Markings on a Takouba-mounted European Backsword

[fernando]

Yes ... Sir

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Interesting discussion. However I think it's important to keep in mind two things.

1. The markings on the forte plates was certainly done locally, it is engraved, not stamped as is typical and the mount was done within Africa. The symbols are typical and similar can be seen in the sword attached (formerly in my collection).

2. The blade marks are stamped deeply. I have zero doubts the blade stamps were done in Europe, it is my understanding these would be stamped while the blade as hot. Doing this after the blade left Europe would destroy the temper.

Engraving over stamping is quite typical when you see local additions to older blades within the context of takouba. Often fairly lightly scratched, or in the case of forte plates like this, a bit deeper. The difference to European stamps is quite clear when you handle these in person.

As for the meaning of the letters, I can't claim a better idea than any of the others posited here, however to my eyes the As are clearly Ms and one is badly stamped. I would doubt a clear meaning will ever be forthcoming from this inscription but that in do way hurts the appeal of this honest, hard working and quite old sword. I also favor a 17th century dating for this blade, likely originally a schiavona.

Iain, these are superb pictures and the provenance looks sound etc.To my eye the locally done marks appear to be scratched on... whilst European strike marks are deeper indicating "done when hot". Clearly the other parts including the often large wrap or Adabel, African hilt and scabbard are tribally decorated ...with exceptions; where massive, often whole blade European design has been done by the supplier such as on Ethiopian swords commissioned often in Solingen...probably complete with hilts...

There are a lot of similarities with these East West African weapons...My problem is that on the first page typically we have about six Ethiopian, Hausa Tuareg variants...

For Forum Panel consideration...Would it be better ...do you think... to have all these Atlantic to Red Sea swords on the same big thread so that cross referencing can be simple and since much of the detail is interrelated through all the different alphabet and hieroglyph additions, local blade smith marks and origins of European species etc ? ... There are such similarities that are so easily missed when the subject is fractured all over the different pages on Ethnographic ...One mega thread would solve this in an instant... and research, study and informed detail would be transformed ...

Another way to do it would be a new thread ...A comparison of Red Sea to Atlantic weapons ...Ethiopian, Tuareg, Berber, Hausa Ashanti....( I leave it to Forum how this may be worded )

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[blue lander]

I'm not sure if that last character is a poorly stamped A or M, but up close it looks like it might be something else altogether.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by blue lander

I'm not sure if that last character is a poorly stamped A or M, but up close it looks like it might be something else altogether.

I think it's an M but the stamp wasn't fully flat. Could be wrong.

[blue lander]

I'm still cleaning the pommel off but so far it looks a lot like the Pommel on the one Ian posted above

[Iain]

Originally Posted by blue lander

I'm still cleaning the pommel off but so far it looks a lot like the Pommel on the one Ian posted above

Yes, its a very standard design and one I think of as solidly 19th century to best of what we know.

It's defined by the peaked mid ridge, often the use of a small bronze cap and engraved lateral plate.

A transition from the oldest rounded pommels.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Are there any examples of the type of stamp used by European and African Smiths? ....It occurred to me that the Europeans used stamps but the African style looks like one chisel and mallet combination only...not stamps...and or...that African work was often scratched on. not stamped. It also looks like European letters had the small tails at the ends of uprights but African capitals did not. Am I right in thinking that European work was stamped whilst the blade was hot...and not a method used by African smiths...resulting in mis strikes and less depth to the strike??

[Tordenskiold1721]

The blade could also be from a Dussack Ca 1570/80.

[blue lander]

I should mention the upper half of this sword is double edged. This might be an alteration made in Africa but it seems to me it was made this way.

Another unusual feature is the fuller at the bottom of the ricosso. I don't recall seeing any other backswords with a fuller there.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The best way to understand the swords in the Sahel and environs is to see http://iainnorman.com/

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

The best way to understand the swords in the Sahel and environs is to see http://iainnorman.com/

Well done Ibrahiim!! Perfect link to Iain's site, and the terrific insight into the weapons and culture of the Tuareg's and surrounding tribal groups.
Anyone collecting or interested in these arms definitely needs to read these detailed and observant essays and notes.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by blue lander

I should mention the upper half of this sword is double edged. This might be an alteration made in Africa but it seems to me it was made this way.

Another unusual feature is the fuller at the bottom of the ricosso. I don't recall seeing any other backswords with a fuller there.

I would be pretty confident the second edge was done locally. I've seen this on other backsword blades in takouba mounts.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Are there any examples of the type of stamp used by European and African Smiths? ....It occurred to me that the Europeans used stamps but the African style looks like one chisel and mallet combination only...not stamps...and or...that African work was often scratched on. not stamped. It also looks like European letters had the small tails at the ends of uprights but African capitals did not. Am I right in thinking that European work was stamped whilst the blade was hot...and not a method used by African smiths...resulting in mis strikes and less depth to the strike??

The style of letters in use in European stamps depends entirely on region, date, etc. There's no standard rule about "tails".

Missed strikes and depth are down to how much care, attention and force is being used. Keep in mind the sort of blade we are looking at here is of a munitions standard, widely produced and exported for a range of types as nicely illustrated by Tordenskiold1721. These were made in bulk in forges using water powered trip hammers, grinding wheels etc. and it was very much an industry turning out a very high volume of product.

While it is my understanding that certain European proof marks were stamped cold, usually blade stamps of the age we are looking at were applied hot.

Personally I think that some stamps were used in an African context due to the appearance of certain marks on blades that are of inferior quality and likely to be locally made. If you want to browse http://takouba.org/catalog/index.php...moon-stamps/24 you'll find plenty of material in terms of comparing many swords with the same motif but some are obviously done in Europe and others in an African context.

I haven't done an exhaustive comparison of the details myself as my interests have generally been on other aspects. But to put it simply, I think some stamps, perhaps even sourced from Europe were around in local blade making centers in Africa like Sokoto, Kano etc. Outside of that engraving is more common and you will see this (again if we use the half moons as an example) quite often being used to imitate actual stamps.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Well done Ibrahiim!! Perfect link to Iain's site, and the terrific insight into the weapons and culture of the Tuareg's and surrounding tribal groups.
Anyone collecting or interested in these arms definitely needs to read these detailed and observant essays and notes.

I'm flattered folks, but please keep in my what you find on that link are only one person's opinion.

[blue lander]

Originally Posted by Iain

I would be pretty confident the second edge was done locally. I've seen this on other backsword blades in takouba mounts.

In your experience, with other converted backswords are they reshaped all the way down to the ricasso or have you seen others that are double edge for just the top half of the blade?

The reason I'm curious is that the double edge part of the blade has a nice symmetrical oval cross section. If it was a conversion I'd expect the shape to still look like a backsword someone filed the spine off of rather than a properly shaped double edged sword.

Also, I've seen a couple schiavona backswords that are double sided for the upper 1/4th of the blade. I haven't seen one 1/2 double sided, though.

For instance,

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...78&postcount=9

[Iain]

Originally Posted by blue lander

In your experience, with other converted backswords are they reshaped all the way down to the ricasso or have you seen others that are double edge for just the top half of the blade?

The reason I'm curious is that the double edge part of the blade has a nice symmetrical oval cross section. If it was a conversion I'd expect the shape to still look like a backsword someone filed the spine off of rather than a properly shaped double edged sword.

Also, I've seen a couple schiavona backswords that are double sided for the upper 1/4th of the blade. I haven't seen one 1/2 double sided, though.

For instance,

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...78&postcount=9

There's always a chance of a European blade having been made this way. The one's I've handled typically have the last 1/2 to 1/3 sharpened on the upper side.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Iain

I'm flattered folks, but please keep in my what you find on that link are only one person's opinion.

True, but your essays happen to be well supported, with observations based on a good amount of actual items, and referencing period sources like Barth. There is so little information out there that I have printed the takouba.org database and together with your articles consider these print outs the best "book" on the subject of Sahel weapons thus far.

Thank you,
Teodor

[Iain]

Originally Posted by TVV

True, but your essays happen to be well supported, with observations based on a good amount of actual items, and referencing period sources like Barth. There is so little information out there that I have printed the takouba.org database and together with your articles consider these print outs the best "book" on the subject of Sahel weapons thus far.

Thank you,
Teodor

Thanks Teodor,

There are times I struggle to write due to a lack of inspiration and ideas. This thread is a bright spot in what is often a figurative desert with most extant examples being modern. It's really due to members like blue lander being willing to share their examples that I've written anything at all. For me the heart of weapons study will always be seeing as many examples as possible. Very little attention was devoted by previous researchers to the overall story of the takouba and its form, with more concern being paid to the European blade aspect or more ethnographic interests in leather work, current usage etc. All very valid and helpful areas of study but my passion has always been and still is the early moments of the takouba, where it came from, what the relation to other sword forms is, how it came to be an isolated and relatively preserved over time. Without folks like yourself to encourage me, I'd be tempted at times to give up and figure there's not much left to uncover. Thankfully this forum is a major aid in stimulating discussion and driving my passion forward. I'm truly grateful my attempts to shine a light on this obscure topic have been helpful.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... I have to say that an awful lot of stuff has been left somewhat stranded on the other forum including very important posts from members ...I don't disagree with posting on European ...quite the reverse... but would it not be better having the whole thread please?

Merging threads is an easy thing when both were started in the same forum; not so linear when each one is located in different forum sections, as one will vanish to the eyes of members who posted there. As eventually the item in discussion has both Ethno and European roots, there is the option to chose in which forum merged threads will be placed.
Perhaps is best that the threads author agrees with this merging. What do you say, blue lander ?

... and by the way, this merging exercises are not so often done; i hope this one works properly

[blue lander]

Yup, I agree one thread makes more sense

[fernando]

Done.