The exhibition oriental weapons "The Mortal Beauty" of private collections in Russia,

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

I am looking at the drawing and still see a mace. Sorry. Can the author elaborate why it is not?

I am sorry I was banned that time. It is "chobdhar" - man with "chob". You can find a lot of them on Indian miniatures. Definition of "chob" you can find in the Glossary of the excellent book by Robert Elgood "Arms & Armour at the Jaipur Court":
http://www.amazon.com/Arms-Armour-Ja...e+Jaipur+Court

[benny.lee]

India is an ancient civilization.
Its weapons are so exquisite and incredible.
I am a Chinese
I noticed that the Chinese weapons in this museum are more common.
Some frustration

[Jens Nordlunde]

Benny, have a look at page 139 in the catalogue. I know of only four daggers with a blade like this, and decorated in the same way.
The decotartion on the blades are a bit different, but they must be from the same place - likely even the same work shop.
One is in this catalogue. one is in the MET (go to their homepage and make a search for no 30.120.162), one is in a museum in Bejing (see attached) and one is in my collection.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Benny, have a look at page 139 in the catalogue. I know of only four daggers with a blade like this, and decorated in the same way.
The decotartion on the blades are a bit different, but they must be from the same place - likely even the same work shop.
One is in this catalogue. one is in the MET (go to their homepage and make a search for no 30.120.162), one is in a museum in Bejing (see attached) and one is in my collection.

Dagger and scabbard
Date:late 17th–early 18th century
Geography:India
Culture:Islamic
Medium:Hilt: Jade; carved Blade: steel; damascened
Dimensions:L. 18-1/8 in.
Classification:Arms and Armor
Credit Line:The Sylmaris Collection, Gift of George Coe Graves, 1930
Accession Number:30.120.162

[benny.lee]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Benny, have a look at page 139 in the catalogue. I know of only four daggers with a blade like this, and decorated in the same way.
The decotartion on the blades are a bit different, but they must be from the same place - likely even the same work shop.
One is in this catalogue. one is in the MET (go to their homepage and make a search for no 30.120.162), one is in a museum in Bejing (see attached) and one is in my collection.

Yes, I have seen similar things in the the Imperial Palace Museum.
According to the introduction, he was given in the Qing Dynasty by other countries as a gift to the Emperor

[benny.lee]

This is the Qian Long emperor made dozens of DAO in a
Called the "proton" production process is the integration of many India, Persian style
In 2012, the auction price in China was $7500000

[ariel]

Originally Posted by benny.lee

India is an ancient civilization.
Its weapons are so exquisite and incredible.
I am a Chinese
I noticed that the Chinese weapons in this museum are more common.
Some frustration

I guess the difference between the "known" Indian and Chinese weapons may be explainable by historical circumstances.

In 19-20 centuries China had several civil wars with wholesome destruction of cultural heritage, from Taiping rebellion to Cultural Revolution and everything in between, whereas India was relatively peaceful and maintained Royal dynasties with their properties and armouries. Also, religious and cultural pluralism in India was much more conducive to the flourishing variety of "ethnic" weapons , with Hindu and Muslim major branches and "boutique" subsets, such as Coorg, Nepalese, Mysore, NW Frontier etc .
And, lastly, weapons in India had sacred overtones and were treated as such, with infinite variety in form, religious symbolism in decoration and lavish adornments. In China weapons were viewed as utilitarian instruments and ( with the rare exceptions of Royal examples) were limited to several simple patterns of purely practical features.
This does not make Chinese weapons less historically important or interesting, but simply more austere. Da Dao or the so called River Pirates examples are esthetically plain ugly, but did their military job admirably well.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by ariel

In China weapons were viewed as utilitarian instruments and ( with the rare exceptions of Royal examples) were limited to several simple patterns of purely practical features.

Hi Ariel,

like all cultures, there are class levels and within China there were certainly, and are, many many fine examples or weapons types that go beyond this classification you make.
Weapons are certainly NOT only viewed as utilitarian instruments, they move well beyond this culturally.

Gavin

[mariusgmioc]

Thank you guys for sharing these photos!

Really appreciated!

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

I guess the difference between the "known" Indian and Chinese weapons may be explainable by historical circumstances.

Indian soldiers were known to have been in China accompanying the British there, I have seen Indian weapons that were found in China, who knows if this may have influenced Chinese weapons at all.

[ariel]

Yes, but the earliest British invasion of China was during the Taiping war, in the 19th century.
Chinese ornaments and jade handles are also known to be found on Indian weapons.
It was a two way street, but the main currents were very different.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Eric/estcrh,
The Indians were trading with the Chinese long before the English knew how to reach India.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Eric/estcrh,
The Indians were trading with the Chinese long before the English knew how to reach India.

Your right of course but I do not remember seeing any Chinese weapons that looked to be influenced by Indian weapons, there may be some though, this Chinese sword is different, the pistol grip hilt looks very Indian to me, since it was supposedly Qianlong period which was 18th century I was thinking of more recent encounters between the Chinese and India which may have let to this influence.

[ariel]

Perhaps, as an example of "six degrees of separation", the dragon motive moved through Timurids(?) to Persia and India?