When in India "died" wootz?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

estcrh, I read a books last days of Russian travelers. Those travelers who were in Persia and Bukhara Khanate in 1820-1900 years. Based on their descriptions - in Persia produced wootz.

Then the same thing that happened to wootz production in Indian seems to have happened in Persia as well.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Then the same thing that happened to wootz production in Indian seems to have happened in Persia as well.

I think in Persia this happened to the fact that the army was to move to a European arms. Detachments of irregular cavalry (with ethnic weapon) in Persia were not as significant as for example in Afghanistan or Central Asia. By the way it was from Persia to Central Asia brought blades for swords (including wootz blades) until the 1880s.

[Battara]

I'm thinking that this is the case with many countries/cultures. It seems that Western arms replaced the need for the beautiful wootz in India, Persia, the Ottoman Empire, and other sites. Though understandable, it is still a shame. Only recently has it been rediscovered after lots of research and lots and lots of experimentation.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Battara

I'm thinking that this is the case with many countries/cultures. It seems that Western arms replaced the need for the beautiful wootz in India, Persia, the Ottoman Empire, and other sites. Though understandable, it is still a shame. Only recently has it been rediscovered after lots of research and lots and lots of experimentation.

... and still unable to compare esthetically:-)

But other than the beauty of it, wootz ( old and modern) is still inferior to industially-made steels of today. From the technological point of view we shouldn't be ruing its disappearance. From the esthetical one, the inferior appearance of new wootz blades is also not a bad thing: a blade with a beautiful wootz pattern has a built-in guarantee of being a real antique:-)

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Battara

I'm thinking that this is the case with many countries/cultures. It seems that Western arms replaced the need for the beautiful wootz in India, Persia, the Ottoman Empire, and other sites. Though understandable, it is still a shame. Only recently has it been rediscovered after lots of research and lots and lots of experimentation.

You're right, Battara.

The question is when it happened. In the middle of the 19th century or early 20th century. Agree - this is a big difference.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Maharatt,
It seem to me, that when this thread has had 65 posts so far, and none of them has been to your satisfacthion, we may conclude, that no one on this forum can give the right answer - so I suggest that you will give us your final word.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Maharatt,
It seem to me, that when this thread has had 65 posts so far, and none of them has been to your satisfacthion, we may conclude, that no one on this forum can give the right answer - so I suggest that you will give us your final word.

Jens, it's not that no one on the forum can not give the correct answer. The fact is that there is no literature of the 19th century, which can confirm that by the mid-19th century, the production wootz and manufacture of wootz steel blades in the East ceased. Yes, in India the era of wootz steel is likely to end in the middle of the 19th century. But remained Persia, Afghanistan and Central Asia ...

No responses yet. There are more questions

I think this topic is interesting. And requires further searches the literature of the 19th century, which will help us to discover the secrets of the disappearance of wootz steel.
I think. work together to find simpler. I'm looking for an old Russian literature of the 19th century, where they write about the wootz. For example, in Russian book "Journey to the north of Persia" it is written that in Tehran in a in 1852 did many wootz steel recurved dagger. You are looking at the same books in the English language. For example. I found the book: "Travels in the Panjab, Afghanistan , & Turkistan, to Balk, Bokhara, and Herat and a visit to Great Britain and Germany",1846. Mohana Lāla Munshi

Perhaps write about wootz steel in this book. But, I can not read it quickly, because I know English is bad.

[Jens Nordlunde]

mahratt,
Yes you are right, it is up to you to stop the thread. I cant help you any further with your question, as I have never esearched the question very deeply.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

mahratt,
Yes you are right, it is up to you to stop the thread. I cant help you any further with your question, as I have never esearched the question very deeply.

Jens, I'm sorry for seditious words. I hope I did no one not offend these words.

Do not you think that it is much more interesting more global issues related to the ethnographic weapons (especially now since it is possible through of modern technology, when many old books became available) than just discuss something like: "Look, what my lovely saber" or "Guys, what the name of this dagger?"

Of course, it is also necessary. But there are more interesting questions. And we can work together to find answers to them. At least try to do it.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Yes there really are many very interesting subjects besides the weapons. At one time I was reading about the mining, to learn how they got the gems for decorating the weapons.
In the north some of the diamonds were found in river beds, when the rivers dried out, while in other places they mined the diamonds.
Another interesting subject is the geography of India, to better understand the troubles they went through, transporting the very big armies from one place to another, and the amount of water and food they need every day, both for the soldiers but also for the animals.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

(especially now since it is possible through of modern technology, when many old books became available)

This is quite true, the amount of information available online now is amazing. You never know what you will find simply by reading older texts. I am sure some more wootz related material will be found this way.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by estcrh

This is quite true, the amount of information available online now is amazing. You never know what you will find simply by reading older texts. I am sure some more wootz related material will be found this way.

I am sure more info might be available. However, the veracity of each snippet will never be proven. The general idea is well known: plenty of wootz dated to 18 century, much fewer examples after ~ 1850, singular examples by the end of 19 century ( all of dubious dating), virtually none even at the beginning of 20 century.

It just petered out.....

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

I am sure more info might be available. However, the veracity of each snippet will never be proven. The general idea is well known: plenty of wootz dated to 18 century, much fewer examples after ~ 1850, singular examples by the end of 19 century ( all of dubious dating), virtually none even at the beginning of 20 century.

It just petered out.....

Dating of wootz blades - very controversial issue. Most of the blades has no exact provenance. And any of us to have a more pleasant thing in the collection of the 18th century rather than the 19th century. And so it was up to us)))

Draw conclusions

The fact that in the middle of the 19th century in Persia did a lot wootz blades (1850). Wootzs blades for the year 1860 - also known. It is strange to assume that in 1870 (for example) wootz blades suddenly stopped doing

[Bob A]

Is it safe, then, to assume that an object made with Wootz steel can be dated as pre-1900, absent any other data?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

I am sure more info might be available. However, the veracity of each snippet will never be proven.

There is a lot to be learned from first hand accounts in period texts. Just like modern books you have to decide what to believe and what not to believe but when an 1800s traveler gives you a window into the world at that particular time period I am grateful that someone at Google has taken the time to digitize it and make it available online for free. I for one am not willing to just completely ignore the information contained in books from this time period, and when you find several different accounts that say basically the same thing you find some level of veracity (accuracy / truth etc).

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

I for one am not willing to just completely ignore the information contained in books from this time period, and when you find several different accounts that say basically the same thing you find some level of veracity (accuracy / truth etc).

estcrh, Your words - absolutely true.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by estcrh

...... when you find several different accounts that say basically the same thing you find some level of veracity (accuracy / truth etc).

Do you have verifiable accounts of wootz manufacture and forging dating to the very end of the 19th century?

Nobody argues about pre-~1850 period, and we are not splitting hair about 1860, 1870 etc. Even epidemics do not stop overnight.

In contrast, there are plenty of wootz blades verifiably dated to the 18th century ( I have one dated twice to 1782 on the blade) and likely even more provenanced ones to that or earlier era. Having cited many sources describing early mass-production of wootz and disappearance of this industry around mid-19th century, you yourself answered the question. As to the 20th century..... The entire "wootz" areal was filled with the Europeans, and there is no mention of the process till independent re-discoveries by Sherby and Verhoeven.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

Do you have verifiable accounts of wootz manufacture and forging dating to the very end of the 19th century?

What we believe the very end of the 19th century? 1870? 1880? At this time, wootz blades produced. This is confirmed by the exhibits of the museum with documents.

Originally Posted by ariel

In contrast, there are plenty of wootz blades verifiably dated to the 18th century ( I have one dated twice to 1782 on the blade) and likely even more provenanced ones to that or earlier era.

We need to understand (although any collector would like to think otherwise) that what is written on the blade 1782 does not mean that the blade was made in 1782. For example, everyone knows the cartouches on the wootz blades "Assadula Isfahani." Such cartouches has blades and 18th century, and on the blades of the 19th century. Is it possible for the inscription "Assadula" to say that the blade is required to the 18th century? I think no.

Originally Posted by ariel

Having cited many sources describing early mass-production of wootz and disappearance of this industry around mid-19th century, you yourself answered the question. As to the 20th century..... The entire "wootz" areal was filled with the Europeans, and there is no mention of the process till independent re-discoveries by Sherby and Verhoeven.

"The disappearance of manufacturing wootz steel" describes only contemporary authors and only indirect facts. Maybe I did not see (accidentally missed some post in the topic) a historical source 19 centry, which suggests that the wootz steel production in the mid-19th century has disappeared? I agree that India could this happen. Although ... India - a vast country. And I doubt that anywhere wootz steel production was forgotten.

But over established production of wootz steel (or at least wootz blades) in Persia in the second half of the 19th century, we have the exact facts.

[ariel]

OK, folks!

Why wouldn't we just say that all wootz blades were manufactured at the end of the 19th century and mislabeled by sneaky dealers as being 300-400 years old, and close this silly topic.
Obviously, Mahratt needs something like that to advance yet another Grand Idea of his. I suspect it will be along the lines that Central Asia was a burgeoning hub of wootz production well into 1990's:-)

Facts do not convince him. Let's just make him happy.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

OK, folks!

Why wouldn't we just say that all wootz blades were manufactured at the end of the 19th century and mislabeled by sneaky dealers as being 300-400 years old, and close this silly topic.
Obviously, Mahratt needs something like that to advance yet another Grand Idea of his. I suspect it will be along the lines that Central Asia was a burgeoning hub of wootz production well into 1990's:-)

Facts do not convince him. Let's just make him happy.

Why reduce everything to absurdity? I understand that the topic may seem silly. For example, when there are no serious arguments confirming that damask stopped producing in the mid-19th century

It is clear that many wootz steel blades were made 400, 300 and 200 years ago. But Kirill Rivkin, once said the right idea. He said that we should look at each blade of the complex, not only paying attention to the cartouche on the blade. For example, the 17th century Persian blades is not similar in form to the blades of the 19th century. And cartouche "Assadula" - is not a guarantee that the blade is made in the 17th century

I'm not talking about any ideas, аriel. I demonstrate the facts. And this the facts suggests that the production of wootz blades in Persia did not disappear in the middle of the 19th century (Unlike India). Moreover, it productionis (apparently) not decreased. I understand that the facts are cruel And probably, many It's a shame to know that the blades in their collections are not made in the 18th century, and in the middle or the end of the 19th century. But we're all striving to find the truth. Or not?


I would be pleased to see the facts of the sources of the 19th century, which would say that in the middle of the 19th century wootz disappeared. But why no one shows such historical sources ...

[ariel]

There is such thing as elementary evidentiary rules.
Suggest reviewing them.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Why reduce everything to absurdity? I understand that the topic may seem silly. For example, when there are no serious arguments confirming that damask stopped producing in the mid-19th century
...

other than a large number of 'damascus' steel blades produced for presentation swords in europe and russia from then thru now, which are datable or dated and recipients named on the blades that cam be traced.

i think the subject has become exhausted & should be itself stopped before it gets out of hand by getting too personal. the level of proof other than anecdotal seems insufficient for some. so be it.

[Jim McDougall]

It seems to me that this genuinely interesting topic has been pretty well examined in the posts in this thread, and while there are of course no 'finite' answers, there have been quite a few constructive and thought provoking perspectives added.
I think the only 'silliness' that has permeated the thread is in the seemingly inevitable frustration and personal retorts that have been placed. It is, at least in my view, always disappointing to see persons with remarkable knowledge and intelligence resort to such less than worthy remarks.

It seems obvious to me that just as with the assimilation of various cultural or ethnographic groups into others, i.e. the so called 'disappearance of the Anasazi's in the American Southwest, it is virtually impossible to set any exact date or even period for many such events or circumstances, including the 'disappearance of wootz'.

I think primarily what Mahratt is looking for is documented note regarding the production of wootz in various contemporary sources, and here has been hoping for a more international cross section of such resources.

Even with my admittedly meager understanding of metallurgy itself, the wootz issue notwithstanding, it seems odd to me that this apparently quite mysterious skill could simply vanish, and in a relatively narrow window of time.

It does seem that in some reading I recall (I believe in Pant) it was noted that often in India, there were issues with blades being too brittle, and thus the attraction to more durable European blades. This in addition to the increasing colonial and trade incursions brought large volumes of these blades into the Indian sphere.

The beauty of wootz of course remained an attraction for specialty blades relegated more to high end weapons, but for the volume of arms produced for general use, the trade blades and their native counterparts became the norm.

I think we all know that reliance on dates and similar marks, inscriptions etc on blades cannot be accepted as irrefutable evidence without further corroboration as the commemorative placement of these not to mention entire weapon forms is a constant with anything as traditional as edged weapons.

I think it best for participants to struggle to focus on subject matter without personal barbed comments, and if anyone lacks the forbearance to enact that skill, or if the content of the discussion is simply too much to handle...simply don't continue to read or enter. Its actually quite simple.

Meanwhile, if anyone can locate passages from various works which address wootz production with specification of dates and or locales I think such information would be most helpful.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by kronckew

other than a large number of 'damascus' steel blades produced for presentation swords in europe and russia from then thru now, which are datable or dated and recipients named on the blades that cam be traced.

I apologize. As I write in bad English, I use "Google translator" that to write faster. A "Google Translator" translates all the time, "bulat" (wootz) as "Damascus". Unfortunately, I was not attentive. And it is not corrected in the text in one place the word "damasak".
We had to write a "wootz". Of course, I am talking only about the "wootz".

Originally Posted by kronckew

i think the subject has become exhausted & should be itself stopped before it gets out of hand by getting too personal. the level of proof other than anecdotal seems insufficient for some. so be it.

May I ask what level of evidence is considered serious?
1) There are several mentions Russian travelers (including Ethnographer) and officers in Persia and Central Asia (Bukhara) in the middle of the 19th century (1850-ies) - produced wootz and make the wootz blades.
2) Wootz sabers in Russian museums, which were made in the years 1860-1880.
3) is no reason to stop the production of Damascus steel in the middle of the 19th century in Persia and Bukhara. This, of course, the weakest argument. But he is at the same level as the arguments alleging that the wootz disappeared by the middle of the 19th century.

Of course, if there is no evidence that the wootz in the middle of the 19th century has disappeared (excluding the circumstantial "evidence", which already sounded), the topic has exhausted itself.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Meanwhile, if anyone can locate passages from various works which address wootz production with specification of dates and or locales I think such information would be most helpful.

Jim, thanks for a reasonable word.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It seems to me that this genuinely interesting topic has been pretty well examined in the posts in this thread, ...........................

I think primarily what Mahratt is looking for is documented note regarding the production of wootz in various contemporary sources, and here has been hoping for a more international cross section of such resources.................................


I think it best for participants to struggle to focus on subject matter without personal barbed comments, and if anyone lacks the forbearance to enact that skill, or if the content of the discussion is simply too much to handle...simply don't continue to read or enter. Its actually quite simple...................

Meanwhile, if anyone can locate passages from various works which address wootz production with specification of dates and or locales I think such information would be most helpful.

Jim, I was thinking the same thing and couldnt have said it better myself. Having information and sources from several different people all in one thread will be a great help to anyone with an interest in this subject, there is absolutely no need for sarcasm and degrading remarks, if anyone thinks this thread is to long, or it is silly etc that can simply ignore it, anyone who thinks they have something to add can do that, this is how a forum works.

[ariel]

I agree. This discussion reached an impasse. The question in the form it was asked is unanswerable, because everyone agrees that no precise date or even year of wootz disappearance is ever going to be established. And that's the best we can come up with. Flogging a dead horse is never productive.

I am done. Whoever wants to continue digging further is more than welcome and good luck to him. If actual examples are posted , they may be open to factual critique, but the general discussion is over. At least for me.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

I agree. This discussion reached an impasse. The question in the form it was asked is unanswerable, because everyone agrees that no precise date or even year of wootz disappearance is ever going to be established. And that's the best we can come up with. Flogging a dead horse is never productive.

I am done. Whoever wants to continue digging further is more than welcome and good luck to him. If actual examples are posted , they may be open to factual critique, but the general discussion is over. At least for me.

Thank you, ariel. Your opinion about the "dead horses" clear

I understand that you do not have the facts of the historical sources (mid-late 19th century) that in the middle of the 19th century wootz - disappeared.

[ariel]

No sense putting words I never said in my mouth.
But if you wish to think so, I am not going to stand in your way. This is a free country , and you are entitled to keeping and voicing your opinion. Full speed ahead:-)

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

No sense putting words I never said in my mouth.
But if you wish to think so, I am not going to stand in your way. This is a free country , and you are entitled to keeping and voicing your opinion. Full speed ahead:-)

Why this verbal swordplay?

I have no doubt that you have read a lot of old sources in English. If you have evidence of your words of wootz - I'll be glad to hear.