When in India "died" wootz?

mahratt · 4th February 2016, 05:44 AM

Dear participants of the Forum. It is well known that the wootz in India stopped producing the mid-19th century.

It seems to be known and the reasons why this happened:

1) a ban on logging
2) a large number of blades is not expensive good quality from Europe

But, let's see, from what sources we rely when we say that the wootz steel production in India ended in the mid-19th century.
I think it will be interesting if the participants of the forum called literary source and citation from them, which prove that wootz steel production in India stopped by the mid 19th century.

By the way! What do you think? Termination production of wootz steel means the cessation of the production of wootz steel blades?

But please, let's do without Wikipedia

Jim McDougall · 4th February 2016, 08:14 AM

Interesting topic Mahratt!!
As far as I have understood, the British banned production of wootz around the 1860s blaming the effects of deforestation but I have yet to find a citable source for this situation. I know that a number of 'iron works' were established by EIC official Josiah Heath around 1825, but to me it is unclear whether these 'iron' works included wootz.
"On Indian Iron and Steel " J.M. Heath, " Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society" V, 1839, pp. 390-97,
In an entry on wootz in the "Cyclopedia of India and SE Asia" by Edward Balfour in 1885, the industry of producing wootz is described with no mention of any proscription or forbidding of production found .

In previous discussions we have had here ( Sept,17, 2010) various comments note that existing wootz billets which must have been stockpiled were probably available to makers of the 'old school' well through the 19th c. but still need cited references to support. Whatever the case, this long standing industry of world famous steel certainly didn't vanish overnight through some bureaucratic order.

kronckew · 4th February 2016, 11:10 AM

i gather it just died out for economical reasons, excellent easily worked steel and alloys in europe and being exported slowly killed off the more expensive wootz/bulat, it was just easier and cheaper to mass produce high quality weapons almost as good as if not better than wootz.

the current infatuation with the more artistically beautiful patterns in wootz and pattern welded steel, still more expensive than mono-steel alloys, is mainly due to the lack of need for them as weapons, and the desires of collectors, like us, and of experimental archaeologists obsessed with the desire to resurrect the lost secrets.

mahratt · 4th February 2016, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

i gather it just died out for economical reasons, excellent easily worked steel and alloys in europe and being exported slowly killed off the more expensive wootz/bulat, it was just easier and cheaper to mass produce high quality weapons almost as good as if not better than wootz.

Of course you're right! I agree with you. But the question is, when exactly was "killed" wootz?

Why did talk about the middle of the 19th century, rather than the beginning of the 20th century?

And who of the researchers wrote on the subject, proving his words, not just voicing assumptions.

kronckew · 4th February 2016, 12:00 PM

try this: http://www.wirralmodelengineeringsoc...er_Process.pdf

looks like it started about 1865 when the commercial production of bessimer process steel was commercially available.

mahratt · 4th February 2016, 12:22 PM

Again, you're right. Thank you for the interesting article. But I am interested to know whether there is a direct mention to the fact that wootz steel production ceased in those years, the 19th century. Stating the reasons

We are now argue that damask steel production was a long and expensive process. I agree. From the point of view of Europeans. But, do manual work is now in India dearly valued? I doubt that 150 years ago the situation was different ....

estcrh · 4th February 2016, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Dear participants of the Forum. It is well known that the wootz in India stopped producing the mid-19th century.

It seems to be known and the reasons why this happened:

1) a ban on logging
2) a large number of blades is not expensive good quality from Europe

But, let's see, from what sources we rely when we say that the wootz steel production in India ended in the mid-19th century.
I think it will be interesting if the participants of the forum called literary source and citation from them, which prove that wootz steel production in India stopped by the mid 19th century.

By the way! What do you think? Termination production of wootz steel means the cessation of the production of wootz steel blades?

But please, let's do without Wikipedia

Why was The Russian metallurgist Pavel Petrovich Anosov (1799-1851) so intent on learning how to make bulat if it was still being widely produced during the time period that he was alive?

mahratt · 4th February 2016, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Why was The Russian metallurgist Pavel Petrovich Anosov (1799-1851) so intent on learning how to make bulat if it was still being widely produced during the time period that he was alive?

I'm not saying that the wootz in the middle of the 19th century were able to produce. Although we do not see specific mention of this. And I'm curious to see such references.

It is about that of the old wootz blanks probably could do wootz blades. And anyway, how could disappear for short period many centuries established production?

Jim McDougall · 4th February 2016, 05:15 PM

Kronckew and Estcrh , you guys are spot on in your assessments and views on the situation, which is essentially what I was finding but honestly could not put into proper words. Metallurgy and these more scientific aspects are admittedly my nemesis in these studies

I am along with Mahratt in wondering how this 'art' in fabricating this fantastic steel in India could just vanish, and that its secrets were so intricate they could not be duplicated.

The advance of industrial revolution seems to have furnished more cost efficient methods of producing steel in England, so the call for these materials certainly would play a larger role in volume. However, as Estrch has well pointed out, if wootz blades were still being produced in his lifetime, why would a scientist be trying to discover this secret?

I think this scenario itself is one of the greatest mysteries of wootz, compounded by the fact that Russian presence in Central Asia certainly must have had access to centers which produced blades. Did they not have political access to Iran ? I need my "Great Game" by Peter Hopkirk!!!!

4th February 2016, 05:44 AM	#1
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	When in India "died" wootz? Dear participants of the Forum. It is well known that the wootz in India stopped producing the mid-19th century. It seems to be known and the reasons why this happened: 1) a ban on logging 2) a large number of blades is not expensive good quality from Europe But, let's see, from what sources we rely when we say that the wootz steel production in India ended in the mid-19th century. I think it will be interesting if the participants of the forum called literary source and citation from them, which prove that wootz steel production in India stopped by the mid 19th century. By the way! What do you think? Termination production of wootz steel means the cessation of the production of wootz steel blades? But please, let's do without Wikipedia

4th February 2016, 08:14 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Interesting topic Mahratt!! As far as I have understood, the British banned production of wootz around the 1860s blaming the effects of deforestation but I have yet to find a citable source for this situation. I know that a number of 'iron works' were established by EIC official Josiah Heath around 1825, but to me it is unclear whether these 'iron' works included wootz. "On Indian Iron and Steel " J.M. Heath, " Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society" V, 1839, pp. 390-97, In an entry on wootz in the "Cyclopedia of India and SE Asia" by Edward Balfour in 1885, the industry of producing wootz is described with no mention of any proscription or forbidding of production found . In previous discussions we have had here ( Sept,17, 2010) various comments note that existing wootz billets which must have been stockpiled were probably available to makers of the 'old school' well through the 19th c. but still need cited references to support. Whatever the case, this long standing industry of world famous steel certainly didn't vanish overnight through some bureaucratic order.

4th February 2016, 11:10 AM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	i gather it just died out for economical reasons, excellent easily worked steel and alloys in europe and being exported slowly killed off the more expensive wootz/bulat, it was just easier and cheaper to mass produce high quality weapons almost as good as if not better than wootz. the current infatuation with the more artistically beautiful patterns in wootz and pattern welded steel, still more expensive than mono-steel alloys, is mainly due to the lack of need for them as weapons, and the desires of collectors, like us, and of experimental archaeologists obsessed with the desire to resurrect the lost secrets.

4th February 2016, 12:00 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	try this: http://www.wirralmodelengineeringsoc...er_Process.pdf looks like it started about 1865 when the commercial production of bessimer process steel was commercially available.

4th February 2016, 12:22 PM	#6
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Again, you're right. Thank you for the interesting article. But I am interested to know whether there is a direct mention to the fact that wootz steel production ceased in those years, the 19th century. Stating the reasons We are now argue that damask steel production was a long and expensive process. I agree. From the point of view of Europeans. But, do manual work is now in India dearly valued? I doubt that 150 years ago the situation was different ....

4th February 2016, 05:15 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Kronckew and Estcrh , you guys are spot on in your assessments and views on the situation, which is essentially what I was finding but honestly could not put into proper words. Metallurgy and these more scientific aspects are admittedly my nemesis in these studies I am along with Mahratt in wondering how this 'art' in fabricating this fantastic steel in India could just vanish, and that its secrets were so intricate they could not be duplicated. The advance of industrial revolution seems to have furnished more cost efficient methods of producing steel in England, so the call for these materials certainly would play a larger role in volume. However, as Estrch has well pointed out, if wootz blades were still being produced in his lifetime, why would a scientist be trying to discover this secret? I think this scenario itself is one of the greatest mysteries of wootz, compounded by the fact that Russian presence in Central Asia certainly must have had access to centers which produced blades. Did they not have political access to Iran ? I need my "Great Game" by Peter Hopkirk!!!!