The Omani Battle Sword. Sayf Yamaani.

[AhmedH]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams; Note to Library. The British Museum exhibit...The Omani Battle Sword. Which they appear to call a dance sword (which it isn't).
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Ibrahiim,

First of all: Happy New Year! Now then, I've really enjoyed this thread very much, and I liked your discussion with Iain regarding this issue.

Regarding the photos of those Omani swords, their shape, features, etc all date back to c. 600 CE ; not just 751 CE. In fact, I believe 751 CE would be TOO PRUDENT.

However, I still need to know the dimensions of the blades: whether in length, breadth, and thickness...along with the full weight of these swords minus their scabbards.

Any other info regarding these swords shall be highly appreciated, Sir.

Thanks a lot in advance.

Ahmed Helal Hussein

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by AhmedH

Salaams Ibrahiim,

First of all: Happy New Year! Now then, I've really enjoyed this thread very much, and I liked your discussion with Iain regarding this issue.

Regarding the photos of those Omani swords, their shape, features, etc all date back to c. 600 CE ; not just 751 CE. In fact, I believe 751 CE would be TOO PRUDENT.

However, I still need to know the dimensions of the blades: whether in length, breadth, and thickness...along with the full weight of these swords minus their scabbards.

Any other info regarding these swords shall be highly appreciated, Sir.

Thanks a lot in advance.

Ahmed Helal Hussein

Salaams Ahmed..Happy New Year !!

The Saif Yemaani ~ I agree with the earlier date of 600 but it was difficult enough to wean people off the idea that these were either Portuguese or wildly ranging in age between about the 10th and 19th Century !! I will weigh up my own sword and let you have the statistics. In addition I thought it worth simply tying the sword to a specific date in Omani history though obviously it could easily be prior to that date. I was looking for a link as a religious iconic weapon..

Please note my comparison with the Abasiid sword though done only from photographic records from Topkapi. I chose 751 because it was the start date of Omans Ibaathi religion and the date of the first Imam. I think I noted that this figure was tentative and could easily be before that... but clearly with an Islamic Hilt the date could easily be as you note. Weight is 0 point 9 of a kilogram without scabbard and 1 point 1 kilogram with scabbard. Width at throat is 4 point 7 centimetres and blade length is 66 point 5 centimetres. The Hilt measures 14 point 3 cms with a cuff of 2 point 2 centimetres at the throat.

The measurements are from the weapon at #35.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[AhmedH]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Ahmed..Happy New Year !!

The Saif Yemaani ~ I agree with the earlier date of 600 but it was difficult enough to wean people off the idea that these were either Portuguese or wildly ranging in age between about the 10th and 19th Century !! I will weigh up my own sword and let you have the statistics. In addition I thought it worth simply tying the sword to a specific date in Omani history though obviously it could easily be prior to that date. I was looking for a link as a religious iconic weapon..

Please note my comparison with the Abasiid sword though done only from photographic records from Topkapi. I chose 751 because it was the start date of Omans Ibaathi religion and the date of the first Imam. I think I noted that this figure was tentative and could easily be before that... but clearly with an Islamic Hilt the date could easily be as you note. Weight is 0 point 9 of a kilogram without scabbard and 1 point 1 kilogram with scabbard. Width at throat is 4 point 7 centimetres and blade length is 66 point 5 centimetres. The Hilt measures 14 point 3 cms with a cuff of 2 point 2 centimetres at the throat.

The measurements are from the weapon at #35.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thanks a lot for the info, Ibrahiim! The dimensions of the sword you've mentioned clearly reveals that it was an infantryman's sword; not a horseman's. It also wasn't for use against fully armored opponents.

Yes, you were correct to say that there were likes of this sword before the Abbasid period. You see: There are no differences between the Arab swords of the late pre-Islamic era, and those Arab swords referring to al-Rashidun era, and those of the Umayyad era, and those of the Abbasid era; except in the decorations, and the calligraphy style. Add to that the many cheap swords that were manufactured locally and were forged from locally made crucible steel; starting from the Umayyad period.

Had I seen your work on the Omani War Sword (Sayf Yamaani) before earning my masters degree, my dissertation would've come out more valuable than it did. The hilts of those Omani War Swords are priceless; not to mention the blades.

It's really a pleasure reading and studying your work on this extremely important topic! Thanks a lot, Ibrahiim!

Ahmed Helal Hussein

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by AhmedH

Thanks a lot for the info, Ibrahiim! The dimensions of the sword you've mentioned clearly reveals that it was an infantryman's sword; not a horseman's. It also wasn't for use against fully armored opponents.

Yes, you were correct to say that there were likes of this sword before the Abbasid period. You see: There are no differences between the Arab swords of the late pre-Islamic era, and those Arab swords referring to al-Rashidun era, and those of the Umayyad era, and those of the Abbasid era; except in the decorations, and the calligraphy style. Add to that the many cheap swords that were manufactured locally and were forged from locally made crucible steel; starting from the Umayyad period.

Had I seen your work on the Omani War Sword (Sayf Yamaani) before earning my masters degree, my dissertation would've come out more valuable than it did. The hilts of those Omani War Swords are priceless; not to mention the blades.

It's really a pleasure reading and studying your work on this extremely important topic! Thanks a lot, Ibrahiim!

Ahmed Helal Hussein

Salaams Ahmed ~ Thank you for your great post. Most encouraging. I shall try to find a few more Sayf Yamaani before it is too late...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[AhmedH]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Ahmed ~ Thank you for your great post. Most encouraging. I shall try to find a few more Sayf Yamaani before it is too late...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim,

I said nothing but the truth; no flattery here nor any compliments. You've done a great job so far, and yes, my greed regarding the subject makes me audaciously ask you for more information, pictures, examples, etc. Keep up the great work, Sir! Worthy to note is that my specialization; along with yours, do complete the field of the study of Arab swords. Great job so far, Ibrahiim...more and more, please!

Thanks a lot in advance!

Ahmed Helal Hussein

[AhmedH]

Originally Posted by AhmedH

Salaams Ibrahiim,

I said nothing but the truth; no flattery here nor any compliments. You've done a great job so far, and yes, my greed regarding the subject makes me audaciously ask you for more information, pictures, examples, etc. Keep up the great work, Sir! Worthy to note is that my specialization; along with yours, do complete the field of the study of Arab swords. Great job so far, Ibrahiim...more and more, please!

Thanks a lot in advance!

Ahmed Helal Hussein

Whoops! I meant "do complete EACH OTHER in the field of Arab swords". Sorry for the typing error!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All~ The Al Ain Museum has a great collection of antiquities (and a particularly extensive and excellent section dedicated to archeology of the region... brilliantly carried out by the French Team)

In the weaponry section a display of "various types of swords"...and there amongst the different types is an Omani Battle Sword (Sayf Yamaani, 3rd from top) in this case adorned with 2 silver buttons at the cross guard and a silvered pommel. From memory I think it has a dot at the tip...last time I stood in front of that case was 1988.

The line up looks like Kattara, Quaddara, Sayf Yamaani, and some sort of Flysa.

Captured for posterity ... below.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all Note to library see http://www.omanisilver.com/contents/en-us/d363.html where a Voc Dutch ship on visiting Oman ...A comment by Padttbrugge a Dutchman is very interesting.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

This is a scoop!

Salaams All ~
I have searched high and low for a picture of H.M. Sultan Qaboos, the current Ruler with an Omani Battle Sword... and had all but given up... Readers may recall the sketch of Sultan Bargash with such a weapon in the late 19th C. I believe this picture is from about 1975.

Here is the Royal Hilt (see #8 also)...in worked silver with gold accoutrements to the scabbard. The Hilt is a derivative of the Omani Royal Khanjar hilt style designed by Sheherazad...in about 1850 by a wife of a previous Sultan.(she also designed the Turban shown here). Thus the battle sword achieved Royal recognition and with its special hilt it takes its honourable place in history.

Members may remember that the Omani Dancing Sword invented after the start of the current ruling Dynasty in 1744, was designed in broadsword form, with a conical hilt from the slavers curved Kattara sword, with sharp edges and a round tip like this weapon. In addition the Terrs shield was given over to the dancing sword from its place with this Battle Sword as a mark of respect and for the traditions and pageants (The Funun).

The Battle Sword blade is very rigid, wing shaped by cross section (not flat), razor sharp on both edges and in its ancient form often without fullers. The tip is rounded not pointed as the main technique, using a small buckler shield (Terrs) was for speed work , slashing and chopping.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All~ It is the sword above that Padttbrugge a member of a Dutch Ship which visited Muscat in 1672/3 describes down to fine detail of the scabbard and blade...The blade described as heavy and rigid..or not flexible...and of broadsword style.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The Omani Battle Sword...Sayf Yamaani...Suggesting a make location of Hadramaut.

I will try to post larger format... The single sword to right of group is a three dot at the throat blade and one at the tip. On the group picture the right hand weapon also has 3 dots at the throat... perhaps the dots indicate a superior maker...In the case of that sword it is silvered about the hilt ...in rather crude form and in an effort to give the sword the appearance of the Royal Hilt please see #8...from the style brought in by Said The Great (or his wife Sheherazad) All the blades are thick and non flexible with rounded tips...ideal for slash and chop behind a fast shield action ...shield (Terrs) is shown.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim thank you for posting these examples, and it is good to see this thread again and recall the great traction here in discovering more on these swords, their origins, and perspectives on the relationships in the developed forms.
The factor of the triple dots and single toward the tip on the blades is one of those mysterious conundrums in the study of these and a number of other forms that though often evident, is yet to be explained. The strategic placement of these suggests of course some sort of symbolic, perhaps even talismanic application which we can only surmise.

These 'battle swords' as we determined, while used in Omani regions indeed seems to often have been with notable Yemeni associations mostly for the blades, in many cases trade types having entered the southern Arabian peninsula from the west.

[Jens Nordlunde]

I can not get it clear what your pictures shows Ibrahiim, as I cant blow them up, but if I understand Jim correctly there are three dots at the beginning of the fuller, and three dots at the end of the fuller - is that correct?
If this is so, then it is seen on Indian blades as well.
Jens

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I can not get it clear what your pictures shows Ibrahiim, as I cant blow them up, but if I understand Jim correctly there are three dots at the beginning of the fuller, and three dots at the end of the fuller - is that correct?
If this is so, then it is seen on Indian blades as well.
Jens

Salaams Jens Nordlunde Yes the pictures I have battled with but I will get better pictures of these and the rest of a mixed Arabian Swords numbering perhaps 150 plus weapons..These came in on the phone...The 3 dots are just 3 inches in front of the guard on the blade at the throat . Occasionally only one dot...and I have seen 2 in the same position. A single dot can also be seen at the tip...about half an inch from the end.
I have it that these were to either mark a superior blade or made by a superior craftsman. There is always the possibility as noted by Jim above that these were talismanic ...The single dot being illustrative of the centre of the universe and the talismanic association with the geometric figure 3. There are interestingly three beads dangling from the end of sets of Islamic prayer beads said to prevent the devil climbing up....
I experimented with microsoft word and copying the pictures and placing on word then just expand the single blade and the three dots become visible... untill I can get better pictures...
I note that we have few pictures of these dots, however, at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=Omani+Swords there is a good 3 dot example on what was a snapped blade and kindly posted by Michael Blalock at #61.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Jens, exactly what I was thinking of, the placement of these three dots at key spots on the blade, I think it was tulwars at the terminus of a fuller, also at key points on the blade (I always thought of point of percussion etc.).
Naturally the thought is toward the trimurti (trinity) but again, only surmised.

With the Arab blades, it seems (per Yucel) that these gold filled holes in the blade were for good fortune or perhaps protection to the swordsman. It is unclear on the numbers as they seem to range from one to several, as well as the location on the blade.

What is interesting is that in North Africa, the most western sector of this trade network of blades, seems to have adopted the placement of filled holes with yellow metal as seen in a number of examples from Sudan into the Sahara. I need to find my notes as well as rechecking Yucel.

While not of course the main topic of this thread, which pertains to the sayf Yemeni overall, as always attending to certain subtopics like this can sometimes provide clues in the diffusion of blades and symbolic elements revealing contact and interaction between cultures.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Jens, exactly what I was thinking of, the placement of these three dots at key spots on the blade, I think it was tulwars at the terminus of a fuller, also at key points on the blade (I always thought of point of percussion etc.).
Naturally the thought is toward the trimurti (trinity) but again, only surmised.

With the Arab blades, it seems (per Yucel) that these gold filled holes in the blade were for good fortune or perhaps protection to the swordsman. It is unclear on the numbers as they seem to range from one to several, as well as the location on the blade.

What is interesting is that in North Africa, the most western sector of this trade network of blades, seems to have adopted the placement of filled holes with yellow metal as seen in a number of examples from Sudan into the Sahara. I need to find my notes as well as rechecking Yucel.

While not of course the main topic of this thread, which pertains to the sayf Yemeni overall, as always attending to certain subtopics like this can sometimes provide clues in the diffusion of blades and symbolic elements revealing contact and interaction between cultures.

Salaams Jim ...I saw a reference on this sword style where it indicates, I Quote"...According to David Alexander, one of the leading experts on Islamic arms and armour where he describes a related sword in the Nasser D.K Khalili Collection in the book "The Arts of War" by David Alexander, swords of this type were used in Oman and the Gulf area from 1000 A.D. until the17th-18th century and can be seen in early Arab paintings such as a miniature in a copy of the Maqamat of al-Hariri..."Unquote, however, I couldn't find the painting...of the miniature....

I don't altogether agree with the 18th C since we know the sword was in use after that as it is seen in a sketch of Sultan Bargash and in fact with the current Ruler ...in use certainly in the later case in its Royal Hilt form. Perhaps the reference above suggests that its use in wars was of those dates but there is no proof that it stopped being used after the 18th C.

I also question its start date as 11 th Century as it is not tied to anything ...and in which case simply would need to have appeared from nowhere? The earlier date is far more logical being tied to the former Abassiid style seen at the Topkapi and coincides with the first Imam of Oman Ibn Julanda in 751 ad... though my thought is that if it has origins in a Sword of the Prophet it may well be from around 600 ad...and certainly not the late appearance 400 years after....out of the blue...so to speak! In short I suggest that this weapon is by its very nature an Iconic Islamic Battlesword whos design stretches back to the 7th Century after which it froze...design wise until the mid 19th C when its hilt was redesigned with a Royal Hilt (but by no means in all cases) and even appears today as such...see earlier post at #69.

Could this weapon have been either introduced in 630 ad when Oman was converted en masse ...or by the exiled from Iraq Jabr Ibn Zayd who died in 711 ad and was a great leader from Nizwa region.....or by the first Imam of Oman in 751 ad ~I leave those questions penciled in the margin.

I remind readers that the absence of weapons in graves follows the tradition that items were and are not buried with bodies(in this case regrettably!) thus no sword has yet been found in a burial site save one apparently that was unearthed in Jebal Akhdar a few hundred years ago...

See an astonishing example with cartouche (I couldnt decipher) at http://www.trocadero.com/101antiques...tem747179.html Note the octagonal hilt and pommel as well as the three holes in the hilt...and the detail of zig zag decoration vvvvvvv on the cuff. Help is requested for a translation of that.

So that students of Islamic Arms and Armour can more easily see the relevant references I include from the above website Quote" REFERENSES:Askeri Museum Istanbul Turkey.inv.nos.2382 and 7620; for the latter see Alexandr 1985,no75 and Fig.4;other examples include Topkapi Sarayi Museum ,Istanbul,no1/2765;Wallace Collection, London England ,no1796;The Metropolitan Museum of Art,New York,no1987.43;and Splendeur des armes orientales 1988,no11 and Elgood, 1994,nos 2.13 and 2.15..MEASUREMENTS: The overall length is 87.7 cm (34 ½ in). Width of the blade at the widest point: 5.4 cm (2 1/16 inches)"Unquote.

As a finishing note please consider the name ...Sayf Yamaani. Omani names for weapons stuck... never changed... for example the Omani long gun.. Abu Futtila...thus in the naming of this sword Sayf Yamaani could this be an indicator for origin of manufacture; Hadramaut in Yemen.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All..Please see #1.

I wrote at #1 of a comparison with swords from Topkapi...and with the Omani Battle Sword "The Sayf Yamaani" that this thread discusses. Here are examples of those Topkapi weapons. So far as I am aware there are no weapons of Umayyid type ~these are Abassiid. I place Omani Battle Swords for reference..or others on this thread may be considered.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Kubur]

Hi Ibrahim,

During the 19th c., they call Abbasi swords all the Persian swords, now called shamshir. The swords of the Tokapi museum are probably from the 16th c.
But I agree with you, the Omani sword is a pure medieval shape.

Best,
Kubur

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All,

Please see Maqamat(Stories of Arabia) of al-Hariri on video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ud5nsWykhM and by moving the bar to 25:04 see the Omani Battle Sword around 1,000 years ago !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Ibrahim,

During the 19th c., they call Abbasi swords all the Persian swords, now called shamshir. The swords of the Tokapi museum are probably from the 16th c.
But I agree with you, the Omani sword is a pure medieval shape.

Best,
Kubur

Salaams Kubur,

Sword Dates. Not according to some of the most respected Islamic Sword specialists in the world they aren't. Try 8th or 9thC. I'm glad, however, that you agree on the medieval shape of The Sayf Yamaani..which is why I considered the two forms most carefully ...see #1.

Note; The Abbasid historical period lasting to the Mongol conquest of Baghdad in 1258 is considered the Islamic Golden Age. The Islamic Golden Age was inaugurated by the middle of the 8th century by the ascension of the Abbasid Caliphate and the transfer of the capital from Damascus to Baghdad.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All, and success with the hi tech shows the group of Sayf Yamaani for discussion. Three dots clearly seen at the throat of what seems to be a Royal Hilt (Iconic) Sayf Yamaani...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Another good clean shot of The Sayf Yamaani. The Omani Battle Sword.

[Gonzalo G]

Swords of Boabdil (Muhammad XII, Emir of Granada). In front, his jineta sword, a broadsword from the 15th Century. Seems related to your sword in some way. But much adorned, as for an Emir.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Swords of Boabdil (Muhammad XII, Emir of Granada). In front, his jineta sword, a broadsword from the 15th Century. Seems related to your sword in some way. But much adorned, as for an Emir.

Salaams Gonzalo G,
Whilst there may be some reflections from early Mamluke and even Sword of the Prophet similarity with the Spanish item I think it is only vaguely reminiscent however it is an excellent observation and I have included similar detail in the description below.

No one actually knows how old this old Omani Battle Sword is... The Sayf Yamaani, I suggest, predates Ibn Jalanda at the time Oman began to fight to remove the Abasiid from Oman in 751 AD...perhaps by 100 years.. but proving that is difficult.

Quote""The early Imamate in Oman arose out of a vision to create the true and ideal Muslim state. The first Ibadhi Imam, Julanda bin Mas'ud, was elected in 751 AD but he died in battle and it was not until 801 AD after a period of turmoil that Warith bin Kaab was elected. There then followed a period of peace, stability and prosperity lasting more than three hundred years".Unquote. The Omani people were converted following a letter delivered in 650 AD and it would make sense that if they were to fight for Islamic inclusion that a weapon with which to combat the invaders would be Iconic and thus I propose that this is a sword from that collection..or close to it.

As the name suggests Sayf Yamaani may be an early sword from the Hadramaut... further indication that a religious weapon from there was issued...and copied. This is not to suggest that all these swords are of that age... but that they continued to be produced perhaps in the famous iron foundry production around Nizwa.

The dates mentioned on the web are scattered all over the calendar from 1000 AD ...to the 19th C. The provenance on most is vague... and some try the Portuguese angle whilst others have different opinions... Iranian...etc

The difficulty arises in the fact that weapons were not buried with the dead in Islam although oddly one was dug up dating to about 18th or 19th C recently...

The Arts of the Muslim Knights gets it nearer reality at 1000 AD but that is not a proven birth date and an earlier date is just as likely, as I say, predating the 751AD Ibn Julanda situation..and pushes the weapon into range as one of the styles of Swords of The Prophet.

http://sword-site.com/thread/258/14t...-sword-kattara States OF A SOLD ITEM ~

Quote"Extremely rare antique Islamic Arab sword Kattara. Another similar Kattara sword is in the collection of the Furusiyya Art Foundation, this collection possesses very important Islamic Arms and Armour material, as described in the book-catalogue by the foundation, such important items are not to be found in other collections or museums. The title of this splendid book - catalog is, The Arts of the Muslim Knight – The Furusiyya Art Foundation Collection Concept and direction by Bashir Mohamed Printed and bound in Italy, First edition. Furthermore, the sword which we are proudly offering for sale is in an untouched condition with the Islamic calligraphic script, which the sword in The Furusiyya Art Foundation Collection does not have, so making this sword a real gem in any important collection of antique arms and armour or Islamic Art. REFERENSES: According to David Alexander, one of the leading experts on Islamic arms and armour where he describes a related sword in the Nasser D.K Khalili Collection in the book "The Arts of War" by David Alexander, swords of this type were used in Oman and the Gulf area from 1000 A.D. until the17th-18th century and can be seen in early Arab paintings such as a miniature in a copy of the Maqamat of al-Hariri, c.1225-35 A.D. For example an almost identical sword dated to the 12th-14th century is published in the Sotheby's catalogue of Islamic and Indian Art London 24-25 April 1991 lot 1113. The shape of the hilt became traditional in much of the Islamic world and can be seen for example in Nasrid swords of the 15th century, although this example has simple tubes in place of the dragon head quillons, it is probable that all ultimately derive from the sword of the Prophet. Since a sword was an expensive weapon and in the Islamic country the quality and the function of the sword was more important than the style or fashion, some types of swords continued to be popular for a century, for example the Persian Shamshir or Indian Talwar were used for a few hundred years and were passed from father to son and were used by the next generations, hence swords made earlier were still used after hundreds of years. DETAILS: An iron hilt with an octagonal grip attached to the tang by two rivets and a hole for the wrist strap with an octagonal peaked conical pommel showing remnants of silver inlay, the cross guard block is shoulder – shaped with down turned quillons. The blade is straight and is double-edged and has a cuff around its top, as most of these types of swords, and is decorated on the forte with a round medallion containing Arabic inscription. . REFERENSES:Askeri Museum Istanbul Turkey.inv.nos.2382 and 7620; for the latter see Alexandr 1985,no75 and Fig.4;other examples include Topkapi Sarayi Museum ,Istanbul,no1/2765;Wallace Collection, London England ,no1796;The Metropolitan Museum of Art,New York,no1987.43;and Splendeur des armes orientales 1988,no11 and Elgood, 1994,nos 2.13 and 2.15..MEASUREMENTS: The overall length is 87.7 cm (34 ½ in). Width of the blade at the widest point: 5.4 cm (2 1/16 inches)".Unquote

Source: http://www.trocadero.com/101antiques...tem747179.html

What the passage omits is that this is as far as I know the only stamped blade which may be Nizwa... I cannot read it. There are several Museum copies I know of including the Topkapi Askeri Museum and Al Ain Museum with a silvered hilt...(this weapon was awarded the Royal Hilt treatment in the reign of Saiid the Great the same hilt more or less as the Royal Khjanjar)and the TRM in Quwait; the Tareq Rajeb Museum that has one from me about 2 decades ago.

What I like about the picture below described above is the zig zag line at the base of the Hilt which almost forms a rectangle and the third hole near the pommel that was probably for the wrist strap. The circular stamp is very interesting.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

More. The right hand sword is the same as #82... Silvered up Iconised with the Royal style...

This weapon was used with the Terrs Shield.

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Gonzalo G,
Whilst there may be some reflections from early Mamluke and even Sword of the Prophet similarity with the Spanish item I think it is only vaguely reminiscent however it is an excellent observation and I have included similar detail in the description below.

The origin of the jineta sword, or even most of the sword types from the muslim area in the Iberic Peninsula, are not "Spanish", but have their origin in North Africa or possibly the Middle East, not counting the very early purchases of swords to the Franks. The jineta sword type was carried into Spain by the Zenete or Zenata berbers from the nation (or "tribe", if you prefer this colonialistic denomination) of the Banu Marin. What concerns me, is the origin of this sword, characterized by the downcurved quillons, the pommel in the form of a dome and the broad blade with a fuller on the first half. Probably the hilt went to further elaboration in the Iberic Peninsula, as the quillons being elongated and their ends sometimes flattened to give space for adornments, and the pommels also being more elaborated. Eliminating those late ornaments, what remains is a fighting sword with a little more than a vague resemblance to your sword.

I don't think those muslim swords from the Iberic Peninsula have anything to do with the early Mamluk swords or the Sword of the Prophet (which one?). Before the Banu Marin, there were influences from the Almohades, and before them the Almoravids, who penetrated in this Peninsula by request of the muslim rulers over there. All of them connected with the Sahara Desert and its trade routes. The origins and development of many types of swords from North Africa and the Arab countries is something to be explored. I don't believe in the simplistic explanation of the "European influence" whenever is found a resemblance with Europe's types of swords, and though the cross-polinization among cultures is undoubtedly a fact, we actually don't know for certain the genealogy of these weapons.
Regards

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

The origin of the jineta sword, or even most of the sword types from the muslim area in the Iberic Peninsula, are not "Spanish", but have their origin in North Africa or possibly the Middle East, not counting the very early purchases of swords to the Franks. The jineta sword type was carried into Spain by the Zenete or Zenata berbers from the nation (or "tribe", if you prefer this colonialistic denomination) of the Banu Marin. What concerns me, is the origin of this sword, characterized by the downcurved quillons, the pommel in the form of a dome and the broad blade with a fuller on the first half. Probably the hilt went to further elaboration in the Iberic Peninsula, as the quillons being elongated and their ends sometimes flattened to give space for adornments, and the pommels also being more elaborated. Eliminating those late ornaments, what remains is a fighting sword with a little more than a vague resemblance to your sword.

I don't think those muslim swords from the Iberic Peninsula have anything to do with the early Mamluk swords or the Sword of the Prophet (which one?). Before the Banu Marin, there were influences from the Almohades, and before them the Almoravids, who penetrated in this Peninsula by request of the muslim rulers over there. All of them connected with the Sahara Desert and its trade routes. The origins and development of many types of swords from North Africa and the Arab countries is something to be explored. I don't believe in the simplistic explanation of the "European influence" whenever is found a resemblance with Europe's types of swords, and though the cross-polinization among cultures is undoubtedly a fact, we actually don't know for certain the genealogy of these weapons.
Regards

I dont disagree ...nor do I agree since both sides used the same weapon; The Christians developing it after it had been used against them by the Moors. Thus I used the generic name Spanish and since they were produced in Toledo in addition.

I agree that these swords carry similarities to the Old Sayf Yamaani but that it may simply be coincidental. The link may be in the influence of Swords of The Prophet which I think numbered about 7... of which examples are at Topkapi Museum.

The Sayf Yamaani appears to predate the Jineta by a few hundred years.

I would like to see all the information on the Jineta brought into focus and with its own consolidated thread so a good look can be made of the weapon...

PLEASE SEE http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=JINETA+SWORD which is I think our only Library reference on this weapon.

Perhaps you would like to take that on... Naturally I would be in full support and I am sure others would chip in...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gonzalo G]

Ok, I saw the link to that discussion. And your post, three years latter. And your post over there answer my question. I just tried to know what is your opinion on the possible relation of both types of swords, and not to bring all the information on the jineta sword.

The term "Spanish" is derivated from "Spain". And Spain didn't exist in that time (15th Century), as "India" didn't exist before the British. Only a conglomerate of rival christian kingdoms speaking different languages and, of course Al-Andalus, and after it, the muslim Emirates (the "Taifa") and lastly, the Emirate of Granada. Spain is not a territory, but a nation state. But this political matter is not important in this discussion, so thank you for your opinion on the subject of the swords.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Ok, I saw the link to that discussion. And your post, three years latter. And your post over there answer my question. I just tried to know what is your opinion on the possible relation of both types of swords, and not to bring all the information on the jineta sword.

The term "Spanish" is derivated from "Spain". And Spain didn't exist in that time (15th Century), as "India" didn't exist before the British. Only a conglomerate of rival christian kingdoms speaking different languages and, of course Al-Andalus, and after it, the Muslim Emirates (the "Taifa") and lastly, the Emirate of Granada. Spain is not a territory, but a nation state. But this political matter is not important in this discussion, so thank you for your opinion on the subject of the swords.

Salaams, Perhaps I will open the thread on this weapon since we have hardly a page of detail on Library. The history of the region is very interesting not least the potential for discussion of Jinetas in this regard.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I HAVE A BETTER IDEA ... WHY DONT WE CONTINUE THE EXISTING THREAD ...Its only about one page thus, I suggest expanding on this simply by bringing it on !! Here goes....

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.