Katzbalgers and Related Landsknecht Swords - Page 3

Matchlock · 24th March 2009, 03:52 PM

Hi Cornelis,

Thank you for posting these - this is an important sample of a Katzbalger indeed!!!

Actually, Saint Barbara is holding, additionally to the church tower, a martyr's palm, not a feather.

Well, I am not really afraid of abuse of my pictures. On the other hand, as soon as I will have a digital camera I may protect them by a printed logo as well.

Michael

cornelistromp · 24th March 2009, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Cornelis,

Thank you for posting these - this is an important sample of a Katzbalger indeed!!!

Actually, Saint Barbara is holding, additionally to the church tower, a martyr's palm, not a feather.

Well, I am not really afraid of abuse of my pictures. On the other hand, as soon as I will have a digital camera I may protect them by a printed logo as well.

Michael

Hi Michael,

thank you, Im very happy with it

do you agree that the person with the book and the sword at the reverse side is Saint Paulus ?

regards from Holland

Matchlock · 24th March 2009, 05:56 PM

Hi Cornelis,

I must admit that I cannot clearly make out the figure on the reverse - could you please post a better image? Thank you.

I have been collecting for almost 30 years and before puchasing my first piece I used to do intensive study. You will learn much more about me and my collection if care to you have a look at my earlier posts.

More comment on your other swords soon.

Best regards from Lower Bavaria,
Michael

Matchlock · 25th March 2009, 05:37 PM

Now that the auction is over I can post this fine piece which a friend of mine acquired for his collection with a little help from myself.

The catalog description called it 'composite' but we think that the blade and hilt are contemporary. Also we do not think that the grip ever had a wire binding as no traces of it can be seen on the leather.

Michael

Matchlock · 25th March 2009, 05:42 PM

The rest.

How you like it, Cornelis?

Michael

Matchlock · 25th March 2009, 08:41 PM

A related basket hilted sword, ca. 1570, sold Bonhams London, ex-Visser Collection, 2007. Unfortunately the detailed images that I received from the department are out of focus.

Michael

cornelistromp · 25th March 2009, 08:44 PM

congratulations, excellent condition, I think it can be homo-gene 1540

cf ewart oakeshott, European arms&Armour p142.

Matchlock · 25th March 2009, 08:48 PM

And a Landsknecht sword, ca. 1530-40, sold Bonhams London, 25 July 2007.

Michael

Matchlock · 25th March 2009, 08:53 PM

The rest.

cornelistromp · 25th March 2009, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

A related baket hilted sword, ca. 1570, sold Bonhams London, ex-Visser Collection, 2007. Unfortunately the detailed images that I got from the department are out of focus.

Michael

Hi Michael,

I have some better pictures for you

Matchlock · 25th March 2009, 08:57 PM

Great, Cornelis!

We can't wait to see them - thanks a lot!

Michael

Matchlock · 26th March 2009, 05:43 PM

Thank you so much, Cornelis, good pictures indeed!

Btw, I sent you a private email!

Please do not forget to take a good image of the other figure on the brass grip of your Katzbalger (St. Paul?).

Best,
Michael

cornelistromp · 26th March 2009, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Thank you so much, Cornelis, good pictures indeed!

Btw, I sent you a private email!

Please do not forget to take a good image of the other figure on the brass grip of your Katzbalger (St. Paul?).

Best,
Michael

Hello Michael,

I replaced st paul for a better picture( at th e old position in this thread) and of course answered your private mail.

Best regards

Matchlock · 26th March 2009, 06:58 PM

Hi Cornelis,

I think that you were absolutely right in assigning that engraving to St. Paul as the figure holds a sword and Paul was decapitated.

Congratulations again, you have both an impressive and important line of Katzbalgers!

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 27th March 2009, 04:30 PM

... on a painting of the Resurrection by Simon Franck, ca. 1525, in the basilica of Aschaffenburg/Northern Bavaria.

Michael

Matchlock · 27th March 2009, 05:02 PM

Details.

Matchlock · 27th March 2009, 05:04 PM

Here they are.

Gonzalo G · 5th April 2009, 05:43 AM

Michael, since you have handled this swords, ¿can you please give me an idea of their weight and maximun thickness of the blade? I mean, I know there are variations, but wich are the most usual? Thank you very much in advance. I am very interested in the geometry and physical charcteristics of the swords in general.
Regards

Gonzalo

Matchlock · 5th April 2009, 04:27 PM

Hi Gonzalo,

I should estimate the maximum thickness of a Katzbalger blade at 5-7 mm at the forte but can offer exact data of the two Katzbalgers at the German Historic Museum Berlin the pictures of which I re-attach below for convenience:

1. overall length 79 cm, length of blade 67.1 cm, maximum width of blade 4.5 cm, weight 1.3 kg

2. overall length 91 cm, length of blade 77.5 cm, maximum width of blade 3.9 cm, weight 1.47 kg

And the data of the hand and a half sword are:
overall length 1.36 m, length of blade 1.05 m, maximum width of blade 4.9 cm, weight 2.19 kg.

Best regards,
Michael

Matchlock · 5th April 2009, 04:45 PM

From Kisak's thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9653

I think that the blade of the Katzbalger is a later addition as almost all original Katzbalger blades characteristically have short fullers at the forte. The pommel and quillons show Italian influence and are datable to the 1530's, the bone grip and brass band are replacements.

The hand and a half estoc is datable to ca. 1525-30, the pommel and quillons retaining much of their originally blued surface as well as their characteristic roped decoration; the two iron rings on the grip are later additions.

Tanks again, Kisak!

Michael

fernando · 5th April 2009, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

... Not to forget something that might be of special interest to you, Fernando, compadre mio - well, actually I assume that you are a member of this Society!

...

Incidently Michael, just incidently; i am not a fencer

.
But then, let me tell you that eventually one of their moderators is a brilliant member of this Vickingsword forum

.
Fernando

Matchlock · 6th April 2009, 03:39 PM

Obviously this mysterious guy is extremely brilliant, Fernando!

Michael

cornelistromp · 6th April 2009, 08:27 PM

Katzbalger dimensions.

1. the "swiss Katzbalger".(CF. Schneider-Stuber 1980 page 66-75)
In the Northern part of Switzerland was an isolated development of the Katzbalger with mostly open S-shaped guards and blade length's from
approx. 85CM - 118CM. different grips and pommel shapes were used.

2. the "German Katzbalger".
Horizontal S- to 8 shaped guillons of twisted Iron often chiseled and ending in knob-terminals.the grip almost always terminates in a cap fitting down over it. Alternatively the spreading end of the grip is made of metal and no true pommel exists. (CF Norman the rapier and the small sword hilt 3)
the 2 edged blades measure 50cm-80cm with a width of 3.5cm - 4.5cm.
(CF Seifert 1968 p461)
the Ricasso, if there is one, has the same width as the cutting part of the blade and has short fullers parallel to the edge of the blade. the same type of blade can also be found on other 15thC and 16thC swords. ( CF Seitz 1965
Taf. IX; Schneider-Stuber 1980, 71, kat NR 98 (1500-1530) Kat Nr. 103 (from Zeughaus Zürich, 1520-1550, 128 Kat. Nr. 180 (Bodenseeraum 1520-1550).

RE: Blade thickness
there is no general rule for it, I have Katzbalgers with very thin flexible blades and Katzbalgers with stiffer thicker blades in my collection.
I think it depends on the fighting style of the period/area and of course of it's owner.

Best regards

Cornelis tromp

Gonzalo G · 10th April 2009, 07:43 AM

!Thank you very much, Michael and Cornelis!
My best regards

Gonzalo

Gonzalo G · 10th April 2009, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Incidently Michael, just incidently; i am not a fencer

.
But then, let me tell you that eventually one of their moderators is a brilliant member of this Vickingsword forum

.
Fernando

Actually, you don´t need to fence to be member of the forum. There are spaces for collectors and bladesmiths, also.
Regards

Gonzalo

Rick · 11th April 2009, 02:49 AM

I think we wander from the subj. matter, eh ?

fernando · 11th April 2009, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I think we wander from the subj. matter, eh ?

I wonder what could be wrong in (such) wandering

Jim McDougall · 11th April 2009, 04:04 PM

This thread is incredible!!! What outstanding material on katzbalgers, and what I think is most interesting is the indisputable role of these developed hilts in the origins of the Scottish baskethilt, one of my favorites of course.

Interesting asides on fencing.....I once fenced, a little.....but waaaayyy in my younger years. Interesting to know we have some representation of this fascinating art within our ranks here, and I would really like to have some serious discussion of the weapons used and their history. It has come up before but only briefly.
While the history of fencing theory goes, I believe, into the 16th century, the actual structured practice itself seems mostly later.

Getting back to the katzbalgers, interesting notes on determining the Swiss from German forms, and outstanding discussion gentlemen!!! I'm learning a lot here!!!

All the best,

' Z '

Matchlock · 11th April 2009, 05:36 PM

Thank you so much, Jim 'Z'

,

Your comment has inspired me to post some more historic sources of illustration on early Landsknecht swords.

Michael

Matchlock · 11th April 2009, 05:41 PM

More.

25th March 2009, 05:37 PM	#64
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	An Important Landsknecht Katzbalger Saber, Southern Germany, ca. 1545 Now that the auction is over I can post this fine piece which a friend of mine acquired for his collection with a little help from myself. The catalog description called it 'composite' but we think that the blade and hilt are contemporary. Also we do not think that the grip ever had a wire binding as no traces of it can be seen on the leather. Michael Attached Images

25th March 2009, 05:42 PM	#65
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	The rest. How you like it, Cornelis? Michael Attached Images

25th March 2009, 08:41 PM	#66
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A related basket hilted sword, ca. 1570, sold Bonhams London, ex-Visser Collection, 2007. Unfortunately the detailed images that I received from the department are out of focus. Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 25th March 2009 at 08:55 PM.

25th March 2009, 08:44 PM	#67
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	congratulations, excellent condition, I think it can be homo-gene 1540 cf ewart oakeshott, European arms&Armour p142. Attached Images

25th March 2009, 08:48 PM	#68
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	And a Landsknecht sword, ca. 1530-40, sold Bonhams London, 25 July 2007. Michael Attached Images

24th March 2009, 03:52 PM	#61
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Cornelis, Thank you for posting these - this is an important sample of a Katzbalger indeed!!! Actually, Saint Barbara is holding, additionally to the church tower, a martyr's palm, not a feather. Well, I am not really afraid of abuse of my pictures. On the other hand, as soon as I will have a digital camera I may protect them by a printed logo as well. Michael

24th March 2009, 05:56 PM	#63
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Cornelis, I must admit that I cannot clearly make out the figure on the reverse - could you please post a better image? Thank you. I have been collecting for almost 30 years and before puchasing my first piece I used to do intensive study. You will learn much more about me and my collection if care to you have a look at my earlier posts. More comment on your other swords soon. Best regards from Lower Bavaria, Michael

25th March 2009, 08:53 PM	#69
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	The rest. Attached Images

25th March 2009, 08:57 PM	#71
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Great, Cornelis! We can't wait to see them - thanks a lot! Michael

26th March 2009, 05:43 PM	#72
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thank you so much, Cornelis, good pictures indeed! Btw, I sent you a private email! Please do not forget to take a good image of the other figure on the brass grip of your Katzbalger (St. Paul?). Best, Michael

26th March 2009, 06:58 PM	#74
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Cornelis, I think that you were absolutely right in assigning that engraving to St. Paul as the figure holds a sword and Paul was decapitated. Congratulations again, you have both an impressive and important line of Katzbalgers! Best, Michael

27th March 2009, 04:30 PM	#75
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Various kinds of early 16th century weapons ... ... on a painting of the Resurrection by Simon Franck, ca. 1525, in the basilica of Aschaffenburg/Northern Bavaria. Michael Attached Images

27th March 2009, 05:02 PM	#76
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Details.

27th March 2009, 05:04 PM	#77
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Here they are. Attached Images

5th April 2009, 05:43 AM	#78
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Michael, since you have handled this swords, ¿can you please give me an idea of their weight and maximun thickness of the blade? I mean, I know there are variations, but wich are the most usual? Thank you very much in advance. I am very interested in the geometry and physical charcteristics of the swords in general. Regards Gonzalo

5th April 2009, 04:27 PM	#79
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Gonzalo, I should estimate the maximum thickness of a Katzbalger blade at 5-7 mm at the forte but can offer exact data of the two Katzbalgers at the German Historic Museum Berlin the pictures of which I re-attach below for convenience: 1. overall length 79 cm, length of blade 67.1 cm, maximum width of blade 4.5 cm, weight 1.3 kg 2. overall length 91 cm, length of blade 77.5 cm, maximum width of blade 3.9 cm, weight 1.47 kg And the data of the hand and a half sword are: overall length 1.36 m, length of blade 1.05 m, maximum width of blade 4.9 cm, weight 2.19 kg. Best regards, Michael Attached Images

5th April 2009, 04:45 PM	#80
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Army Museum Stockholm From Kisak's thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9653 I think that the blade of the Katzbalger is a later addition as almost all original Katzbalger blades characteristically have short fullers at the forte. The pommel and quillons show Italian influence and are datable to the 1530's, the bone grip and brass band are replacements. The hand and a half estoc is datable to ca. 1525-30, the pommel and quillons retaining much of their originally blued surface as well as their characteristic roped decoration; the two iron rings on the grip are later additions. Tanks again, Kisak! Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 5th April 2009 at 06:28 PM.

6th April 2009, 03:39 PM	#82
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Obviously this mysterious guy is extremely brilliant, Fernando! Michael

6th April 2009, 08:27 PM	#83
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	Katzbalger dimensions. 1. the "swiss Katzbalger".(CF. Schneider-Stuber 1980 page 66-75) In the Northern part of Switzerland was an isolated development of the Katzbalger with mostly open S-shaped guards and blade length's from approx. 85CM - 118CM. different grips and pommel shapes were used. 2. the "German Katzbalger". Horizontal S- to 8 shaped guillons of twisted Iron often chiseled and ending in knob-terminals.the grip almost always terminates in a cap fitting down over it. Alternatively the spreading end of the grip is made of metal and no true pommel exists. (CF Norman the rapier and the small sword hilt 3) the 2 edged blades measure 50cm-80cm with a width of 3.5cm - 4.5cm. (CF Seifert 1968 p461) the Ricasso, if there is one, has the same width as the cutting part of the blade and has short fullers parallel to the edge of the blade. the same type of blade can also be found on other 15thC and 16thC swords. ( CF Seitz 1965 Taf. IX; Schneider-Stuber 1980, 71, kat NR 98 (1500-1530) Kat Nr. 103 (from Zeughaus Zürich, 1520-1550, 128 Kat. Nr. 180 (Bodenseeraum 1520-1550). RE: Blade thickness there is no general rule for it, I have Katzbalgers with very thin flexible blades and Katzbalgers with stiffer thicker blades in my collection. I think it depends on the fighting style of the period/area and of course of it's owner. Best regards Cornelis tromp

10th April 2009, 07:43 AM	#84
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	!Thank you very much, Michael and Cornelis! My best regards Gonzalo

11th April 2009, 02:49 AM	#86
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	I think we wander from the subj. matter, eh ?

11th April 2009, 04:04 PM	#88
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	This thread is incredible!!! What outstanding material on katzbalgers, and what I think is most interesting is the indisputable role of these developed hilts in the origins of the Scottish baskethilt, one of my favorites of course. Interesting asides on fencing.....I once fenced, a little.....but waaaayyy in my younger years. Interesting to know we have some representation of this fascinating art within our ranks here, and I would really like to have some serious discussion of the weapons used and their history. It has come up before but only briefly. While the history of fencing theory goes, I believe, into the 16th century, the actual structured practice itself seems mostly later. Getting back to the katzbalgers, interesting notes on determining the Swiss from German forms, and outstanding discussion gentlemen!!! I'm learning a lot here!!! All the best, ' Z '

11th April 2009, 05:36 PM	#89
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	More sources of illustration Thank you so much, Jim 'Z', Your comment has inspired me to post some more historic sources of illustration on early Landsknecht swords. Michael Attached Images

11th April 2009, 05:41 PM	#90
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	More. Attached Images