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#61 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
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Yes ... Sir
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#62 | |
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There are a lot of similarities with these East West African weapons...My problem is that on the first page typically we have about six Ethiopian, Hausa Tuareg variants... For Forum Panel consideration...Would it be better ...do you think... to have all these Atlantic to Red Sea swords on the same big thread so that cross referencing can be simple and since much of the detail is interrelated through all the different alphabet and hieroglyph additions, local blade smith marks and origins of European species etc ? ... There are such similarities that are so easily missed when the subject is fractured all over the different pages on Ethnographic ...One mega thread would solve this in an instant... and research, study and informed detail would be transformed ... Another way to do it would be a new thread ...A comparison of Red Sea to Atlantic weapons ...Ethiopian, Tuareg, Berber, Hausa Ashanti....( I leave it to Forum how this may be worded ) Ibrahiim al Balooshi Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 25th May 2016 at 02:29 PM. |
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#63 |
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I'm not sure if that last character is a poorly stamped A or M, but up close it looks like it might be something else altogether.
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#64 | |
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#65 |
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I'm still cleaning the pommel off but so far it looks a lot like the Pommel on the one Ian posted above
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#66 | |
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It's defined by the peaked mid ridge, often the use of a small bronze cap and engraved lateral plate. A transition from the oldest rounded pommels. |
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#67 |
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Are there any examples of the type of stamp used by European and African Smiths? ....It occurred to me that the Europeans used stamps but the African style looks like one chisel and mallet combination only...not stamps...and or...that African work was often scratched on. not stamped. It also looks like European letters had the small tails at the ends of uprights but African capitals did not. Am I right in thinking that European work was stamped whilst the blade was hot...and not a method used by African smiths...resulting in mis strikes and less depth to the strike??
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#68 |
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The blade could also be from a Dussack Ca 1570/80.
Last edited by Tordenskiold1721; 26th May 2016 at 04:51 PM. |
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#69 |
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I should mention the upper half of this sword is double edged. This might be an alteration made in Africa but it seems to me it was made this way.
Another unusual feature is the fuller at the bottom of the ricosso. I don't recall seeing any other backswords with a fuller there. |
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#70 |
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The best way to understand the swords in the Sahel and environs is to see http://iainnorman.com/
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#71 | |
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Well done Ibrahiim!! Perfect link to Iain's site, and the terrific insight into the weapons and culture of the Tuareg's and surrounding tribal groups. Anyone collecting or interested in these arms definitely needs to read these detailed and observant essays and notes. |
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#72 | |
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#73 | |
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Missed strikes and depth are down to how much care, attention and force is being used. Keep in mind the sort of blade we are looking at here is of a munitions standard, widely produced and exported for a range of types as nicely illustrated by Tordenskiold1721. These were made in bulk in forges using water powered trip hammers, grinding wheels etc. and it was very much an industry turning out a very high volume of product. While it is my understanding that certain European proof marks were stamped cold, usually blade stamps of the age we are looking at were applied hot. Personally I think that some stamps were used in an African context due to the appearance of certain marks on blades that are of inferior quality and likely to be locally made. If you want to browse http://takouba.org/catalog/index.php...moon-stamps/24 you'll find plenty of material in terms of comparing many swords with the same motif but some are obviously done in Europe and others in an African context. I haven't done an exhaustive comparison of the details myself as my interests have generally been on other aspects. But to put it simply, I think some stamps, perhaps even sourced from Europe were around in local blade making centers in Africa like Sokoto, Kano etc. Outside of that engraving is more common and you will see this (again if we use the half moons as an example) quite often being used to imitate actual stamps. |
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#74 | |
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#75 | |
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In your experience, with other converted backswords are they reshaped all the way down to the ricasso or have you seen others that are double edge for just the top half of the blade? The reason I'm curious is that the double edge part of the blade has a nice symmetrical oval cross section. If it was a conversion I'd expect the shape to still look like a backsword someone filed the spine off of rather than a properly shaped double edged sword. Also, I've seen a couple schiavona backswords that are double sided for the upper 1/4th of the blade. I haven't seen one 1/2 double sided, though. For instance, http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...78&postcount=9 Last edited by blue lander; 27th May 2016 at 02:55 PM. |
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#76 | |
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#77 | |
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Thank you, Teodor |
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#78 | |
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There are times I struggle to write due to a lack of inspiration and ideas. This thread is a bright spot in what is often a figurative desert with most extant examples being modern. It's really due to members like blue lander being willing to share their examples that I've written anything at all. For me the heart of weapons study will always be seeing as many examples as possible. Very little attention was devoted by previous researchers to the overall story of the takouba and its form, with more concern being paid to the European blade aspect or more ethnographic interests in leather work, current usage etc. All very valid and helpful areas of study but my passion has always been and still is the early moments of the takouba, where it came from, what the relation to other sword forms is, how it came to be an isolated and relatively preserved over time. Without folks like yourself to encourage me, I'd be tempted at times to give up and figure there's not much left to uncover. Thankfully this forum is a major aid in stimulating discussion and driving my passion forward. I'm truly grateful my attempts to shine a light on this obscure topic have been helpful. |
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#79 | |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
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Perhaps is best that the threads author agrees with this merging. What do you say, blue lander ? ... and by the way, this merging exercises are not so often done; i hope this one works properly ![]() |
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#80 |
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Yup, I agree one thread makes more sense
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#81 |
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Done.
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