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#61 |
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Centerville, Kansas
Posts: 2,196
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Well, here is what looks like a small crocodile jaw bone dagger. It is approximately 10 inches in length. The photos make it looks extremely bleached out but I think that it is most likely because of the flash. What do the experts think, is this croc or not?
Robert |
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#62 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
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I HAVE SEEN SOME THAT LOOK LIKE THIS MADE RECENTLY IN THE USA FROM ALIGATOR JAWS. USUALLY YOU CAN SEE WHERE POWER TOOLS, SAWS AND GRINDERS HAVE BEEN USED ON THESE. I DON'T THINK IT WAS MADE IN NEW GUINEA OR FROM CROC JAW BUT COULD BE WRONG. I DON'T KNOW IF THE NATIVE AMERICAN TRIBES MADE SUCH DAGGERS IN THE OLD DAYS BUT THE GATORS WERE VERY NUMEROUS THEN SO IT IS POSSIBLE.
THE GATOR JAWS AND SKULLS ARE USUALLY CLEANED WITH STRONG BLEACH SO IF IT LOOKS BLEACHED WHITE ( AS IT APEARS IN THE PICTURES) THAT IS ANOTHER THING TO LOOK FOR. THE NEW GATOR JAW KNIVES ARE NEAT BUT NOT REALLY ETHINOGRAPHIC BUT IT IS GOOD TO SEE ONE IN THIS POST FOR COMPARASON. Last edited by VANDOO; 25th October 2013 at 01:32 AM. |
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#63 |
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Centerville, Kansas
Posts: 2,196
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Thank you very much for your opinion and information. I will look for the telltale marks left by power tools when it arrives. If it does not show any of these signs if you would like I could send it to you for a first hand look at it and final evaluation. Thanks again.
Robert |
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#64 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
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PICTURES
#1,#2 & #3. BONE DAGGER WITH ARM BAND KWOMA TRIBE, SEPIK PAPUA NEW GUINEA. 21 CM. LONG DAGGER #4. AZMAT BARBED DAGGER 12 INCHES LONG |
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#65 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
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#1. #2, #3. ABELAM DAGGERS
#4. CASSOWARY BONE DAGGER WITH CASSOWARY HEAD POMMEL. #5, #6. #7. BONE DAGGER, 13.5 IN.L. #8. BONE DAGGER Last edited by VANDOO; 24th March 2014 at 09:26 PM. |
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#66 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,712
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An Asmat dagger from human bone!
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#67 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
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HERE ARE A FEW MORE EXAMPLES TO ADD TO THE REFERENCE.
![]() #1. THRU #5, 16.75 IN., ABELAM TRIBE,WORSA REGION, CASSOWARY BONE DAGGER,CARVED BIRD POMMEL #6. 6 ABELAM DAGGER FROM BOOK #7. THRU # 10, 38 CM. ABELAM DAGGER CARVED BIRD POMMEL #11. SENTANAI, BONE DAGGER #. 12 PICTURE OF TWO DAGGERS IN THE MUSEUM IN BUDAPEST. Last edited by VANDOO; 17th November 2014 at 06:57 PM. |
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#68 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
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TWO MORE PICTURES OF #11 SENTANAI DAGGER IN ABOVE POST.
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#69 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
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HERE IS SOMETHING THAT SOLD RECENTLY ON EBAY. IT HAS A WOOD BLADE AND A VERTEBRAE OF SOME SORT ATTACHED TO THE TOP WITH FIBER. I SUSPECT IT IS RECENT MADE AND MAY OR MAY NOT BE A TRUE ETHNOGRAPHIC DAGGER. IT CERTAINLY DOESN'T QUALIFY AS A BONE DAGGER IN MY BOOK BUT GOOD FOR REFRENCE.
13.5 INCH LONG WOOD BLADE BONE VERTEBRAE POMMEL. SAID TO BE FROM THE CASSOWARY BUT WHO KNOWS? |
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#70 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
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A FEW MORE NEW GUINEA BONE ITEMS.
#1. & #2. EAST SEPIK, ARAPESH AREA TOOL USED AT YAM FEASTS, 8 IN. LONG . #3. & #4. ASMAT BEFORE 1950, 14.5 IN. LONG #5 THRU #7 ABELAM, PNG BEFORE 1950, 10.5 IN. LONG Last edited by VANDOO; 24th January 2015 at 03:18 AM. |
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#71 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
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A FEW MORE EXAMPLES
#1. & #2. SHORT DAGGER 17 CM. LONG, KUBALIA AREA NEW GUINEA #3. #4, & #5. WESTERN SEPIK, PRE-CONTACT 28 CM. LONG. POSSIBLY MADE FROM HUMAN BONE I WOULD GUESS UPPER ARM BONE (HUMERUS) #6. TWO EXAMPLES FROM THE BUDAPEST MUSEUM CATALOG. Last edited by VANDOO; 11th March 2015 at 06:06 AM. |
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#72 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
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#1. & #2. CROCODILE JAW DAGGER 18.5 INCHES LONG
#3. ABELAM, 32.5 CM. LONG #4, #5, & #6. ABELAM 39 CM. LONG #7. 40 CM. LONG BOKIN BONE DAGGER |
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#73 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
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#1. 19 CM. ABELAM BONE DAGGER
#2. 25 CM. ABELAM BONE DAGGER #3. 11 IN., 28CM. l. AZMAT BONE DAGGER #4. 47 CM./ 18.5 INCHES AZMAT CROCODILE JAW DAGGER #5. 38 CM. AZMAT DAGGER #6. 40 CM. AZMAT DAGGER #7. WOSERA BONE DAGGER, 30 CM. #8 & #9. AITAPE BONE DAGGER, 31 CM. #10, #11, & #12. 35 CM. BONE DAGGER MIDDLE SEPIK. Last edited by VANDOO; 12th May 2015 at 09:47 PM. |
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#74 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
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A FEW MORE EXAMPLES RECENT AND VINTAGE.
#1. AZMAT 12.5 INCHES LONG TRADITIONAL GRIP #2., #3 & #4. RECENT ITEM WITH CASSOWARY BONE, CLAWS AND FEATHERS. #5 & #6. RECENT CASSOWARY BONE DAGGER WITH SHEITH. #7. THREE IATMUAL PAY BACK DAGGERS. #8. 36 CM. LONG PNG #9, #10 & #11. 44CM. OR 17.5 INCH CROCODILE DAGGER AZMAT PAPUA APPEARS TO BE MORE RECENT THAN SOME. Last edited by VANDOO; 23rd July 2015 at 05:31 AM. |
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#75 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
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TWO MORE VARIATIONS OF NEW GUINEA BONE DAGGERS ONE 15.5 IN AND ONE 8 INCHES LONG. THE LONGER ONE COULD BE A LIME STICK.
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#76 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
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#1. AZMAT, NORTH WEST COAST NEW GUINEA
#2. TWO NICE EXAMPLES OF THE DAGGERS WITH FACES |
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#77 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
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#1. ABELAM 7 IN. LONG
#2. ABELAM 7.5 IN. LONG #3. THRU #6. ABELAM 16 INCHES LONG. #7 THRU # 9. ABELAM 37 CM. LONG #10 THRU #12. ITAMUL, 12 INCH, ORCHID FIBER HANDLE AND SHEATH. |
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#78 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
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THREE NEW GUINEA BONE DAGGERS CASSOWARY BONE GOOD AGE AND PATINA
17 CM, 20 CM AND 24 CM. |
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#79 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
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#1. 26 CM. LONG THIN DAGGER OR LIME STICK, SEPIK AREA
#2. & #3. & #4. 32 CM. LONG WOOD SEPIK DAGGER #5. & #6. CROCODILE JAW DAGGER 19 CM. NEW GUINEA |
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#80 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
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A FEW MORE EXAMPLES.
#1. & #2. 27 INCH AZMAT CASSOWARY BONE DAGGER #3. & #4. 33 CM. CASSOWARY BONE DAGGER |
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#81 |
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,186
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I did not realize the full range of artwork on these daggers!
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#82 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 93
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I picked up a couple that belong in this thread, One cassowary and one from a person. I know little about these cultures so if anyone has any opinions about the engraving styles and their origin please share. As I understand it human bone daggers were taken from the skeleton of an honored ancestor rather than the victims of cannibalism. Such daggers are quite rare, a survey off American museums found 21 out of 499 daggers to be from human bones. The human one has a deep covering of soot with the orange patina of the bone peeking through. I hope this does not offend anyone, we all draw the line somewhere and we all end up as bones
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#83 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: What is still UK
Posts: 5,771
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You got me thinking about my bone dagger, as to whether it is a human femur or not. I found this good anatomy tutorial. If you follow it carefully even though my dagger has been carved there is still enough anatomical detail left to assume it is probably the femur of the right leg. The details are in the distal femur. The medial & lateral condyles, medial adductor tubercle and more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi0cOvuhsa8 |
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#84 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: What is still UK
Posts: 5,771
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It fits my leg.
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#85 | |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,712
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![]() Quote:
Regards, Detlef |
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#86 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: What is still UK
Posts: 5,771
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I am only sumising from the online femur anatomy lessons.
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#87 |
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Mother North
Posts: 189
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Cool dagger, Tim! I found this article exploring the difference in daggers from human vs. cssowary material: https://www.livescience.com/62399-hu...e-daggers.html
Cheers, Thor |
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#88 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
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It's not easy to differentiate between cassowary and human bone, one picture in the link Thor posted shows it good.
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#89 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: What is still UK
Posts: 5,771
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Assuming that is the be all knowledge of PNG bone daggers, which I very much doubt.
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#90 | |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,712
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![]() Quote:
Another point is the feel and colour, like said, it's not easy. Regards, Detlef |
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