OTTOMAN....What do we mean? - Page 2

estcrh · 28th November 2015, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Stu.
Well. Now look what you've done. You've opened up a can of worms. And Indo-Persian would probably be a two cans of worms. LOL!!

"Indo-Persian" just takes all of the other umbrella terms such as "Ottoman", "Middle Eastern", "Oriental", Islamic", "Indian", "Persian", "Iranian" etc and puts them into one large umbrella category. I can remember a few years back when you still could barely find images of common arms and armor, let alone rare types, now there is a varitable buffet of images to see (and learn from), just a few search terms finds the majority of them...how nice!!

Indo-Persian weapons.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Indo...w=1918&bih=995

Indo-Persian armor.
https://www.google.com/search?q=indo...w=1918&bih=995

kahnjar1 · 28th November 2015, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I totally agree my Ottoman friend

Kubur

I do not disagree with what is written here as we all have our own views, but the point I have tried to make appears to have been missed, judging by the replies above.
What I have tried to point out is that when a question is asked as to ORIGIN of a piece, what is actually being asked is "Where does this piece COME FROM?" It may be Ottoman, and if it is, what particular country within what was the Ottoman Empire does it come from? I am not looking for a particular town as has been highlighted by some, but the likely COUNTRY of origin.
Some of the above replies show that some Members are quite happy to have only a vague idea of where their particular pieces originate. I prefer (where possible), to narrow things down to a particular country or region.
Each to their own I guess......
Stu

estcrh · 28th November 2015, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

What I have tried to point out is that when a question is asked as to ORIGIN of a piece, what is actually being asked is "Where does this piece COME FROM?" It may be Ottoman, and if it is, what particular country within what was the Ottoman Empire does it come from?............................... Some of the above replies show that some Members are quite happy to have only a vague idea of where their particular pieces originate. I prefer (where possible), to narrow things down to a particular country or region.
Stu

Stu, the problem is the lack of accurate information on were exactly many "Ottoman" armor and weapon items were manufactured. Most, if not all of us would be very happy to be able to pinpoint what country our items came from, but what sources can be used for this that are accurate and trustworthy?

Here is an example, this war hammer is in my opinion "Ottoman". How can I verify that, what reference will tell me with any certainty that this was manufactured in the Ottoman empire and what country in the Ottoman Empire it originated from. Right now I would probably describe it as "Indo-Persian" (possibly Ottoman)

kahnjar1 · 28th November 2015, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Stu, the problem is the lack of accurate information on were exactly many "Ottoman" armor and weapon items were manufactured. Most, if not all of us would be very happy to be able to pinpoint what country our items came from, but what sources can be used for this that are accurate and trustworthy?

Here is an example, this war hammer is in my opinion "Ottoman". How can I verify that, what reference will tell me with any certainty that this was manufactured in the Ottoman empire and what country in the Ottoman Empire it originated from. Right now I would probably describe it as "Indo-Persian" (possibly Ottoman)

Agreed, but with Forum discussion, and looking at the particular features of an item, we MIGHT just arrive at a particular origin point. That would be to the benefit of all....not just Forum Members. If we simply dismiss an item as being Ottoman (or Arabian or Middle Eastern or whatever) we could miss a great opportunity to further our knowledge. Nothing can ever be CERTAIN, but at least hopefully some progress could be made.
Stu

russel · 29th November 2015, 08:47 AM

I couldn't stop help myself...

rickystl · 29th November 2015, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by russel

I couldn't stop help myself...

LOL!!!!!!!

digenis · 1st December 2015, 07:03 PM

Very interesting discussion. I think that it is fair to categorize weapons and accoutrements produced in the Ottoman empire as "Ottoman". I think there is an Ottoman esthetic that resonates on those items manufactured during this period. However, I think that the regional decorative variances is IMHO what makes the study of these weapons so fascinating. I believe that there is space for a scholarly, yet collector-friendly book that can connect the designs and patterns found in weapons with those of other regionally produced folk art and motifs of the same period. Some countries in the Balkans have done an amazing job in cataloging regional variants of folk costumes, embroidery and jewelry design. These alone may serve as a starting point of comparison.

29th November 2015, 08:47 AM	#35
russel Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Tasmania, Australia Posts: 236	I couldn't stop help myself... Attached Images

1st December 2015, 07:03 PM	#37
digenis Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 48	Very interesting discussion. I think that it is fair to categorize weapons and accoutrements produced in the Ottoman empire as "Ottoman". I think there is an Ottoman esthetic that resonates on those items manufactured during this period. However, I think that the regional decorative variances is IMHO what makes the study of these weapons so fascinating. I believe that there is space for a scholarly, yet collector-friendly book that can connect the designs and patterns found in weapons with those of other regionally produced folk art and motifs of the same period. Some countries in the Balkans have done an amazing job in cataloging regional variants of folk costumes, embroidery and jewelry design. These alone may serve as a starting point of comparison.