Turkish Shamshir - Page 3

O. Baskurt · 22nd October 2015, 06:50 PM

Hello Miguel very nice protected piece you have here belongs to time Sultan 2nd Abdülhamid times there was a cavalary unit called Ertuğrul Alayı and this sword we call in Turkey as Ertuğrul Alayı Kılıcı ( Sword of Ertuğrul Alayı) has a definitive crossguard is speacially made for this cavalary unit and hilt is slighly different ( but very smiliar ) than usual pear shaped pommel and blade is different than late period kilij and also used in another regions of Ottoman too. as i see the blade is as well original staying in your piece

with Best regards
O. Baskurt

estcrh · 22nd October 2015, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I will, do you have the page number? Or I have to look at the whole chapter?
I suggest to read also Alexander and Zaki.

I am told that particular quote on the saif may be around page 10.

Miguel · 22nd October 2015, 09:24 PM

WOW, When I posted this thread I never dreamed it would develop as it has. I am only a simple collector who wished confirmation of the sword which was answered in the first couple of replies, amazing how the subject changes but very interesting if not somewhat confusing for someone with only a little knowledge like me. This is what I like about this forum I learn something every time I log on.
I googled all the sword type names i.e. Kilij, Saif and Shamshir etc. to seek clarification but I can tell you that every thing contained in the thread could be found. I think that. for myself, I am better sticking to the name the sword conjures up in my mind otherwise it becomes to confusing.
Thank you everyone for your comments and time.
Regards
Miguel
ps Can anyone translate the blade stamp.

Kubur · 23rd October 2015, 10:32 AM

Hi Miguel,

One very similar, I would say 1850ties, probably from an officer in the artillery.
have a look at the beautiful Persian blade!

Best,
Kubur

Miguel · 23rd October 2015, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O. Baskurt

Hello Miguel very nice protected piece you have here belongs to time Sultan 2nd Abdülhamid times there was a cavalary unit called Ertuğrul Alayı and this sword we call in Turkey as Ertuğrul Alayı Kılıcı ( Sword of Ertuğrul Alayı) has a definitive crossguard is speacially made for this cavalary unit and hilt is slighly different ( but very smiliar ) than usual pear shaped pommel and blade is different than late period kilij and also used in another regions of Ottoman too. as i see the blade is as well original staying in your piece

with Best regards
O. Baskurt

Hello Mr Baskurt and thank you for your very interesting and informative comments regarding my sword. I would ask you to forgive my lack of knowledge of Turkish history and would be grateful if you would be kind enough to advise me of the date that Sultan 2nd Abdulhamid ruled, also do you know what the blade stamp reads.
Best regards
Miguel

Miguel · 23rd October 2015, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Miguel,

One very similar, I would say 1850ties, probably from an officer in the artillery.
have a look at the beautiful Persian blade!

Best,
Kubur

Hi Kubur, Thanks for sharing this sword it is a beauty. I always have a problem with the patterns different techniques produce on the blade surface, impaired vision problems, and would be grateful if you would tell me if the pattern on your blade is Damascus or Wootz or other.
Best regards
Miguel

O. Baskurt · 23rd October 2015, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hello Mr Baskurt and thank you for your very interesting and informative comments regarding my sword. I would ask you to forgive my lack of knowledge of Turkish history and would be grateful if you would be kind enough to advise me of the date that Sultan 2nd Abdulhamid ruled, also do you know what the blade stamp reads.
Best regards
Miguel

Well i can not read the stamp because we are not using the same alphabet anymore it might be Arabic writings but i will download picture and will show my historician friends some of them know Ottoman language ( well it is basically nowadays turkish with mixture of persian and arabian but alphabet is Arabic ) about the date end of 19th century and beginning of 20th century it is not very long ago as Kubur showed i think his blade is more older than yours and kubur's sword maybe dressed in that fashion later on because this type used in Ottoman provinces except that unit and as well as some pashas ( lord of Ottoman ) of that time has this type of sword with gold and silver inlays and your blade is really significant type of that unit it has a slightly yelman (false edge) and 2 grooves 1 small 1 big so i can say all examples till nowadays from that unit shows the same exactly the same type with your sword

with my best regards
O. Baskurt

estcrh · 23rd October 2015, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Miguel,

One very similar, I would say 1850ties, probably from an officer in the artillery.
have a look at the beautiful Persian blade!

Best,
Kubur

I was thinking of the same sword, here are a couple different images that may show the damascus blade a little better.

Miguel · 25th October 2015, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O. Baskurt

Well i can not read the stamp because we are not using the same alphabet anymore it might be Arabic writings but i will download picture and will show my historician friends some of them know Ottoman language ( well it is basically nowadays turkish with mixture of persian and arabian but alphabet is Arabic ) about the date end of 19th century and beginning of 20th century it is not very long ago as Kubur showed i think his blade is more older than yours and kubur's sword maybe dressed in that fashion later on because this type used in Ottoman provinces except that unit and as well as some pashas ( lord of Ottoman ) of that time has this type of sword with gold and silver inlays and your blade is really significant type of that unit it has a slightly yelman (false edge) and 2 grooves 1 small 1 big so i can say all examples till nowadays from that unit shows the same exactly the same type with your sword

with my best regards
O. Baskurt

Hello Mr Baskurt, Thank you very much for your reply. The information you have provided has been most informative, all I need now to put "the icing on the cake" is a translation of the stamp. Thank you once again.
Best regards
Miguel

Miguel · 25th October 2015, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

I was thinking of the same sword, here are a couple different images that may show the damascus blade a little better.

Absolutely Wonderful sword, what a beautiful blade.
Regards
Miguel

O. Baskurt · 25th October 2015, 06:14 PM

about the stamp it is maker's insignia i guess one answer i get is it is written "Muhammed or Mehmet" in the middle of stamp but of course they said it is hard to read can you maybe provide a better photo with 90 degree angle to it ?

estcrh · 25th October 2015, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I will, do you have the page number? Or I have to look at the whole chapter?
I suggest to read also Alexander and Zaki.

Kuber, any luck finding that quote in Elgoods book? It should be on or near page 10 from what I was told.

Kubur · 25th October 2015, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Kuber, any luck finding that quote in Elgoods book? It should be on or near page 10 from what I was told.

Hi,
yes the chapter on the swords starts page 10.
But there are a lot of things. What are you looking for exactly??
Best,

estcrh · 25th October 2015, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi,
yes the chapter on the swords starts page 10.
But there are a lot of things. What are you looking for exactly??
Best,

Can you verify if this quote was correctly copied and are there any other brief mentions of saif? Thanks!

Quote:

The curved sword or sabre, known as a saif was usually locally made and derived from Persia from where it was imported or from Egypt, Iraq and Syria. These countries imitated the Persian blade form and adopted the technology.

Kubur · 31st October 2015, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Can you verify if this quote was correctly copied and are there any other brief mentions of saif? Thanks!

Hi,
Sorry for the dealy that's correct and its page 10.
Then he talks about the nimcha. But this story of saif and shamshir is much more complicated. For me the sabre is something from the East, coming to Middle East with the Moghols at the end of the 13th c.
best,
Kubur

Kubur · 31st October 2015, 08:17 PM

Hi Miguel,
Here is mine, less sexy than yours but still Ottoman end of 19th or very early 20th c.
Best Kubur

estcrh · 31st October 2015, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi,
Sorry for the dealy that's correct and its page 10.
Then he talks about the nimcha. But this story of saif and shamshir is much more complicated. For me the sabre is something from the East, coming to Middle East with the Moghols at the end of the 13th c.
best,
Kubur

Thanks Kuber, there is a lot of conflicting references on saif, hard to tell which is correct. As for the introduction of curved swords here is a reference.

Mamluk Costume: A Survey, Leo Ary Mayer, 1952.

estcrh · 1st November 2015, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Miguel,
Here is mine, less sexy than yours but still Ottoman end of 19th or very early 20th c.
Best Kubur

Kuber, a nice and rare example, the end of an era, yours must be close to the time period of the transition to a more European military sword.

Miguel · 3rd December 2015, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O. Baskurt

about the stamp it is maker's insignia i guess one answer i get is it is written "Muhammed or Mehmet" in the middle of stamp but of course they said it is hard to read can you maybe provide a better photo with 90 degree angle to it ?

Hello Mr Baskurt,

I have only just noticed that I have missed your last reply and would like to apologise for this oversight, I hope you did not think that I ignored it deliberately.
I can only put it down to getting old and forgetful and trust you will accept my apology. Thank you for the information re the blade stamp and I will try and provide a clearer photo of it once I have received my PC from the repairers and it is up and running.
Best regards
Miguel

O. Baskurt · 4th December 2015, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hello Mr Baskurt,

I have only just noticed that I have missed your last reply and would like to apologise for this oversight, I hope you did not think that I ignored it deliberately.
I can only put it down to getting old and forgetful and trust you will accept my apology. Thank you for the information re the blade stamp and I will try and provide a clearer photo of it once I have received my PC from the repairers and it is up and running.
Best regards
Miguel

Hi Miguel nope don't worry at all that i didn't offend

by the way i am waiting for a clearer photo to see i will check the forum time by time
with my respects
O. Baskurt

Miguel · 10th December 2015, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hello Mr Baskurt,

I have only just noticed that I have missed your last reply and would like to apologise for this oversight, I hope you did not think that I ignored it deliberately.
I can only put it down to getting old and forgetful and trust you will accept my apology. Thank you for the information re the blade stamp and I will try and provide a clearer photo of it once I have received my PC from the repairers and it is up and running.
Best regards
Miguel

Hello Mr Baskurt,
I have now had my PC returned but regret that I cannot obtain a clearer image of the stamp, probably due to my ineptitude with a camera, sorry but it looks like the stamp we've got will have to suffice.
Regards
Miguel

Sylektis · 10th December 2015, 10:13 PM

What about this one?

Kubur · 11th December 2015, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sylektis

What about this one?

Hi Sylektis,
I would say the same family, second part of 19th c.
Completely Turkish ottoman, even if it belongs to your Greek ancestors.

PS: Your photos in the other thread on belts are amazing. Thanks.
Kubur

Sylektis · 11th December 2015, 05:36 PM

In Greece, we make no weapons,we prefer to decorate them.
(Make art, no war!)

Miguel · 13th December 2015, 03:48 PM

What a beautiful Kalij, thank you for sharing.
Miguel

O. Baskurt · 13th December 2015, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hello Mr Baskurt,
I have now had my PC returned but regret that I cannot obtain a clearer image of the stamp, probably due to my ineptitude with a camera, sorry but it looks like the stamp we've got will have to suffice.
Regards
Miguel

Hi Miguel that's alright whenever you are suitable we can return onto it to make deep research
with my respects
O. Baskurt

eftihis · 13th December 2015, 08:11 PM

Scabbard parts from 3 swords of this type, found in Greece.

22nd October 2015, 06:50 PM	#61
O. Baskurt Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 11	Hello Miguel very nice protected piece you have here belongs to time Sultan 2nd Abdülhamid times there was a cavalary unit called Ertuğrul Alayı and this sword we call in Turkey as Ertuğrul Alayı Kılıcı ( Sword of Ertuğrul Alayı) has a definitive crossguard is speacially made for this cavalary unit and hilt is slighly different ( but very smiliar ) than usual pear shaped pommel and blade is different than late period kilij and also used in another regions of Ottoman too. as i see the blade is as well original staying in your piece with Best regards O. Baskurt Last edited by O. Baskurt; 22nd October 2015 at 10:46 PM.

23rd October 2015, 10:32 AM	#64
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Miguel, One very similar, I would say 1850ties, probably from an officer in the artillery. have a look at the beautiful Persian blade! Best, Kubur Attached Images

31st October 2015, 08:17 PM	#76
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Miguel, Here is mine, less sexy than yours but still Ottoman end of 19th or very early 20th c. Best Kubur Attached Images

10th December 2015, 10:13 PM	#82
Sylektis Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 136	What about this one? Attached Images

11th December 2015, 05:36 PM	#84
Sylektis Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 136	In Greece, we make no weapons,we prefer to decorate them. (Make art, no war!) Attached Images

22nd October 2015, 09:24 PM	#63
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	WOW, When I posted this thread I never dreamed it would develop as it has. I am only a simple collector who wished confirmation of the sword which was answered in the first couple of replies, amazing how the subject changes but very interesting if not somewhat confusing for someone with only a little knowledge like me. This is what I like about this forum I learn something every time I log on. I googled all the sword type names i.e. Kilij, Saif and Shamshir etc. to seek clarification but I can tell you that every thing contained in the thread could be found. I think that. for myself, I am better sticking to the name the sword conjures up in my mind otherwise it becomes to confusing. Thank you everyone for your comments and time. Regards Miguel ps Can anyone translate the blade stamp.

25th October 2015, 06:14 PM	#71
O. Baskurt Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 11	about the stamp it is maker's insignia i guess one answer i get is it is written "Muhammed or Mehmet" in the middle of stamp but of course they said it is hard to read can you maybe provide a better photo with 90 degree angle to it ?

13th December 2015, 03:48 PM	#85
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	What a beautiful Kalij, thank you for sharing. Miguel

13th December 2015, 08:11 PM	#87
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Scabbard parts from 3 swords of this type, found in Greece. Attached Images