Indian Swords with downward curving blades - Page 3

Miguel · 31st December 2015, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Miguel,

I think I have something for you.
Robert Elgood: Hindu Arms and Ritual, page 86, illustrations 8.21, 8.22 and 8.23.
Elgood writes that the pictures are from the Vitthala temple, Hampi early 16th century, and he adds 'it is clear that this kind of sword was in common use over a large part of southern India untill at least the mid-sixteenth century'.
Unfortunately he does not explain why these blades went out of use in the south.

Jens

Hi Jens,
Thank you very much for the info, unfortunately I do not have that particular book by Elgood but it seems I must get one for the info it contains. In the meantime I will see what I can find on the net re the pictures from the Vitthala temple. I cant thank you enough for taking the time out to provide me with useful info.

Wishing you a Happy New Year
Kind Regards
Miguel

Jens Nordlunde · 7th January 2016, 04:11 PM

Miguel,

I have found something more, which I find interesting for your research.
In Four Centuries of Rajput Painting. Mewar, Marwar and Dhundhar. Skira 2009. Its from a very big private collection of Indian miniatures.
The author, Vicky Ducrot, and one of the owners og the collection, explains who the Rajputs are/were and from where they came, and on page 17 it says.

"In the twelfth century the Rajputs were defeated by the armies of Muslim invaders, first Arabs, later Turks and Afghans, and retreated from the Hindusthan plains, taking refuge in wilder regions: the deserts and steppes of Rajasthan, the jungles of Bundelkand (Central India), and the mountain ranges of northern Punjab."

Miguel · 7th January 2016, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Miguel,

I have found something more, which I find interesting for your research.
In Four Centuries of Rajput Painting. Mewar, Marwar and Dhundhar. Skira 2009. Its from a very big private collection of Indian miniatures.
The author, Vicky Ducrot, and one of the owners og the collection, explains who the Rajputs are/were and from where they came, and on page 17 it says.

"In the twelfth century the Rajputs were defeated by the armies of Muslim invaders, first Arabs, later Turks and Afghans, and retreated from the Hindusthan plains, taking refuge in wilder regions: the deserts and steppes of Rajasthan, the jungles of Bundelkand (Central India), and the mountain ranges of northern Punjab."

Hi Jens,

Much obliged for the info. I am still struggling with the origin of the Coorgs but have discovered an interesting paragraph in my Oxford history of India of which I will let you know after I have compared it with other information on this subject. I received my copy of Elgoods Hindu Arms and and Ritual together with a copy of his study of the weapons in the Jaipur armoury today so am in for much enjoyable and interesting reading.
Kind regards
Miguel

ariel · 7th January 2016, 10:03 PM

Buddy, you are for a wild ride! :-)))

These books are indispensable sources of info for anybody interested in Indian weapons. Take a month-long vacation to read them and enjoy!

Jens Nordlunde · 7th January 2016, 10:25 PM

Miguel,

Ariel is right, but maybe you wont need a month.
Somewhere I have something about the origin of the Corgs - I will have to think - althought I know that I will have a head ache afterwards :-).

This link should give you a late backgroung knowledge http://muralirvarma.blogspot.ch/2010...kka-veera.html

Miguel · 11th January 2016, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Buddy, you are for a wild ride! :-)))

These books are indispensable sources of info for anybody interested in Indian weapons. Take a month-long vacation to read them and enjoy!

Thanks Ariel. I wish.

Miguel · 12th January 2016, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Miguel,

Ariel is right, but maybe you wont need a month.
Somewhere I have something about the origin of the Corgs - I will have to think - althought I know that I will have a head ache afterwards :-).

This link should give you a late backgroung knowledge http://muralirvarma.blogspot.ch/2010...kka-veera.html

Hi Jens, My apologies for the delay of this reply but I have been pretty busy with the family, I tried on two occasions, yesterday, from my iPad and managed to send a short reply to ariel but the system would not send my reply to you and kept telling me that I was not logged in so after logging in twice and getting nowhere I left it until now so I could reply from my laptop.

Thank you very much for the link all info helps, I hope you can turn something up on the origin as I am struggling and like you am sure that I will also suffer a headache, probably more than one. There seems to be information about them from around the 18th C but not a lot in earlier times. I am looking, at the moment, at the period embracing the 1st to the 7th C to see if I can turn up a clue as to where the down curved swords originated. It has been confirmed that a thriving trade between the peninsular and Rome and the West was established by The 1st C ad so I am wondering if weapons of this type could have been introduced by this route which means investigating which countries were trading with the South at this time etc so an awful lot of work to be done just on this one area. There seems to be quite a lot of theories and hypotheses about the origin of the Coorgs but no actual proof but I am not giving up as I am finding it most interesting. Incidentally during my searching I have come across both Kora and Ayda Katti with Khandar hilts which may point to their use, in later times, by either the Rajput or the Marathas or both?
Best regards
Miguel

ariel · 12th January 2016, 04:21 PM

Miguel,

Downcurved sword were plentiful among the Central Asian nomads.
Rawson ( and then Pant and Elgood) show similar forms in India even B.C.
Adya Katti was supposed to reflect Arab influence from Omani immigrants.

Thus, it could have been purely indigenous form of Indian weaponry with some contribution from Northern invaders at different times. Figuring out what is what in each particular case might be impossible. Was, for example, Mughal Sosun Patta in any way related to the Indian one? Or was it a "copy" of the Ottoman Yataghan? Or a happy marriage of both?

Jens Nordlunde · 12th January 2016, 05:06 PM

Miguel,

Tod, James:Annals and Antiquities of Rajasthan, vol. I-II.Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers, 2001 reprint.

In the first volume Tod writes about several, very early, Scytic invasions, and they seem to have been all over India.

Ariel is of course right. It may be impossible to prove anything - but it is worth a try :-).
It is always nice to winn, but should you lose you must remember, that you have learned a lot walking this stony path :-) - and learning is what it is all about. So which way it goes, you will always come out as a winner.

Jens Nordlunde · 13th January 2016, 03:55 PM

Miguel,

Maybe this link will help you further
http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbo...1000689927/337

Miguel · 15th January 2016, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Miguel,

Downcurved sword were plentiful among the Central Asian nomads.
Rawson ( and then Pant and Elgood) show similar forms in India even B.C.
Adya Katti was supposed to reflect Arab influence from Omani immigrants.

Thus, it could have been purely indigenous form of Indian weaponry with some contribution from Northern invaders at different times. Figuring out what is what in each particular case might be impossible. Was, for example, Mughal Sosun Patta in any way related to the Indian one? Or was it a "copy" of the Ottoman Yataghan? Or a happy marriage of both?

Hi Ariel, Thanks for your reply. I think you are probably right and that it may be impossible, I had reached this conclusion myself but at the same time you never know and as I am enjoying learning things I never knew about the history of India I will keep searching for a while longer. Thank you for your tip re Arab influence which again I did not know. Learning all the time, I am really glad that I was able to join this forum.
Thanks again.
Miguel

Miguel · 15th January 2016, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Miguel,

Tod, James:Annals and Antiquities of Rajasthan, vol. I-II.Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers, 2001 reprint.

In the first volume Tod writes about several, very early, Scytic invasions, and they seem to have been all over India.

Ariel is of course right. It may be impossible to prove anything - but it is worth a try :-).
It is always nice to winn, but should you lose you must remember, that you have learned a lot walking this stony path :-) - and learning is what it is all about. So which way it goes, you will always come out as a winner.

Hi Jens,

You are quite correct and I really appreciate the information, help and encouragement you have given me, also I would like to thank you for starting me down this path as it is proving very interesting to me.
Best regards
Miguel

Jens Nordlunde · 15th January 2016, 05:37 PM

Miguel,

This link may be of interest to you http://indiaopines.com/coorg-history/

If I remember correctly there were three or four clans ruling Coorg before the Sesodia clan (the last ruling clan) came to power.
The Sesodia clan did not always have this name, as they ad changed name four or five time over the centuries, so you will need to find their roots and follow them. Another thing you will need is to chase the other ruling clans, to see from where they origin.
If you drop the Sunday afternoon tea, you should have plenty of time :-). No, quite honestly, this kind of search does take a very long time, and it is sometims quite stony, but it pays off with all the things you learn on the way.

I too am researching the Coorg history, but something quite different from what you are doing, so now and again I find thngs which may be of interest to you.

Miguel · 17th January 2016, 04:16 PM

Hi Jens,

Thanks again, a most interesting link. I am beginning to think that there may be something in the Greek connection and also the Caucasian connection although some scholars advise that these connections should be discounted. I wish you luck with your reseach and perhaps I may turn something up with mine.
Best regards
Miguel

7th January 2016, 04:11 PM	#62
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Miguel, I have found something more, which I find interesting for your research. In Four Centuries of Rajput Painting. Mewar, Marwar and Dhundhar. Skira 2009. Its from a very big private collection of Indian miniatures. The author, Vicky Ducrot, and one of the owners og the collection, explains who the Rajputs are/were and from where they came, and on page 17 it says. "In the twelfth century the Rajputs were defeated by the armies of Muslim invaders, first Arabs, later Turks and Afghans, and retreated from the Hindusthan plains, taking refuge in wilder regions: the deserts and steppes of Rajasthan, the jungles of Bundelkand (Central India), and the mountain ranges of northern Punjab." Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 7th January 2016 at 07:13 PM.

7th January 2016, 10:25 PM	#65
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Miguel, Ariel is right, but maybe you wont need a month. Somewhere I have something about the origin of the Corgs - I will have to think - althought I know that I will have a head ache afterwards :-). This link should give you a late backgroung knowledge http://muralirvarma.blogspot.ch/2010...kka-veera.html Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 7th January 2016 at 10:36 PM.

7th January 2016, 10:03 PM	#64
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Buddy, you are for a wild ride! :-))) These books are indispensable sources of info for anybody interested in Indian weapons. Take a month-long vacation to read them and enjoy!

12th January 2016, 04:21 PM	#68
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Miguel, Downcurved sword were plentiful among the Central Asian nomads. Rawson ( and then Pant and Elgood) show similar forms in India even B.C. Adya Katti was supposed to reflect Arab influence from Omani immigrants. Thus, it could have been purely indigenous form of Indian weaponry with some contribution from Northern invaders at different times. Figuring out what is what in each particular case might be impossible. Was, for example, Mughal Sosun Patta in any way related to the Indian one? Or was it a "copy" of the Ottoman Yataghan? Or a happy marriage of both?

12th January 2016, 05:06 PM	#69
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Miguel, Tod, James:Annals and Antiquities of Rajasthan, vol. I-II.Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers, 2001 reprint. In the first volume Tod writes about several, very early, Scytic invasions, and they seem to have been all over India. Ariel is of course right. It may be impossible to prove anything - but it is worth a try :-). It is always nice to winn, but should you lose you must remember, that you have learned a lot walking this stony path :-) - and learning is what it is all about. So which way it goes, you will always come out as a winner.

13th January 2016, 03:55 PM	#70
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Miguel, Maybe this link will help you further http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbo...1000689927/337

15th January 2016, 05:37 PM	#73
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Miguel, This link may be of interest to you http://indiaopines.com/coorg-history/ If I remember correctly there were three or four clans ruling Coorg before the Sesodia clan (the last ruling clan) came to power. The Sesodia clan did not always have this name, as they ad changed name four or five time over the centuries, so you will need to find their roots and follow them. Another thing you will need is to chase the other ruling clans, to see from where they origin. If you drop the Sunday afternoon tea, you should have plenty of time :-). No, quite honestly, this kind of search does take a very long time, and it is sometims quite stony, but it pays off with all the things you learn on the way. I too am researching the Coorg history, but something quite different from what you are doing, so now and again I find thngs which may be of interest to you.

17th January 2016, 04:16 PM	#74
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Hi Jens, Thanks again, a most interesting link. I am beginning to think that there may be something in the Greek connection and also the Caucasian connection although some scholars advise that these connections should be discounted. I wish you luck with your reseach and perhaps I may turn something up with mine. Best regards Miguel