Cut steel decorations on Indian arms - Page 3

Cthulhu · 3rd December 2019, 06:25 AM

Wow, nice pieces, all.

Jens, I must admit I can't find anything that's definitively a peacock on your pata. I can imagine them all over, but anything that might be a peacock I could imagine to be just about anything else as well.

And, sadly nothing in my collection has good carved steel decoration. The closest I come is some wrenched panels on hafts. But I'm really enjoying seeing all of your lovely carved steel weapons.

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd December 2019, 03:22 PM

This might help you to find the peacocks.

Cthulhu · 7th December 2019, 04:34 AM

I found one item in my collection that has some figural carving, so here's a photo. The carving is fairly crude and heavily worn, so not exactly a beauty piece.

And thanks for the explanation of the peacocks, Jens. I see real peacocks a few times a week so that's probably what was throwing me off.

Kubur · 7th December 2019, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cthulhu

And thanks for the explanation of the peacocks, Jens. I see real peacocks a few times a week so that's probably what was throwing me off.

The peacocks
nice to see
horrible to hear
like my ex-wife

Jens Nordlunde · 7th December 2019, 10:35 PM

Well, when you have to do with old weapons, you will have to study how the different forms, like animals, were shown at the time - but it seems as if none of you did so, what a pity. However, I am glad that you now see it, and hopefully have learned from this exercise:-).

psingh123 · 27th April 2020, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

It s seldom writers comment on the decoration of the Indian weapons, but Hermann Goetz did in his book The Art and Architecture of Bikaner State, p. 125, 1950.
Cut steel decoration was far more popular than most think, and lasted quite long, before inlay and koftgari took over. Here is a quote from Goetz' book.
The katar shown is an example of cut steel decoration. In this case the katar is 17th century, but with a Bikaner dot inscription.
Surat Singhji (r. 1787-1828). Ji is a honorific suffix.

interesting!

kronckew · 28th April 2020, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cthulhu

I found one item in my collection that has some figural carving, so here's a photo. The carving is fairly crude and heavily worn, so not exactly a beauty piece.
...

My zaghnol on a very similar motif: As sold, cleaned up a bit after tho.

ariel · 28th April 2020, 09:09 PM

My Aradam ( blade serrated on both edges, if on one edge only, it is an Arapusta)
Mechanical damascus. I would date it to 18 century, but would like to hear opinions

ariel · 28th April 2020, 09:19 PM

And here is my Khyber ( Selavah). A relatively small one, with blade 15 1/4"
Very careful, complex and deep chiseling with subsequent gilding on both sides. As per Jens' assessment, it is of Indian manufacture ( at least the decoration) and of high quality . He cautiously dated it to 18 century, perhaps earlier.
I would be grateful to him for a yet another look and a master class in dating/ attribution. Of course , everybody else is invited.

Cthulhu · 29th April 2020, 06:27 AM

Nice, kronckew. Looks like a thick and useful blade, unlike my zaghnal which is surprisingly delicate.
I have another zaghnal which is rather similarly made, but doesn't qualify for this cut steel decoration thread, being brass.

That's an amazingly intricate khyber knife, ariel. I wouldn't hazard a guess at dates for either of your pieces; I have more enthusiasm than knowledge where these things are concerned.

Really interesting on the tulwar how the serrations aren't present on the belly of the blade; I wonder if that was a practical or aesthetic decision? Not that I expect that's knowable.

ariel · 29th April 2020, 03:07 PM

My personal guess, not supported by any factual knowledge is that the working segment of the Aradam blade was left not serrated for practical purposes, to optimize its slashing ability. The rest was for show, to unnerve the opponent. Serrated blades are great for cutting but require a lot of to-and-fro movements. Their wounds leave a lot of tissue fragment without good blood supply and as such easily susceptible for necrosis and late infection. But that requires days, and at the battlefield you want to finish your opponent right then and there, with a single blow.

3rd December 2019, 03:22 PM	#62
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	This might help you to find the peacocks. Attached Images

7th December 2019, 04:34 AM	#63
Cthulhu Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Central Valley, California Posts: 46	Carved steel zaghnal I found one item in my collection that has some figural carving, so here's a photo. The carving is fairly crude and heavily worn, so not exactly a beauty piece. And thanks for the explanation of the peacocks, Jens. I see real peacocks a few times a week so that's probably what was throwing me off. Attached Images

28th April 2020, 09:09 PM	#68
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My Aradam ( blade serrated on both edges, if on one edge only, it is an Arapusta) Mechanical damascus. I would date it to 18 century, but would like to hear opinions Attached Images

28th April 2020, 09:19 PM	#69
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	And here is my Khyber ( Selavah). A relatively small one, with blade 15 1/4" Very careful, complex and deep chiseling with subsequent gilding on both sides. As per Jens' assessment, it is of Indian manufacture ( at least the decoration) and of high quality . He cautiously dated it to 18 century, perhaps earlier. I would be grateful to him for a yet another look and a master class in dating/ attribution. Of course , everybody else is invited. Attached Images

3rd December 2019, 06:25 AM	#61
Cthulhu Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Central Valley, California Posts: 46	Wow, nice pieces, all. Jens, I must admit I can't find anything that's definitively a peacock on your pata. I can imagine them all over, but anything that might be a peacock I could imagine to be just about anything else as well. And, sadly nothing in my collection has good carved steel decoration. The closest I come is some wrenched panels on hafts. But I'm really enjoying seeing all of your lovely carved steel weapons.

7th December 2019, 10:35 PM	#65
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Well, when you have to do with old weapons, you will have to study how the different forms, like animals, were shown at the time - but it seems as if none of you did so, what a pity. However, I am glad that you now see it, and hopefully have learned from this exercise:-).

29th April 2020, 06:27 AM	#70
Cthulhu Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Central Valley, California Posts: 46	Nice, kronckew. Looks like a thick and useful blade, unlike my zaghnal which is surprisingly delicate. I have another zaghnal which is rather similarly made, but doesn't qualify for this cut steel decoration thread, being brass. That's an amazingly intricate khyber knife, ariel. I wouldn't hazard a guess at dates for either of your pieces; I have more enthusiasm than knowledge where these things are concerned. Really interesting on the tulwar how the serrations aren't present on the belly of the blade; I wonder if that was a practical or aesthetic decision? Not that I expect that's knowable.

29th April 2020, 03:07 PM	#71
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My personal guess, not supported by any factual knowledge is that the working segment of the Aradam blade was left not serrated for practical purposes, to optimize its slashing ability. The rest was for show, to unnerve the opponent. Serrated blades are great for cutting but require a lot of to-and-fro movements. Their wounds leave a lot of tissue fragment without good blood supply and as such easily susceptible for necrosis and late infection. But that requires days, and at the battlefield you want to finish your opponent right then and there, with a single blow.