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#31 |
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: between work and sleep
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![]() ![]() I have almost nothing to add... I know so little about this area but I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion. So, thanks guys. |
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#32 |
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Join Date: Jun 2009
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Hi PepperSkull,
Just thought I'd point out that the term "kuntao" is Chinese in origin, and would probably not be used by the Moro to describe their own arts. It is the same as "kune do" in Jeet Kune Do. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuntao |
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#33 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
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hi harimauhk, thanks for that post. didn't know that.
this will be pure speculation on my part, as research still needs to be done: given the fact that the chinese influenced the moros a lot, especially the tausugs (i.e., the people of sulu), then perhaps chinese martial arts somehow influenced the tausugs also. even that signature everyday jacket-vest ("chaleco") of the moros is thought to be of chinese influence, for instance. and of course everybody knows about the chinese-markings-stamped barungs. another anecdotal evidence -- one of the most prominent filipino historians today is prof. (dr.) samuel k. tan. he is actually tausug! and yet he is a protestant. talking about cross-pollination! ![]() Quote:
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#34 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
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![]() ![]() on the non-documentation of things by our forefathers, i think it's a case to case basis. because as i'm sure you also know, the so-called "philippine insurgent records" (the term used by the americans for those docs gathered during the occupation period) are literally several tons of papers (gathered from the fleeing phil. forces from 1898 up to their surrender). they continue to be a treasure trove of info for researchers here in manila. but you are definitely right that other than those bunch of very impt. papers, there's nothing much original (i.e., written by filipinos themselves). of course we do have the spaniards' accounts, via those parchment records. there's that built-in bias in their reporting understandably. but as one author said, there are "cracks in the parchment curtain" (cf. iron and bamboo curtains of ussr and china). thus we still can see what the true picture was, through the "cracks", in spite of the state-controlled reporting. also we do have a lot of myths and epics, passed down through generations via oral tradition. for sure there's a lot of hyperbole and other exaggerations in there. but still our peoples' way of life (including their weapons) are well-preserved in those epics and legends. on martial arts, i agree with you that the reason why the teachers don't put that in writing is for fear that they might get stolen. i mean if your life depended on it, why give away the ace up your sleeve? on the other hand, those battles are things of the past (well mostly). hence i think filipino martial arts (fma) schools everywhere should agree that they should divulge all their secrets to one another. and the common objective is to take the martial arts to a new level. i know that is easier said than done. but if fma is to be made even better, then the old mind set has to be thrown out the window ... just my two cent(avos) ![]() |
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#35 |
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
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This also happened to many Chinese martial arts as well and thus a lot of knowledge has been lost over the years as well.
Also, just to make it clear, there has been trade and Chinese in the Philippines for a 1000 years or more. |
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#36 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
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![]() And what's good is that the Chinese like to put things in writing. Thus the Chinese records dating back to more than a thousand years ago (describing trade with the Philippines -- the Chinese were not interested in conquest, they're in for the trade) continue to be excellent source materials in the reconstruction of our country's precolonial past. |
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#37 |
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Join Date: Jun 2009
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Yep, the Chinese influence is evident in the Phils, particularly more recent influence. I was surprised to see dim sum for sale everywhere and I bought some hopia at Goldilocks without realizing they're traditionally served at Chinese weddings! Filipino culture really is such a hodgepodge of cultures.
The Chinese did indeed take good records of their impressions of foreign lands. I've come across a few in the last year or so and they were very interesting. I didn't know the Chinese had had a significant influence on the Moros and Tausugs though! |
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#38 | |
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#39 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Torrance
Posts: 49
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I am teacher of a FMA system that comes from the Visayan Mountains. My teacher favored the Pinute. He always told me that it was chinese that brought steel making to the island and then the Filipinos learn how from them. Many Chinese married into families in the Visayan region. He said that Chinese made trade weapons and swapped for gold along time ago. I have taken a number of my weapons and used them working out. What I have found is this: The type of strike and grace of motion is effected by shape and the weight of the blade. Depending if the FMA system and range you fight affects the sword, sword & dagger you would use. Yes many systems have influence of Indonisian, Spanish & Chinese as they would cross over when fighting and spying on them. I am current working on book on the basics of Filipino Martial Arts, it based upon my research of working with 30 different masters and teachers and keeping notes on common threads. The names of some of the moves may be different due to local dialect but the motion is always the same. |
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#40 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
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I met in Manila once the head of the American Institute of Architects (AIA). He told me that in their field, some architects would keep their cards close to their chest. But this person (a prominent architect in the US) said that he does the opposite. He shares everything to his competitors he said. And his goal is simple -- he wants the other architects to better him, so that in turn he'd be able to come back and beat them. And then another cycle ensues ... and so forth and so on. A virtuous cycle is thus created. And he said that that's how things can be brought to the next level. I am not into FMA or any martial arts (my first love was firearms and explosives). But if I were into FMA, I'd encourage my mentors to adopt that mindset ![]() |
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#41 |
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 264
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^^
I believe in what you are saying, and it would make sense to do so. This keeps the wheels turning for all parties and this is how a system "evolves". Bruce Lee being the best example and greatest innovator of what you speak of. His style was basically stealing techniques and moves from several arts and making them his own. Did I say stealing?...maybe I should of said borrowing. ![]() I know that all sounds like I am rambling. I guess basically what I am trying to say is, everyone has a preference on how and what they want to learn. Me personally, I wanted to learn a traditional FMA...aside from just pure self defense on the street; I wanted to learn for the cultural heritage part. So obviously, a FMA school that changes with the times by adding this and that and does what every other martial art school is doing; that really is not for me. Hope that all made sense. ![]() |
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#42 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 264
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![]() Just a bit of info from the book. In a nut shell... If seeking info on Moro arts, look to Silat. FMA, Arnis, and eskrima in general does NOT follow any form of Moro martial art. Any FMA art not falling under Silat that uses Moro clothing and weapons should be questioned. Eskrima is a tried and true Filipino Christian martial art unique to only the Philippines and evolved from fighting with the Moro raiders. ![]() |
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#43 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
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We also remember that when the Spanish first took Manila there was a Moro Datu or Sultan there at the time .
They might have been more than occasional raiders . |
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#44 | ||
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
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Islam was not as widespread then in northern Philippines (i.e., Luzon), like it was in the southern Phils. then (i.e., Sulu and Mindanao). And central Phils. (i.e., the Visayas) were the least influenced by Islam at that time. Just to clarify the terms describing Phil. precolonial form of government -- Datu - the head of a barangay (pronounced buh-rung-GUY), which population consisted from just a few families, to several hundred persons; a barangay is run fairly independently vs. other barangays; thus a barangay is the basic political unit, and all of the Philippines' peoples then were organized in this manner. Raja - a datu who was designated by his peers as the head of an alliance of several barangays; thus Raja Sulaiman was one of the three rajas who ruled precolonial greater Manila then which consisted of many barangays. Sultan - a sultan is the leader of a much larger geographical area, and there would be rajas and datus under the sultan (like in the sultanates of Sulu and Maguindanao, respectively). Now on the Moro raids of old, they were done by southern Philippine Moros for two things -- (a) as an act of retribution against the incursion of Spaniards against their homeland (Sulu/Mindanao), and (b) as a means of boosting their rising local economy via the procurement of more manpower. There were plenty of good and arable land everywhere. Thus conquest of territory did not make sense. It was the people who were the precious "commodities" -- thus, slave raiding was the sensible political and economic move. As for the 16th century Luzon Moros, they were not engaged in raiding, as there were no Christians then to get irritated at ![]() And perhaps the local population was able to support the Manila economy. On a related matter, historians also say that the reason Luzon and Visayas fell easily to the colonizers was precisely because of the loose alliance amongst the barangays. In the case of Sulu and Mindanao however, their higher level of political cohesiveness (via the sultanate) allowed them to resist the colonizers more effectively. |
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#45 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,287
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Thanks Miguel for explaining the order of the titles .
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#46 |
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I wonder about the silat connection to original Moro systems. I will not deny that there may be some relation, but from what I have seen of silat, it seems to go mostly near the ground. From some old photos of the turn of the centyr and a particular Moro practitioner on Cecil Quirino's Crossing the Sulu Seas, Moro martial arts may not be as low to the ground as silat.
Just my limited observations so far....... |
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#47 |
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Torrance
Posts: 49
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Guys,
FMA was been impacted by the constant raiders & settlers from many places. Raiding became an form of commerce. Blades were traded for and many types of blades were used. Yes there are local adaptaion and creations as well. It was so bad that English and thier trade ships were plaged by Moro Pirates. If you want read a excellent book that also refferes to the weapons complete with sketches read the Pirate Wind. You can get it from Austrialan, Hong Kong and England book sellers. The English did great job of documenting their enemies of trade. If you get the chance read the book you get really great feel about the southern Philippines in the 1700- 1800s. It was amazing place and times. |
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#48 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 88
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#49 |
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Join Date: Jun 2009
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Just wanted to add some input after spending time with Tausug and Yakan tribesmen in the Southern Philippines--culturally there are strong ties to Malaysia in so many ways. I now see the myriad of connections that influence all cultures throughout the Philippines after having spent so much time here this year.
Both the Tausugs and Yakan have terms for their fighting systems, and like many words in Bahasa Sug and Yakan, they are somewhat similar to words in Malay. The term for their fighting systems is something like silat, but I can't remember what it is now. Silat is NOT always low to the ground. If you look at Seni Gayong from Malaysia, or Minangkabau Sitarlak, both systems are relatively upright. There is a strong possibility Chinese fighting systems did influence the Bangsamoro, however. Chinese kung fu systems have affected Javanese systems. The Chinese, to this day, live among the Tausug and Yakan on Basilan and Sulu, and we have all seen barungs with Chinese characters on them. I wish I could get a taste of the Tausug fighting systems, but traveling to Jolo or Patikul at this point in time is a really bad idea unless you have ransom money ready at home. I doubt they would even be willing to teach their systems to the Yakan, even though there is relative peace between the tribes now and members of both tribes work and live together in the Abu Sayyaf/MILF/MNLF and even intermarry. |
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