Sliding weights - Page 3

Ian · 9th July 2005, 08:04 PM

Kirrill:

I have taken this way beyond my knowledge or comfort zone and cannot address your latest comments.

Much of what I have presented comes from the book that I referenced above by Robert Kemp Adair. He is presently Sterling Professor Emeritus of Physics at Yale University. You can find his contact information at http://www.yale.edu and using the search function for people on the home page.

Much of what you disagree with is cited in his book, including the comment that the resonant frequency of a baseball bat is related to its length and the thickness of the handle. He also points at that the centers of gravity, percussion and inertia are not the same and occur at different points along the length of a baseball bat.

BTW, Adair's book is available on the web for $1.00 plus shipping through this site http://www.abebooks.com

Ian.

Jens Nordlunde · 17th October 2005, 03:08 PM

In ‘The Indian Antiquary’, August 1873, page 217, W.F.Sinclair writes:

A common weapon among Hindustanis and Musalmans is a long steel rod with three or four small rings sliding on it. These, slipping forward as the weapon descends, add force to the blow, which is far more severe than might be supposed from the slender appearance of the weapon. It is also a good guard against sword-cuts.

Andrew · 17th October 2005, 03:14 PM

Hi Jens.

Interesting. Have you ever seen such a weapon?

How was your trip?

Best,
A

Jens Nordlunde · 17th October 2005, 03:54 PM

Hi Andrew,

I am not sure, as I seem vaguely to remember such a weapon. If I have seen one, it is very long ago, but from the description I think it must be a mace without a head, only with a rather long and slender haft with sliding weights. The weapon Sinclair describes is interesting, but if they made such a weapon, why not a mace with sliding weights?

The trip was terrific, we saw the reserves at V&A, but it is with time like with fire, it is a good servant but a brutal master. When we arrived we had hours ahead of us, but suddenly the time was running out fast. We did however see a lot of things, amongst other the Kitchener collection, which is fantastic. We met Robert Elgood and Jonathan Barrett, but again, the time – rather frustrating I must say. I hope to see them again next year when we go to England once more.

At the V&A I did notice something about some weapons from Kutch, and will write about it later.

Oh yes, I forgot to mention, how can a trip like that not be a success, when you have the best guide of all

.

Best

Jens

kronckew · 20th July 2016, 04:51 PM

this thread was linked to in another thread today about a blade with sliding balls incorporated.

as i read this thread (post 31) there appeared a rapier with a sliding section hailed as a sliding weight sword example. this is incorrect as it was actually created to solve a completely different problem.

as rapiers became fashionable, they increased in length to almost silly proportions.m some wielders went accompanied by a servant that would help them draw and re-sheath the blade as needed.

numbers of gentlemen carrying these long swords were quite a tripping hazard and cumbersome to manoeuvrer in crowds, and could actually provoke duels. laws were passed to limit blade lengths. i recall london set a maximum BLADE length of 40 inches.

guards at the city gates would actually measure blades, and if found too long the owner could be fined and/or his blade snapped off to make it fit the regs.

this sword posted earlier was a design to circumvent the law, as it's long blade was slid back to allow it to be sheathed without requiring a servant while also becoming a regulation blade length with a long grip to bypass the regs - which did not specify an overall length.

if drawn in anger, the blade was slid out and locked in place rather them sliding in and out freely.

overly long rapiers with thrusting only type blades were an affectation of society that died out fairly quickly - that's why so few examples exist. they didn't really work well in a duel, gentlemanly rules of engagement which covered the flaws thankfully were rarely carried over to military blades that stuck to a more practical carry & use length suitable for the no rules melee of hand to hand desperate combat.

Jens Nordlunde · 20th July 2016, 05:43 PM

Interesting discussions we had in the good ol' days

.

kronckew · 20th July 2016, 05:45 PM

luckily we keep on learning instead of stagnating.

Jim McDougall · 20th July 2016, 06:56 PM

Excellent Kronckew!!! Indeed, we DO keep learning, and mostly because of those here who contribute and share the remarkable knowledge they hold in their specialized fields. Also, that members like yourself revive old threads and topics like this one, bringing into them new evidence or simply new avenues of research on them.
Jens, we did have amazing discussions back in those days, and it always further amazes me at how far we have all grown because of them.

During these earlier discussions, it seems that the affectation of the 'pearls' in blade channels was included and found to have been from a Persian decorative innovation on blades. It was at some point transmitted to both Indian and Chinese cultural spheres, where they were popularized in recognized degree.

I do recall in rapier discussions several years ago the case of these 'adjustable' blades was brought up and as noted the blade length had become a 'legal' dilemma in Spain and I believe others. I believe this was also the basis for the folding knives well known as 'navaja'

It was interesting here to see discussions involving members who are sorely missed as well who have been long absent, and the depth of the discourse which brought examples, cases and empirical data to light versus some of the fascinating 'lore'.

Well done, thank you!

ariel · 21st July 2016, 03:06 AM

Good old days.....
When the water was wetter and the girls prettier....

kronckew · 21st July 2016, 10:26 AM

the trouble with water is that it is wet. if the man upstairs had wanted us to get wet he would have given us fins. i spent a few decades of my life ensuring i did not have to actually swim in the stuff by putting a large ship underneath me to separate myself from it. even our closets relatives, gorillas and chimps, cover themselves with leaves when it rains.

i haven't drunk water in years. i drink only a couple beers a year & don't touch the hard stuff. a glass of port on xmas. i do drink coffee and vast quantities of iced sweet tea with lemon or peach flavouring. OK, that all has water as an ingredient but i can ignore it. the occasional shower is unavoidable.

all women are beautiful. some more than others. i find the range of really beautiful women has expanded as i get older.

Roland_M · 21st July 2016, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Do we have one on the forum with an analytic mathematical brain

Really no mathematical brain but you can calculate either the kinetic energy (ekin= 0.5m*v^2) or the momentum (p=m*v).

In the first formula the weight of the blade is imho underrepresented.

It is a similar thing if one discuss about the effect of a bullet, not very easy to answer!

Roland

kronckew · 21st July 2016, 01:05 PM

we should be using angular (rotational) momentum, the blades COP and the length from the COP (varies with weight movement) to the centrum (elbow or shoulder? depends on how you are cutting). reducing the radius increases the velocity but maintains angular momentum, which doesn't change unless acted on by an outside force.
================================================

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st July 2016, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

we should be using angular (rotational) momentum, the blades COP and the length from the COP (varies with weight movement) to the centrum (elbow or shoulder? depends on how you are cutting). reducing the radius increases the velocity but maintains angular momentum, which doesn't change unless acted on by an outside force.
================================================

That is all well and good kronckew but the trials on the sliding weight sword somewhere in the North of England in the early 19thC came to a very abrupt conclusion; The sword was hollow and half filled with Mercury. The proving ground was on a small bridge over a brisk fast flowing stream...It is said that the swordsman was the local blacksmith who on giving the test weapon a hefty swing was instantly off balanced, the great sword throwing him over the parapet of the bridge into the water below.

Roland_M · 21st July 2016, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

That is all well and good kronckew but the trials on the sliding weight sword somewhere in the North of England in the early 19thC came to a very abrupt conclusion; The sword was hollow and half filled with Mercury. The proving ground was on a small bridge over a brisk fast flowing stream...It is said that the swordsman was the local blacksmith who on giving the test weapon a hefty swing was instantly off balanced, the great sword throwing him over the parapet of the bridge into the water below.

That is the sliding weight? A movable weight inside the blade to increase the momentum of lightweight blades? From the fighting point of view, that is ridiculous.

The strongest man in the world in the early 20th century filled his barbell with mercury. But his aim was to make the barbell unusable for other strong man's. He demonstrated this often on stage in a competition, but it was just a cheap trick.

Roland

fernando · 21st July 2016, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

... as rapiers became fashionable, they increased in length to almost silly proportions.m some wielders went accompanied by a servant that would help them draw and re-sheath the blade as needed....

I am truly amazed with such resource ... a sword drawing servant; would never dream of it. Do you racall the source where you read such passage, Wayne ?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st July 2016, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

That is the sliding weight? A movable weight inside the blade to increase the momentum of lightweight blades? From the fighting point of view, that is ridiculous.

The strongest man in the world in the early 20th century filled his barbell with mercury. But his aim was to make the barbell unusable for other strong man's. He demonstrated this often on stage in a competition, but it was just a cheap trick.

Roland

Yes it is ridiculous, however, I bumped into a peculiar reference in the Met Museum of Art archives about hollow swords and it appears that swords were actually made by "The Hollow Sword Blade Company" with a hollow blade filled with mercury so that the weight on thrusting was transferred down the blade to the tip therefor giving extra weight to the momentum...

To source this reference simply tap into web search Swords From The Dresden Armoury from which I Quote "One learns, for example, of the Hollow Sword Blade Company which was chartered for the professed purpose of making hollow swords with running mercury inclosed to gravitate to the point when a blow was struck and so increase the weight and momentum of the stroke". Unquote. Or follow the link http://www.jstor.org/stable/3255703?...n_tab_contents

kronckew · 21st July 2016, 05:41 PM

there is something called the 'free surface effect' that has serious influences on stability. basically of you have a wide square shape ship, it can be very stable about it's centre of gravity. a push down on one side and the hull weight on the other side keeps it from tipping. add just a bit of water (or mercury) and the slightest movement can cause the fluid to abruptly and uncontrollably run to the lower side, overbalancing the ship and causing a permanent list. it's why ships have longitudinal as well as transverse bulkheads (partitions) to ameliorate the sloshing. and you can pump from one side to the other to balance the ship if one side has more fluid than another.

fernando, don't have anything european without re-researching, but i did have a asian drawing where chinese soldiers with overly long anti-equine swords were paired up to draw each others sabres more quickly. it did mention the individual could pull the blade out in stages by grasping the blade (carefully) part way each time he pulled out a bit. not the best way if set upon suddenly, but i guess OK for a more controlled and traditional gentlemanly duel, tho in the cases seconds (or servants) were in attendance to assist anyway. i think it's posted here somewhere. asuspect i was thinking about a shakespearian passage where one of the principals called out to his servant to hand him his rapier which was discussed on another forum.

aha! found a small version of the drawing for unscabbarding miao dao.

17th October 2005, 03:54 PM	#64
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Andrew, I am not sure, as I seem vaguely to remember such a weapon. If I have seen one, it is very long ago, but from the description I think it must be a mace without a head, only with a rather long and slender haft with sliding weights. The weapon Sinclair describes is interesting, but if they made such a weapon, why not a mace with sliding weights? The trip was terrific, we saw the reserves at V&A, but it is with time like with fire, it is a good servant but a brutal master. When we arrived we had hours ahead of us, but suddenly the time was running out fast. We did however see a lot of things, amongst other the Kitchener collection, which is fantastic. We met Robert Elgood and Jonathan Barrett, but again, the time – rather frustrating I must say. I hope to see them again next year when we go to England once more. At the V&A I did notice something about some weapons from Kutch, and will write about it later. Oh yes, I forgot to mention, how can a trip like that not be a success, when you have the best guide of all. Best Jens Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 17th October 2005 at 04:33 PM.

21st July 2016, 01:05 PM	#72
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	we should be using angular (rotational) momentum, the blades COP and the length from the COP (varies with weight movement) to the centrum (elbow or shoulder? depends on how you are cutting). reducing the radius increases the velocity but maintains angular momentum, which doesn't change unless acted on by an outside force. ================================================ Attached Images

21st July 2016, 05:41 PM	#77
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	there is something called the 'free surface effect' that has serious influences on stability. basically of you have a wide square shape ship, it can be very stable about it's centre of gravity. a push down on one side and the hull weight on the other side keeps it from tipping. add just a bit of water (or mercury) and the slightest movement can cause the fluid to abruptly and uncontrollably run to the lower side, overbalancing the ship and causing a permanent list. it's why ships have longitudinal as well as transverse bulkheads (partitions) to ameliorate the sloshing. and you can pump from one side to the other to balance the ship if one side has more fluid than another. fernando, don't have anything european without re-researching, but i did have a asian drawing where chinese soldiers with overly long anti-equine swords were paired up to draw each others sabres more quickly. it did mention the individual could pull the blade out in stages by grasping the blade (carefully) part way each time he pulled out a bit. not the best way if set upon suddenly, but i guess OK for a more controlled and traditional gentlemanly duel, tho in the cases seconds (or servants) were in attendance to assist anyway. i think it's posted here somewhere. asuspect i was thinking about a shakespearian passage where one of the principals called out to his servant to hand him his rapier which was discussed on another forum. aha! found a small version of the drawing for unscabbarding miao dao. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 21st July 2016 at 06:35 PM.

9th July 2005, 08:04 PM	#61
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Kirrill: I have taken this way beyond my knowledge or comfort zone and cannot address your latest comments. Much of what I have presented comes from the book that I referenced above by Robert Kemp Adair. He is presently Sterling Professor Emeritus of Physics at Yale University. You can find his contact information at http://www.yale.edu and using the search function for people on the home page. Much of what you disagree with is cited in his book, including the comment that the resonant frequency of a baseball bat is related to its length and the thickness of the handle. He also points at that the centers of gravity, percussion and inertia are not the same and occur at different points along the length of a baseball bat. BTW, Adair's book is available on the web for $1.00 plus shipping through this site http://www.abebooks.com Ian.

17th October 2005, 03:08 PM	#62
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	In ‘The Indian Antiquary’, August 1873, page 217, W.F.Sinclair writes: A common weapon among Hindustanis and Musalmans is a long steel rod with three or four small rings sliding on it. These, slipping forward as the weapon descends, add force to the blow, which is far more severe than might be supposed from the slender appearance of the weapon. It is also a good guard against sword-cuts.

17th October 2005, 03:14 PM	#63
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Hi Jens. Interesting. Have you ever seen such a weapon? How was your trip? Best, A

20th July 2016, 04:51 PM	#65
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	this thread was linked to in another thread today about a blade with sliding balls incorporated. as i read this thread (post 31) there appeared a rapier with a sliding section hailed as a sliding weight sword example. this is incorrect as it was actually created to solve a completely different problem. as rapiers became fashionable, they increased in length to almost silly proportions.m some wielders went accompanied by a servant that would help them draw and re-sheath the blade as needed. numbers of gentlemen carrying these long swords were quite a tripping hazard and cumbersome to manoeuvrer in crowds, and could actually provoke duels. laws were passed to limit blade lengths. i recall london set a maximum BLADE length of 40 inches. guards at the city gates would actually measure blades, and if found too long the owner could be fined and/or his blade snapped off to make it fit the regs. this sword posted earlier was a design to circumvent the law, as it's long blade was slid back to allow it to be sheathed without requiring a servant while also becoming a regulation blade length with a long grip to bypass the regs - which did not specify an overall length. if drawn in anger, the blade was slid out and locked in place rather them sliding in and out freely. overly long rapiers with thrusting only type blades were an affectation of society that died out fairly quickly - that's why so few examples exist. they didn't really work well in a duel, gentlemanly rules of engagement which covered the flaws thankfully were rarely carried over to military blades that stuck to a more practical carry & use length suitable for the no rules melee of hand to hand desperate combat.

20th July 2016, 05:43 PM	#66
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Interesting discussions we had in the good ol' days .

20th July 2016, 05:45 PM	#67
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	luckily we keep on learning instead of stagnating.

20th July 2016, 06:56 PM	#68
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Excellent Kronckew!!! Indeed, we DO keep learning, and mostly because of those here who contribute and share the remarkable knowledge they hold in their specialized fields. Also, that members like yourself revive old threads and topics like this one, bringing into them new evidence or simply new avenues of research on them. Jens, we did have amazing discussions back in those days, and it always further amazes me at how far we have all grown because of them. During these earlier discussions, it seems that the affectation of the 'pearls' in blade channels was included and found to have been from a Persian decorative innovation on blades. It was at some point transmitted to both Indian and Chinese cultural spheres, where they were popularized in recognized degree. I do recall in rapier discussions several years ago the case of these 'adjustable' blades was brought up and as noted the blade length had become a 'legal' dilemma in Spain and I believe others. I believe this was also the basis for the folding knives well known as 'navaja' It was interesting here to see discussions involving members who are sorely missed as well who have been long absent, and the depth of the discourse which brought examples, cases and empirical data to light versus some of the fascinating 'lore'. Well done, thank you!

21st July 2016, 03:06 AM	#69
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Good old days..... When the water was wetter and the girls prettier....

21st July 2016, 10:26 AM	#70
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	the trouble with water is that it is wet. if the man upstairs had wanted us to get wet he would have given us fins. i spent a few decades of my life ensuring i did not have to actually swim in the stuff by putting a large ship underneath me to separate myself from it. even our closets relatives, gorillas and chimps, cover themselves with leaves when it rains. i haven't drunk water in years. i drink only a couple beers a year & don't touch the hard stuff. a glass of port on xmas. i do drink coffee and vast quantities of iced sweet tea with lemon or peach flavouring. OK, that all has water as an ingredient but i can ignore it. the occasional shower is unavoidable. all women are beautiful. some more than others. i find the range of really beautiful women has expanded as i get older.