the level that you see it now and has stayed like this despite weeks of handleing and further whipeing...i got the impresion that if i had left it any longer then the nickel would indeed have been stained....i also suspect that if this uccured then you could bathe or polish the blade with a rag soaked in lime juice to get the desired afect as the reaction that causes the staining afects and takes purchase much more on the steel than the nickel steel.

Thanks Smashy!

If my memory is correct (and I am getting older, so don't hold me to it), Potassium Sulfide reacts more quickly than traditional Warangan. So I will start with a more dilute solution. I will experiment on the pesi first and see what happens. Thanks for the help.

BSMStar · 12th April 2005, 01:14 AM

I been looking for Arsenic Trioxide (As2O3)... and I found it, it is a bit pricey. I still think Potassium Sulfide will do the trick (its cheap and safer to use), it will make silver black! It is used to make patinas on other metals too. I guess we'll see what happens...

nechesh · 12th April 2005, 02:44 AM

Wayne, when i bought my arsenic it was $25 a gram, but the hazzardous material fee was almost as much as the arsenic itself. But using the method i use actually uses very little at a time, so i still have a bit left. You will probably get a good effect from potassium sulfide, but i doubt you will get the "correct" color for the particular iron of your blade. Given the keris you are experimenting on this might not be a big concern, but it would probably make a difference in a cultural context.

Rick · 12th April 2005, 02:51 PM

Hi Wayne , I have even run into problems getting one (yes I sin) particular keris blade even clean enough for staining . I washed it with every available solvent from acetone to paint stripper , long soaks , strong detergent afterward . Then I would put it in my oven to warm it for staining and it still reeked of sandalwood oil , even after repeated efforts . The blade seemed to be impregnated through and through with the stuff .

I have tried Liver of sulpher (get out your gas mask!) on blades with no success . I think I've also used Muriatic , FECL , most anything I could find that was readily available . It will be interesting to see what your results will be .

BSMStar · 12th April 2005, 07:11 PM

Hi Rick,

Thanks for the heads up!

If you have any contamination from oils, staining will not occur.

The blade I have pictured, smells kind of like ivory soap. It has been washed and blacked (maybe ink like a magic maker?) but not oiled. Maybe I'll get lucky and not have to work through the oil problem?

Muriatic or Hydrochloric Acid (HCI) could be used to etch the blade, but would do so poorly on its own.

FECL (I assume you mean Ferric Chloride) is also mildly acidic and used widely to etch blades.

I do not think either of these will remove oil. Generally, solvents would be your best approach (you may have to immerse the blade over nite, scrub and repeat until the oil is removed), if you know what solvent would break down or dissolve the oil you are dealing with (you may have more than just natural organic oils, but mineral oil and other synthetic oils, which would likely need a different solvent to efficiently remove it). Unfortunately, you have to know the oil you are removing to know what solvent to use.

Once you are down to bare metal, Potassium Sulfide will blacken the iron. And yes, it creates some H2S (hydrogen sulfide, btw.. it is toxic), the good ole rotten egg smell (it can't be any worse than my wife’s feet, can it?).

That's why I use it outside with plenty of ventilation.

I will show the good, the bad and the ugly (sounds like a movie).

Rick · 12th April 2005, 07:27 PM

Hi Wayne ,
I have tried Acetone soaks , but not overnight , and a product called kleenwood(sp?) which is a mixture of acetone and other solvents who's names escape me at the moment . I always figured that acetone would cut any kind of oil .
Any other solvent suggestions ?

Fecl , yes ferric chloride ; what is the proper designation for this chemical ?

Psst , where can I score some Potassium Sulfide man ?

One more thing ; pray your Signigant Other does not read this forum !

tom hyle · 13th April 2005, 01:46 AM

strong alcohol is often good to try; it's real cheap, so an overnight bath in it is not expensive to try, if you have a long tray or cylinder of some kind. Never heard of it hurting a blade. It's great if you want to strip down black or brown hardened-down-oil patina, or some Irian Jayan paint; great cheap solvent. 90%+ isopropyl is usually available.

BSMStar · 13th April 2005, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Hi Wayne ,
I have tried Acetone soaks , but not overnight , and a product called kleenwood(sp?) which is a mixture of acetone and other solvents who's names escape me at the moment . I always figured that acetone would cut any kind of oil .
Any other solvent suggestions ?

Fecl , yes ferric chloride ; what is the proper designation for this chemical ?

Psst , where can I score some Potassium Sulfide man ?

One more thing ; pray your Signigant Other does not read this forum !

Hi Rick,

Although I work with the stuff, I'll ask a "higher" order and see what response I get. Our application is a bit different. I fear that most of the solvents I have access to, you may have a little difficulty in finding (do you know a local paint chemist??? they could hook you up).

FeCl3... I was lazy with Caps and lower case back in my college days... did I catch heck for it (and then the professor started marking my grades down for it... that fixed the problem).

They got the stuff on the net (you may want to surf for a better deal)... but since you are almost a neighbor, you can try Cole Parmer:
http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/pr...=852&sku=&sel=
Cat #7778-80-5, 500 grams for $27.80

Rick, what can I say... She loves me! (maybe you can show me the secret Staff delete key?)

BSMStar · 13th April 2005, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

strong alcohol is often good to try; it's real cheap, so an overnight bath in it is not expensive to try, if you have a long tray or cylinder of some kind. Never heard of it hurting a blade. It's great if you want to strip down black or brown hardened-down-oil patina, or some Irian Jayan paint; great cheap solvent. 90%+ isopropyl is usually available.

Isopropanol will not hurt a blade, there is 1n-butylnol, methanol and ethanol, all are alcohol solvents that have different "cutting" properties and will not hurt a blade. All of these alcohols are toxic to some degree (keep off the ethanol, mama always said it was bad).

Sorry, I not knowledgeable enough in this area to recommend to best.

capt.smash · 13th April 2005, 12:09 PM

Two products i know for removeing oils are cellulos thinners and panel whipe[alittle milder] these are both used in the auto paint industry and are standard products ,i used panel whipe on the bali blade,it is designed to remove ANY oils from a section of car bodywork before it is sprayed[even the oil from a finger print will react with the paint].Personaly id try soaking the blade in cellulos thinners for 24hrs with an ocasional skrub with an old toothbrush that should do the trick

BSMStar · 13th April 2005, 12:48 PM

Hey Smashy,

Thanks for the info... I only hope my venture looks half as good as yours!

tom hyle · 13th April 2005, 02:14 PM

Yeah, you really shouldn't breathe any of these cleaning solutions; in a closed room you can get drunk on isopropyl fumes real fast, and you know that's not good for you. More expensive, but I don't think there's any reason pure grain alcohol shouln't be similar, and not as bad for you, but ventilation is the main thing; I like to do things anywhere between a room with open windows to outside, depending on toxicity, etc.

Rick · 13th April 2005, 02:47 PM

If you want to use a glass vessel which makes it easy to watch the process in action for better control try a Florists shop ; they most always have very tall ,reasonably inexpensive tapered glass vases . My example is 22.5" tall X 4.25" at the opening .

There's also the PVC pipe route but it offers no visibility while etching .

BSMStar · 13th April 2005, 08:50 PM

Rick,

After hobnobbing with my fellow wizards... hmmm, I mean chemist (sorry, that was the Wizard of Oz coming out):

Wash the blade in a solution of TSP (Trisodium Phosphate), and rinse well with water. Dry. Then use either VM&P Naphtha (faster evaporating) or Mineral Spirits (slower evaporating) to solvent wash/soak the blade. Do not substitute charcoal lighter fluid (it is usually Mineral Spirits with contaminates that prevent it from being used as Mineral Spirits). Be aware that both solvents are flamable, do not use near sparks or open flame. Use outdoors with plenty of ventilation!

TSP (Trisodium Phosphate), a detergent.

VM & P Naphtha - A fast evaporating, clear, colorless aliphatic hydrocarbon solvent. Used primarily to thin exterior or interior oil based paints, varnishes and enamels for spray applications where mineral spirits drying time is to slow.

Mineral Spirits - A thinner for oil based paints, enamels, varnishes, stains, etc. Ideal for cleaning brushes or rollers. An excellent solvent for oil, grease, tar and wax.

All of these are available in a hardware store.

Rick · 13th April 2005, 09:32 PM

Wayne,
You mean I'm not in Kansas anymore ?

You know TSP had entirely slipped my mind and I used to paint houses , what can I say but DOH !!

Thanks for the jog .

BSMStar · 13th April 2005, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Wayne,
You mean I'm not in Kansas anymore ?

You aren't??? You never told me you moved? Or did they move Kansas again?

(Even though I can see alot of gulls here from time to time, I think you are a little closer to the beach than I am... its a loooong drive for me to see the big pond.)

Rick · 13th April 2005, 11:47 PM

Wayne , I am IN the ocean

, as far east as you can get in MA .

BSMStar · 14th April 2005, 01:29 AM

Rick,

Yea, I know... on that nice little spit of land that points north in eastern most part of MA, (I already looked it up over a satellite, just wave up at me). I told you that you were closer to the beach.

Rick · 14th April 2005, 02:14 AM

Time to get out the cloak of invisibility ..

Andrew · 14th April 2005, 04:13 AM

And you thought you were being sooo cute by posting your coordinates when I urged folks to list their location....

Rick · 14th April 2005, 02:25 PM

Hey , everyone loves a challenge , no ?

And I am kinda cute .

Antway let's get back to serious stuff here .
We really digress .

BSMStar · 14th April 2005, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

And you thought you were being sooo cute by posting your coordinates when I urged folks to list their location....

(Living on the big CC)

If you want to play...
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/

(Rick, my wife asked how cute -- don't answer that, it will only encourage her)

OK, I'm done... back to the topic.

BSMStar · 22nd April 2005, 06:18 PM

Do not use the earlier link for Potassium Sulfide...

What started as Potassium Sulfide ended pointing to Potassium Sulfate (in the search that was ran), which is not likely to work.

Try this one (I checked it personally)...

http://www.rainbowsupply.com/search_...rch=fromSearch

The cost does not look too bad, but there is a $10 handling fee on top of shipping that ends up costing more than the product (almost sounds like some of those "rare" swords on ebay

).

My apologies for the mistake.

capt.smash · 22nd April 2005, 07:00 PM

Have you tried it out yet?

BSMStar · 24th April 2005, 09:51 PM

Hi Smashy,

Not yet, I am waiting on the Liver to arrive. LabanTayo is now out of town too, so I might wait until he gets back (in about two weeks or so). I've been looking at the keris... it a beauty, so I hope this stains properly. Otherwise I will probably send it off.

12th April 2005, 01:14 AM	#67
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	arsenic trioxide (As2O3) I been looking for Arsenic Trioxide (As2O3)... and I found it, it is a bit pricey. I still think Potassium Sulfide will do the trick (its cheap and safer to use), it will make silver black! It is used to make patinas on other metals too. I guess we'll see what happens...

13th April 2005, 02:47 PM	#78
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Great Etching/Soaking Containers . If you want to use a glass vessel which makes it easy to watch the process in action for better control try a Florists shop ; they most always have very tall ,reasonably inexpensive tapered glass vases . My example is 22.5" tall X 4.25" at the opening . There's also the PVC pipe route but it offers no visibility while etching .

13th April 2005, 08:50 PM	#79
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Rick, After hobnobbing with my fellow wizards... hmmm, I mean chemist (sorry, that was the Wizard of Oz coming out): Wash the blade in a solution of TSP (Trisodium Phosphate), and rinse well with water. Dry. Then use either VM&P Naphtha (faster evaporating) or Mineral Spirits (slower evaporating) to solvent wash/soak the blade. Do not substitute charcoal lighter fluid (it is usually Mineral Spirits with contaminates that prevent it from being used as Mineral Spirits). Be aware that both solvents are flamable, do not use near sparks or open flame. Use outdoors with plenty of ventilation! TSP (Trisodium Phosphate), a detergent. VM & P Naphtha - A fast evaporating, clear, colorless aliphatic hydrocarbon solvent. Used primarily to thin exterior or interior oil based paints, varnishes and enamels for spray applications where mineral spirits drying time is to slow. Mineral Spirits - A thinner for oil based paints, enamels, varnishes, stains, etc. Ideal for cleaning brushes or rollers. An excellent solvent for oil, grease, tar and wax. All of these are available in a hardware store. Last edited by BSMStar; 13th April 2005 at 09:04 PM.

14th April 2005, 01:29 AM	#83
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Hmmm, not in Kansas.... really? Rick, Yea, I know... on that nice little spit of land that points north in eastern most part of MA, (I already looked it up over a satellite, just wave up at me). I told you that you were closer to the beach.

14th April 2005, 02:14 AM	#84
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Oh Dear Time to get out the cloak of invisibility ..

11th April 2005, 10:44 PM	#61
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Liver of sulphur? I believe my mother used to make that, with onions and gravy

11th April 2005, 11:52 PM	#63
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Yep, Tom, that's the way my mom made liver as well. No Wayne, I just used the arsenic trioxide, just as specified by the formula in the thread i passed on. It works just fine.

11th April 2005, 11:52 PM	#64
capt.smash Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Devon ,England Posts: 80	BSMStar no special steps taken i suspected the acidity of the fruit juice keeps the nickel clean although it did stain very slightly but after i removed the blade from the solution and ran a rag over it .....[there seemed to be a residual loose covering of stain all over the blade] it wiped off to the level that you see it now and has stayed like this despite weeks of handleing and further whipeing...i got the impresion that if i had left it any longer then the nickel would indeed have been stained....i also suspect that if this uccured then you could bathe or polish the blade with a rag soaked in lime juice to get the desired afect as the reaction that causes the staining afects and takes purchase much more on the steel than the nickel steel.

11th April 2005, 11:54 PM	#65
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	OK nechesh. I have posted a new thread... Plastic Keris. There you will see what it looks like now.

12th April 2005, 02:44 AM	#68
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Wayne, when i bought my arsenic it was $25 a gram, but the hazzardous material fee was almost as much as the arsenic itself. But using the method i use actually uses very little at a time, so i still have a bit left. You will probably get a good effect from potassium sulfide, but i doubt you will get the "correct" color for the particular iron of your blade. Given the keris you are experimenting on this might not be a big concern, but it would probably make a difference in a cultural context.

12th April 2005, 02:51 PM	#69
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Hi Wayne , I have even run into problems getting one (yes I sin) particular keris blade even clean enough for staining . I washed it with every available solvent from acetone to paint stripper , long soaks , strong detergent afterward . Then I would put it in my oven to warm it for staining and it still reeked of sandalwood oil , even after repeated efforts . The blade seemed to be impregnated through and through with the stuff . I have tried Liver of sulpher (get out your gas mask!) on blades with no success . I think I've also used Muriatic , FECL , most anything I could find that was readily available . It will be interesting to see what your results will be .

12th April 2005, 07:11 PM	#70
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Hi Rick, Thanks for the heads up! If you have any contamination from oils, staining will not occur. The blade I have pictured, smells kind of like ivory soap. It has been washed and blacked (maybe ink like a magic maker?) but not oiled. Maybe I'll get lucky and not have to work through the oil problem? Muriatic or Hydrochloric Acid (HCI) could be used to etch the blade, but would do so poorly on its own. FECL (I assume you mean Ferric Chloride) is also mildly acidic and used widely to etch blades. I do not think either of these will remove oil. Generally, solvents would be your best approach (you may have to immerse the blade over nite, scrub and repeat until the oil is removed), if you know what solvent would break down or dissolve the oil you are dealing with (you may have more than just natural organic oils, but mineral oil and other synthetic oils, which would likely need a different solvent to efficiently remove it). Unfortunately, you have to know the oil you are removing to know what solvent to use. Once you are down to bare metal, Potassium Sulfide will blacken the iron. And yes, it creates some H2S (hydrogen sulfide, btw.. it is toxic), the good ole rotten egg smell (it can't be any worse than my wife’s feet, can it?). That's why I use it outside with plenty of ventilation. I will show the good, the bad and the ugly (sounds like a movie).

12th April 2005, 07:27 PM	#71
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Hi Wayne , I have tried Acetone soaks , but not overnight , and a product called kleenwood(sp?) which is a mixture of acetone and other solvents who's names escape me at the moment . I always figured that acetone would cut any kind of oil . Any other solvent suggestions ? Fecl , yes ferric chloride ; what is the proper designation for this chemical ? Psst , where can I score some Potassium Sulfide man ? One more thing ; pray your Signigant Other does not read this forum !

13th April 2005, 01:46 AM	#72
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	strong alcohol is often good to try; it's real cheap, so an overnight bath in it is not expensive to try, if you have a long tray or cylinder of some kind. Never heard of it hurting a blade. It's great if you want to strip down black or brown hardened-down-oil patina, or some Irian Jayan paint; great cheap solvent. 90%+ isopropyl is usually available.

13th April 2005, 12:09 PM	#75
capt.smash Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Devon ,England Posts: 80	Two products i know for removeing oils are cellulos thinners and panel whipe[alittle milder] these are both used in the auto paint industry and are standard products ,i used panel whipe on the bali blade,it is designed to remove ANY oils from a section of car bodywork before it is sprayed[even the oil from a finger print will react with the paint].Personaly id try soaking the blade in cellulos thinners for 24hrs with an ocasional skrub with an old toothbrush that should do the trick

13th April 2005, 12:48 PM	#76
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Hey Smashy, Thanks for the info... I only hope my venture looks half as good as yours!

13th April 2005, 02:14 PM	#77
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yeah, you really shouldn't breathe any of these cleaning solutions; in a closed room you can get drunk on isopropyl fumes real fast, and you know that's not good for you. More expensive, but I don't think there's any reason pure grain alcohol shouln't be similar, and not as bad for you, but ventilation is the main thing; I like to do things anywhere between a room with open windows to outside, depending on toxicity, etc.

13th April 2005, 09:32 PM	#80
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Wayne, You mean I'm not in Kansas anymore ? You know TSP had entirely slipped my mind and I used to paint houses , what can I say but DOH !! Thanks for the jog .

13th April 2005, 11:47 PM	#82
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Wayne , I am IN the ocean , as far east as you can get in MA .

14th April 2005, 04:13 AM	#85
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	And you thought you were being sooo cute by posting your coordinates when I urged folks to list their location....

14th April 2005, 02:25 PM	#86
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Hey , everyone loves a challenge , no ? And I am kinda cute . Antway let's get back to serious stuff here . We really digress .

22nd April 2005, 06:18 PM	#88
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Source for Liver of Sulfur (USA) Do not use the earlier link for Potassium Sulfide... What started as Potassium Sulfide ended pointing to Potassium Sulfate (in the search that was ran), which is not likely to work. Try this one (I checked it personally)... http://www.rainbowsupply.com/search_...rch=fromSearch The cost does not look too bad, but there is a $10 handling fee on top of shipping that ends up costing more than the product (almost sounds like some of those "rare" swords on ebay ). My apologies for the mistake.

22nd April 2005, 07:00 PM	#89
capt.smash Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Devon ,England Posts: 80	Have you tried it out yet?

24th April 2005, 09:51 PM	#90
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	I'm chomping at the bit. Hi Smashy, Not yet, I am waiting on the Liver to arrive. LabanTayo is now out of town too, so I might wait until he gets back (in about two weeks or so). I've been looking at the keris... it a beauty, so I hope this stains properly. Otherwise I will probably send it off.