Dating the Schiavons sword

[urbanspaceman]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Keith, the length of the handle appears to be longer than average. The blade seems slender. Which to me gives the impression that this was a stabbing weapon. A long time ago I remember reading that these were primarily thrusting weapons but looking at all the examples of blades on this thread and on the forum, it seems that there were possibly several schools of thought associated with this hilt.

Cathy, these may be questions bordering on my being simple minded, did the average length of the handle change over time? Did the balance of the blade shift as well? Am I correct in thinking that many of these were cut and thrust weapons? In your research for the article did you find that they became more thrust orientated as the hilt became more intricate? Or did they continue to be manufactured for a diversity of fencing styles?

Interesting, isn't it?
Personal inclination is towards wide broadsword blades with chopping in mind. The length and strength helped when dealing with a typical munition's grade rapier.
I can understand why the Border Reivers coveted them.
I too think they are the most desirable of all swords and I am very keen to acquire one.

[Cathey]

Just as an update, my article is almost finished now over 25 pages long. It appears to me through examination of about 140 examples that they may have been largely for infantry use very early. The Schiavonesca particularly appear to have been lighter and had shorter blades. Also the early suggestion of Infantry or Marine use could be applied to these early examples, pre the caged hilt and the early skeleton hilts.

However, it appears with the advent of the 30-year war that the Schiavona came into its own as a cavalry weapon. Curtaining in the 17th and 18th Centuries blades on average are long and wide, more suited to cavalry than infantry. They also seem to have transitioned from a general use broadsword, through to what I would describe as a riding sword (similar to a rapier but with a much broader and heavier blade) through to the Rapier with a narrower blade and a longer ricasso.

Looking at my late 18th century example, I can not imagine trying to fence with this weapon, but from horseback it would have been most effective.

Cheers Cathey.

[Cathey]

I am attempting to bring my article for the Heritage Arms Society on the Schiavona to the finish line, then I found a reference to a metal rain cap. Has anyone heard of these before or have any reference material on them they would be prepared to share. Here is a picture of one. It appears to be a metal shaped plate fitted to the bottom so the guard with screws, I can't find any mention of it in my existing references other than a book by Andrew Garcia.

Cheers Cathey

[urbanspaceman]

Here's another one on this luxurious sword.
It looks like an aftermarket addition and it is very ugly in my opinion.
Anyone who owned this sword is unlikely to be out in the rain without an umbrellahttp://www.vikingsword.com/vb/images/icons/icon7.gif
BTW. I still think this is a wootz blade or Bulat at least.
ps
I also do not think it would really be of any use; I can think of other simpler, prettier ways of keeping the rain off the blade.

[urbanspaceman]

Here's another picture of it that reinforces my suggestion it is an aftermarket addition; and a poor - sorry - picture of the entire sword and scabbard that further suggests it's an add-on.

[werecow]

Those are also pictures from Andrew Garcia's site. He's selling the sword there (EDIT: I thought it was the same sword initially but they're clearly not the same). So I guess the only two instances of this that we have so far are from his site and book.

[Cathey]

Hi Guys, yes one is from Andrew Garcia's site the other was posted on facebook. I know of one other example but have been unable to get pictures. From what I can see this fitting would not keep rain out of the scabbard but channel it into the scabbard. Other collectors have agreed that it is likely an addition to add protection to the hand.

Cheers Cathey

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys, yes one is from Andrew Garcia's site the other was posted on facebook. I know of one other example but have been unable to get pictures. From what I can see this fitting would not keep rain out of the scabbard but channel it into the scabbard. Other collectors have agreed that it is likely an addition to add protection to the hand.

Cheers Cathey

As far as I can see from the pictures, the cap runs up to the lower edge of the actual rain guard that is built into the grip, so I don't think it's actually intended to be a rain guard, but rather a guard plate to protect the fingers by closing the largish opening at the bottom of the guard. The diagram from his site calls it a "massive silver guard". You can make out the opening of the rain guard inside the opening in the guard plate in the picture below.

It looks like the scabbard on the one from Andrew Garcia's website has some chafe marks on it and I'm guessing that's how far the scabbard went into the (actual) rain guard (presumably the top of the scabbard is intended to fit into that?), in which case the metal plate would not funnel water into the scabbard but only towards the outside of it. But I'm just speculating here.

[urbanspaceman]

Further speculation:
looking at the measurements, I don't think the scabbard ever went that far into a rain-guard; I think the chafing is a result of a locket... removed when this plate was added.
Whadayathink?

[werecow]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Further speculation:
looking at the measurements, I don't think the scabbard ever went that far into a rain-guard; I think the chafing is a result of a locket... removed when this plate was added.
Whadayathink?

I guess it's possible... But just from looking (with my admittedly somewhat untrained eyes) at how the leather looks near the chape, I would think it'd be more damaged, and the rain guard seems historic so you'd think it'd fit over the scabbard at least to some extent because that's kind of the point of having a rain guard...
And furthermore, my question would be why? Why remove an antique locket and then drill holes through a nice looking guard on a super expensive sword to add a guard plate that is anomalous for the type?
But people do weird things sometimes I suppose.

EDIT: As an aside, I found another example with a rain guard (though it's hard to see) and it also does not have a locket on the scabbard. Pictures added (more at the link).

EDIT: Argh why is this image upload thing so fickle? Trying to upload a better version of the full sized image but it seems to just be loading the older version.

[urbanspaceman]

I suspect you are right; on reflection, the missing locket idea probably does not hold up.

[Jim McDougall]

This is the first time I have seen this term used for many years, and I knew I had found some curious reference to this many years ago. Unfortunately while I kept images of a leather example of one of these, I did not note the source.

With the metal shield screwed to the bottom of the trellis on the schiavona noted, it does not seem that purpose would be likely, but more in the type of pragmatic lore of the guardapolvo (dust guard) on cup hilt rapiers.

Attached is the admittedly vague reference from one of my very old notebooks, just for comparison.

[werecow]

Just noticed that this schiavona also has a guard plate.

[urbanspaceman]

Hi Fernando. Do you know why my PM to Cathey was not sent?

[werecow]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Hi Fernando. Do you know why my PM to Cathey was not sent?

Are you sure it wasn't sent? I tried PM-ing Cathey a week or so ago but did not get a response either. I just assumed it went unnoticed.

Also, as much as I'm interested in discussing it as it is the first flamberge schiavona I've come across, please note that the sword above is still in auction until the 16th.

EDIT: This might explain the issue with unnoticed PMs.

[urbanspaceman]

I looked in my 'SENT' folder and it was not there. Did you check yours Werecow.
I'm not certain what, precisely, defines forbidden in regard to auctions. I assumed as no auction house name was mentioned it was ok but I will certainly bow to contradictions.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by werecow

... Also, as much as I'm interested in discussing it as it is the first flamberge schiavona I've come across, please note that the sword above is still in auction until the 16th...

Noted ... and deleted. Thanks for the warning.

[fernando]

Rules Applying to the Discussion Fora (Ethnographic Weapons, Keris Warung Kopi & European Armoury) Specifically
1. Discussion of items currently in the process of being offered for sale, especially active auctions, is strictly prohibited. This prohibition also includes posting of links or other identifying clues (such as auction numbers) and calling attention that a previously discussed item is now for sale.

[urbanspaceman]

Mea Culpa

[werecow]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

I looked in my 'SENT' folder and it was not there. Did you check yours Werecow.

Yeah, it is in my "sent" folder so I guess something else is going on with your case.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Mea Culpa

.

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

The article on the Schiavona is finally complete and will be published in the June Edition of the Heritage Arms Society Magazine Barrels and Blades. My apologies to anyone I have been slow to respond to via PM, I supposedly work part time but it has been a little crazy lately.

I really do appreciate all of the assistance fellow members have provided and if you would like a compliementary copy of the finished paper please email me at heritage.arms.society@gmail.com

Cheers Cathey

[Reventlov]

Congratulations! Sorry I was not able to get ahold of that article for you in time.

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

Today I have sent out a number of complimentary copies of the June Edition of the Heritage Arms Society Magazine Barrels and Blades containing the Schiavona artilce.

As I have said I do appreciate all of the assistance fellow members have provided and if you have not received a copy already and would like one please email me at heritage.arms.society@gmail.com

Cheers Cathey

[fernando]

Great work indeed, Cathey; congratulations.
And thank you so much for a copy of the article.

[Triarii]

I've just been to the frustratingly chaotic, badly lit and unlabelled Stibbert Museum in Florence. I videoed and photographed the Schiavona rack there - about 25 or so of them, including a slightly unusual hilt. If Cathey wants a copy and any of the photos and the vid I can send them. Photos of the unusual one attached.

PS it is well worth visiting. There's a case of 180 rapiers alone.

[werecow]

Nice one! Do you have any pictures showing the full sword including the blade?

[Triarii]

Here you go.

That's it in the centre. Most of the swords weren't in cases.

Simon

[Triarii]

Here it is. Top row, seventh along.

[werecow]

*drool*