cultures moderation tips for keris lovers

[purwacarita]

Nechesh, you worte You asked a while back where your fellow countrymen were in these discussions, but when they speak up and disagree with you you seem to treat them with disrespect. I'm sorry that my post was read that way I guess I'm not good enough to use English language or maybe I often used English words which read politely by coutrymen (like me), but read disrespect by Englishmen. If you can quote specifically which part I sound like that, please do so so I can fix that. I won't edit my post, but will post the clarification. I hope it works for you and for the countrymen.

Your understanding of Yoni is diffenrent from mine. I understand it NOT as a representation of sex organ and I have posted on ruabhineda but you seem to skip it.

The words Ing karsa sing tuladha, ing madya mangku karsa, tut wuri handayani in my modest understanding will read the ideal philosophy of life, where if we are in front of things or if we feel superior of more powerful than others, we should give constructive examples through our daily deeds. If we are among others or in community, we shall share our constructive spirit (not soul). If we are behind the scene we shall be the driving force to motivate others to contructiveness. I hope I'm not wrong.

About gurindam, thanx to Boedhi I have another understanding. My last understanding is as I posted that it is a gift with symbols of an unspeakable message, while the message is usually unspeakable, it is usually sarcastic in order to echo the message in bearer's mind. But having gurindam said in poem like the Malayan's, I think that I could be wrong in putting the name gurindam to call the gift. Perhaps the correct one is that gurindam is the sarcastic method of message delivery where keris, poem, gift etc are only the media. Thus I think in Malayan gurindam version in poem, the poem itself is not gurindam, but by reading it, ones will remember something like his duty or commitment, and so the poem serves the purpose as gurindam. A mild sarcastic message to us in order to remember our duty/commitment. There, I think it's better.

~Hing ngarsa sung tuladha, hing madya mangun karsa, tut wuri handayani. It's now a gurindam.

[sigit subagio]

Pak Purwa, Sigit will please to ask Pak Purwa to tell what means it:-

Ing ngarso sing tuladha ing madya mbangun karsa tut wuri handayani.

Sigit very ashame and embaras because to ask this because Sigit Jawa pribumi and from Jember and parent from Matesih but Sigit no can Krama Inggil and already to ask to other people much and they not can understand also.

Please Pak Purwa can to write this with ngoko or with Bahasa Indonesia.

Please Pak Purwa no to write the filsafat however to write the word with ngoko or Bahasa Indonesia.

Please to forgive Sigit for stupid and for no good education because Sigit to cause Pak Purwa very much problem and difficult.


Sigit say one thousand time thank you to Pak Purwa for Pak Purwa understand and help.

My respect

Sigit.

[ariel]

I am usually trying to stay away from the Kris issues: it is far too complicated and specialized area of weaponry and I know far too little about it to utter anything intelligent.
But what we are talking about here is not tangible aspects of an intricately and beautifully shaped piece of metal (blade)and some organic material on top (handle), but some mystical and supernatural things.

Yes, I know, we are supposed to be sensitive to other peoples' beliefs but the last time I looked outside, it still was 21st century. We can and should learn cultural aspects of the weapons we collect including the local lore, but out of curiosity: does anybody around here seriously and rationally believe in "esoteric properties' and "mystical powers" of this lovely weapon?
If the answer is in the positive, I'll be requesting an application form for the Flat Earth Society.

[BluErf]

Whoa, a lot of good discussion has transpired since I last looked at this post in early September. It was a really informative look into the concept of 'Mahar' and more in the Javanese context. I'll just be 'sponging' off this thread. Thank you.

Originally Posted by purwacarita

Hi Rick. The maker is mpu Jeno, isn't it?

The keris blade doesn't quite look like Empu Jeno's style, and also, I thought Empu Jeno would dress his kerises in Yogyakarta sheath and handle?

[nechesh]

First of all Ariel, there is a great deal of misunderstanding as to what magickal and mystical properties actually are. It's really hard to have a discussion about these things when we don't have a common definition of what we are talking about. If you choose to believe that the unseen world is non-existent i for one don't have any problem with that. Perhaps electricity, magnetism, gravity and even air itself also don't really exist because we can not see them. Try reading a bit of modern physics if your interested in some deep mystic thought.
This doesn't really seem to be the proper forum to get into a debate as to whether or not such things exist. But to answer you question i suggest you pick up your application for your local branch of the Flat Earth Society.

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by sigit subagio

Pak Purwa, Sigit will please to ask Pak Purwa to tell what means it:-Ing ngarso sing tuladha ing madya mbangun karsa tut wuri handayani.
.

Happy Ramadhan to you who are fasting,
and salaams to all,

Sorry to interupt the discussion but as we wait for Pak Purwa I think that I might be able to support the respected members of this discussion who hold the opinion that a gurindam is a form of Malay literature and a type of pantun. In traditional Jawa the term gurindam is not used. Traditional Malay poetry follows a strict form and the umbrella term pantun is used to describe the verses. Often the first two lines are merely opening rhymes for the last two lines:

Berburu ke padang datar
Mendapat rusa belang kaki
Berguru kepalang ajar
Bagai bunga kembang tak jadi

Hunt in the flat grass-land
Get a stag with speckled feet
Study unwhole-heartedly
Like a flower failing to bloom.

Yoni in keris terms was indeed introduced by the Solo Prince. I believe it is a confusing term and was accepted because it seemed right and was introduced by a Prince. If you must use the term yoni it should refer to th ganja, the lingga the wilah. However after walisanga Islamized keris these terms were no longer used in Jawa. Yoni was introduced by the Solo Prince to refer to the esoteric properties of the keris in a seminar in the 1980's and it is documented in EK Harsrinuksmo.

Ing ngarso sun (not sing) tulada, ing madya mangun karsa, tut wuri handayani...

Is also a modern Jawa motto. It was thought up by Ki Hadjar Dewantara as the motto for teachers in Taman Siswa schools. Ki Hadjar himself was educated in Europe in around WWI and worked as a teacher in a Montessori school and was familiar with Steiner too. He came back to Indonesia to become the father of modern Indonesian education. A pity many of his principles are no longer followed. The motto means: In front I lead, in the midst I motivate, from behind I energise.

I also disagree that most Indonesians buy keris for their esoteric properties. I collect keris for their individual merit, the beauty and the workmanship, and the story the individual keris inherently brings with it as an artefact and this is what I learned from my father and his friends so has been going on for generations.

Warmest salaams to all,

KC

[ariel]

Originally Posted by nechesh

First of all Ariel, there is a great deal of misunderstanding as to what magickal and mystical properties actually are. It's really hard to have a discussion about these things when we don't have a common definition of what we are talking about. If you choose to believe that the unseen world is non-existent i for one don't have any problem with that. Perhaps electricity, magnetism, gravity and even air itself also don't really exist because we can not see them. Try reading a bit of modern physics if your interested in some deep mystic thought.
This doesn't really seem to be the proper forum to get into a debate as to whether or not such things exist. But to answer you question i suggest you pick up your application for your local branch of the Flat Earth Society.

To have my computer work, I need to connect it to the electrical outlet and if it falls off the desk it ends on the floor but not on the ceiling. Composition of air, its pressure and movement are easily measurable and you may try to hold your breath for a while or dive in your own bathtub to get a final proof of the air's existence. Where is the evidence that magic is real? I have recently read that 25% of Americans believe that the Sun rotates around the Earth .. Seems to me that Galileo died in vain...
As to the propriety of discussing such things on this Forum, I disagree. I have no problem with anybody maintaining his personal religious and occult beliefs. The minute these beliefs are expressed in connection with weapons (the topic of this Forum), they become a fair game for questioning. You would not hesitate to call me on the carpet if I posted here my personal belief that Shamshirs originally came from Nicaragua.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by ariel

You would not hesitate to call me on the carpet if I posted here my personal belief that Shamshirs originally came from Nicaragua.

You mean they didn't !?!

Seriously Ariel , swords and mysticism are historically and inextricably entwined throughout most Eastern and many Western cultures ; the cruciform shape of the European sword of the 12th and 13 century crusaders for example representing the sword as an implement of God's will ; Thulfiqar and the religious significance of the bifurcated blade to Muslims .

Nowhere is this mysticism more evident than in the keris .
I can see no problem with letting keris enthusiasts hash this subject out in the forum providing they do so in a polite and civilised manner .
I would however very much like to see this discourse continue in English because it is the 'lingua franca' of this forum .

I agree with you that we are getting somewhat mired in this thread and I think it is due mostly to language differences and interpretation .

The EEW forum is a buffet of sorts ; when passing through the line if you find a particular dish unappealing then don't put it on your plate .

[nechesh]

My point Ariel is that you are "calling to the carpet" beliefs which are a matter of faith, not science. The measurement of the scientific phenomenon which you mention is all fine and good, but you must also remember that scientist have a way of developing methods of measurement that fit into the answers they are seeking. Probably why the answers keep changing as science continually develops "better" methods of measurement.(i just found out yesterday that Mt. Everest is actually 14 ft. shorter than previously thought ). So tell me, does sub-atomic material take the form of a particle or a wave? All depends on how you look at it.
Where is the evidence that magic is real? I don't need any. That's part of what faith is all about. My personal experiences are my own. I know what i know and don't need to qualify it by the scientfic methods of others. But i have had my own experiences with the unseen world which equal your experience with your computer's electric problems and picking it up off the floor after a fall.(i.e. they are very real to me) I have no great need, however, to prove them to you or anyone else for that matter. While i would have little problem calling ones science to the carpet, i would personally think twice before calling ones faith there.

[Tim Simmons]

Talking about magic and weapons. That Wavooka chap who came up with the ghost dance and ghost shirts, there is a good illustration of magic found wanting in the face of science, or does or did his magic not count. Just a thought . Tim

[nechesh]

BTW, thanks Kiai for adding a bit more depth and understanding to this discussion in a clear and forthright manner. I greatly appreciate your citing of the sources of certain phrases and beliefs as well, allowing us to put these things into time frames and better understand their meanings and significance.

[rahman]

Berburu ke padang datar
Mendapat rusa belang kaki
Berguru kepalang ajar
Bagai bunga kembang tak jadi

Pak Kiyai

I'm afraid you just gave an excellent example of a pantun. A gurindam is a two-line rhyme. Pls see here: http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...page&pageid=22

[Emanuel]

Greetings,

I have been reading this thread with great interest, as (for me) it answers numerous questions about the keris, specifically about the shape. What makes them all so different, what causes their uniqueness, what defines them? Mostly what is their purpose?

So far, it is my understanding that the dapur and pamor are representative of many qualities inherant to the keris bearer. History, identity, personality, dreams, desires, passions, all of these are forged within the fabric of the keris? To me, the words of all the members here knowledgeable of the Indonesian/Javanese/Malay culture indicate that keris can be read much as Japanese/Chinese calligraphy is read. That the very act or writing -in this case crafting the keris- can tell everything about the maker, the bearer, and perhaps even the reader. I gather that all these properties are also extended to the ukiran, warangka, and the pendok.
To Sirs. Purwacarita, Marto, Nechesh, Boedhi and Sigit, is the keris so wholly symbolic of your culture(s), that it sums up its phylosophies and beliefs, its poetry and history? Was (is) the keris meant to represent all of one man's past, present and future, and is that why it was(is) such a private-intimate affair?

Is my understanding the least bit correct?
Regards,
Manolo

[Boedhi Adhitya]

Hi, Ariel. Welcome aboard on 'keris forum'

Mysticism vs science is a very tought matter, and will never end in one final conclusion. Just like discussing the God's existence. It is philosophers' "play ground". I do respect your doubtful and skeptic opinion on mystcism. Today's world is fulfilled with materialism and positivism point of view which eventually gave advance to the science and human civilization. (some, will argue that it is nature destruction and certainly not an advancement).

Good philosopher would aware of limitation of science. It rely heavily on observation of phenomenon. An 'observation' would heavily rely on '5 senses'. Thus, blind men would observe the world quite different and make their own understanding on it. Red or blue, dark or light, have no meaning for them. And none of playboy's playmates is beauty/sexy. In fact, they may have their own understanding on 'sexy' Thus, modern science would see all unobserved phenomenon as unexist, while it is not necessarily true. Radiation, will never exist in science until Marie Curie, accidentally, observed the phenomenon. Thank's to her, today, it is "exist", with the help of radiation detector/geiger counter. Without this "help", radiation will be "unexist" until someone get sick, and in the old days, people would gave offering. Other limitation to science is "the phenomenon should be repeatable". Unrepeatable phenomenon would be seen as "random/accidential".

Quoting Tanpoaran on "Sangkan Paraning Dumadi" (which unfortunately, I believe, only Javanese could read it ), "Belief needs no evidence. Once the evidence is observable, it should no longer called belief. It's a fact. If it is a fact, it does exist whether you believe it or not". For many of us, mysticism would only be a belief / faith. But for some, it could be a fact of life. I know someone who has control the fire using his heirloom spear while his neighbour's house on fire. Other is immersing his 'Kebo lajer' keris on a pail of water and bath his cows with it to cure it. It's all work, and no science could explain. For them, it is a fact, no matter what science said. IMHO, those who believe in God would easily accept a "miracle". For them, life itself is a miracle. Those who didn't, would see miracle as "random / accidential happens". For me personally, nothing so 'weird' about it, just like a 'miracleous' pimple just pop-up in the morning Miracles happens every days. I would not "exagerrated" the keris' mysticism, and Ariel, someone, do believe it seriously (and try to rationalized it)

Dear Mr. Manolo, I believe you have a quite good understanding . But please remember, this understanding only apply if the owner/bearer "match" it on purpose. Thus, while you may read the keris' purpose as it intended by the maker, you shouldn't 'expand/attributed' this understanding to the collector who own the keris just for the sake of beauty. But traditionally, match or not, you should treat the keris with respect 'as if' it is a match to the owner. To determine which one really 'match' the owner, you should pay close attention on how the owner treat his kerises, eg. which one he really prized of, proud of or love. Even so, this methods not always correct, especially today

Western approach would be to "control, dominate or overcome", while Eastern approach would always "seek in harmonies / balance". Understanding and giving some respect on this different approachs would "ease" our cultural understanding. Just my personal thought

Last but not least, happy ramadhan too Pak Kiai Carita and all of you who are fasting.

best regards.

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by rahman

Pak Kiyai

I'm afraid you just gave an excellent example of a pantun. A gurindam is a two-line rhyme. Pls see here: http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...page&pageid=22

Assalaamu'alaikum'

Rahman thank you for the correction ... still the point is that gurindam is a Malay form and not a Jawa form. As for the hidden meanings in words mentioned by Purwacarita as gurindam, in Jawa are not called gurindam. Maybe Purwa means sanepan (sanepa) ....

Also while we are at it, am I mistaken to think that all forms of Malay poetry are forms of pantun?

Warm salaams to all.
KC