Appreciation

[rasdan]

G'day Alan,

A bit of a correction. It's not really a quick thought, it had been in my mind for quite sometime, i just recalled it back and put it in some organisation.

Well it seems that my mind is working at the obvious surface level. I gotta change my mindset from an engineer to an architect.

As for me, my interest in keris probably came from old movies. Sensing my interest, my grandfather made me a wooden keris when i was 6 years old. I played with it everyday. In the same year my second uncle (which is younger than me) and i sneaked into his father's room, opened the closet to handle my great grandfather's keris.

Probably it is not really interest in keris, but in weapons actually- because i also liked other daggers/machettes and if i can i would also like to play with my great grandfather's shotgun, but that one is kept by another relative.

I can't forget that day. That's the first time i have the thought - One day I'm gonna get a keris for me!!

[David]

Like Rick i grew up on the ocean (or close enough to get to in a 20 min. car ride) in an area that historically saw a lot of sailing, boat building, fishing etc. I suppose i had very early dreams of going to sea and found fascination at a young age with whalers and their travels to exotic places like the South Seas. Read Moby Dick and Treasure Island at a very young age and devoured historical books on whaling and pirates. So right there i suppose there is the set-up for a love of the South Seas and swords. But this does seem, at least to me, to be a bit of a given for most children, at least in the western world. Sort of like my early interest in dinosaurs. I mean, isn't that every small boy's interest.
I have also always had a very strong interest in anything old, so even as a kid i loved kicking around flea markets and antique stores. They have always been like museums to me, except that if you have the money you can actually buy the stuff and bring it home with you. But even people's old junk is interesting to me, appealing, i suppose, to the sociologist is me.
Now i also have always had a strong interest in science, the stars, space travel and science fiction. Again, not all that strange for small boy growing up in the American culture. I have also been a collector of things since i was very young and have always collected rocks, fossils, shells, coins, stamps, feathers, old bottles, old cameras, etc. Yes, this drives my wife crazy as i still have substantial amounts of all these collections about the house.
As a teenager i began to find interest in eastern philosophies and mysticism. My mom used to read stories of Greek mythology, Native American legends and folktales to me as a child that were all packed with acts of remarkable deeds and magick. This led me onto a spiritual path and a strong interest in the concepts of magick and how different cultures apply themselves to magick and the search for spiritual connection. So this has been a focus of study for me for the past 35 years.
So, one fine day in 1981 i was on vacation in New Hampshire and i was kicking around an antiques flea market. I discovered a Moro kris that just grabbed my attention and imagination. Neither i nor the seller had any clue what it was, but of course i had to have it. I was living in NYC at the time so when i got home i took it into the curator at the Metropolitan Museum of Art to find out what i had bought. He IDed it as Moro and somewhat misleadingly discribed them as pirates and spoke just a bit about the mystical connection the Moros had with these swords. I had to know more, but i didn't have much luck. No too much later a self-styled "shaman" friend of mine was leaving town and wanting to lighten his load. He knew of my interest in my Moro kris and offered to sell me a Javanese keris he had. I could see the connection in the blade form, but didn't really fully understand it at the time. Still, i had a hard time finding any information, not really knowing where to look. Then i just happened to find a Hilton Horizons travel magazine that a street book vendor was selling with 2 javanese keris on the cover. Inside was the article "Beauty, Magic and Powers of the Keris" with numerous full page color photos. It describes a number of legends of the keris and the (again misleading) notion that all keris were made from meteoric pamor. So we now have this incredible convergence of life long interests for me. The South Seas, pirates, magick and mysticism, heroic legends of valor, glory and bravery and, last, but not least, star metal from outer space. And as if to add just one more synchronicity i come to discover that one of the early accepted published works on keris was written by Gardner who i was already well aware of as the father of modern Wicca. Gentlemen, i think this is what is commonly referred to as "The Perfect Storm".
It took a few more years until i discovered the internet before my collection really began to flourish. I must say that i blame this site. The only other reference i had managed to find up until then is the wonderful coffee table book Court Arts of Indonesia, but stumbling upon this place was like a godsend.....well, perhaps not for my pocket book. From 1981 - 2004 i had collected only the 2 blades. Since then i have added well over 50 blades to my collection.

[A. G. Maisey]

I most sincerely thank you all, gentlemen.

The responses that are coming in now are exactly in the order of what I was looking for, and they demonstrate, I believe, the emotional foundations of our shared interest, not only that, but those emotional foundations seem to have a distinct similarity , a similarity that in all cases stretches back to the time when we were children. None of us are now capable of considering any keris in the absence of that stored experience that stretches back through our lives and creates a mindset that automatically comes into play when we bring the keris to mind.

Seems to me that we have "bought the story", and cannot give it back.

I do hope we will continue to get further contributions to this thread.

Dr. David, it seems I have had some dealings with your relatives.

I have visited that musium at Kurnell when I was a kid, and I also made purchases from several antique dealers who had shops in Sutho. I bought a Moro keris from a bloke in the arcade that runs through to Eton St., and I bought a shamshir from a dealer who had his shop down where the old movie show used to be in Boyle St.. In fact, there seemed to be several dealers and an auction room in that Boyle St. location, they changed position from time to time, and might have even been the same person, I don't know.I bought a few other things from the Boyle St. dealers too, I forget what now, but they got regular visits from me.

Sutho has changed a lot now. Used to be a blacksmith in Boyle Lane. Still got and use a spud bar that my dad got him to make from a truck axle in 1948. One of my kids recently bought a yuppy style townhouse in one of the new little dead end streets that sit in behind President Avenue, just up the road from where I went to school in a weatherboard classroom with no heating in winter, and no insulation in summer. President Avenue was a gravel road then.

Time changes all things.

[Rick]

"Time changes all things ."

Is that not one reason we collect ?
An attempt to freeze (in a tangible form) that which is being lost .

[BluErf]

David, there are many points in your experience that resonates strongly with mine. The keris is like the jack that we use to plug into "the Matrix".

For me, years after my initial connection and bonding with the keris, I had a second "epiphany" of sorts. That was when I got in touch with the North Malay Peninsula kerises. It is hard to describe, but it had to do with the beauty of the flow of lines in the keris blades, the sheaths and the hilts, and the indescribable aesthetic presence that top-class pieces exuded. It changed the way I looked at kerises, and a keris was no longer just a seemingly pretty and interesting thing that I collect. It had to have that 'balanced flow of the lines' perfectly melded with the natural beauty of the organic parts and the man-made beauty of the metal parts. The keris became something that captured the intangible inspired vision of the makers. Something wondrous taken out of the unseen realm and given shape using temporal materials... It was a whole new experience for me, and I guess it is true that I'm looking for my "next fix" in my collecting journey, and I haven't been quite getting a sufficiently high dosage... ...and it sometimes drives me mad thinking about it...

[A. G. Maisey]

No Rick, I don't think so.

It may be one of the reasons public collections are put together, but I am increasingly certain that the reason we --- that is, you, I and other private collectors collect is based purely in emotion.

The idea of conserving something may come as a later, logical addition to our primary emotional drive, but without emotion at the wheel, there would be no collection to conserve.

[Jussi M.]

Greetings,

What can be said that has not been put forth already? I´ll add a spin:

Buying is a ritual.

Acquiring new pieces to ones collection is a task of advancing the "whole" of which the act of acquisition - the ritual - is a tangible part of. The "whole" in question is the egotistical/spiritual pursuit of becoming one with something/separating oneself from the current. - Escapism or pursuit if you will.

The collection per se is thus a vehicle one uses to get to ones desired destination which, of course, is an oxymoron as the more experienced/jaded the collector becomes the further the destination appears as there really is no destination to be reached by the act of collecting. This so unless we see the process of collecting per se as the destination by which time you realize this your original motives have given way to a new set of motives, which in turn feed the phenomena from another perspective until yet another layer of motives surface. This is what we see as maturation though it really is just a new beginning; a newly found amateurism and the joy that comes with it. Or, the acceptance of a failure which gives way for a new attempt from a different angle. Thus the process of collecting is, in itself, the desired destination in motion.


The logic behind?

You are what you buy - you want to become one with what has previously described in this thread as the story? - you become one by performing the ritual(s)!

Or rather, in you subconsciousness you rationalize it to be so. There was a time (speaking from a typical Western mindset now) that we were what we did. As the modernization brought fragmentation and multiple virtual and real realities that shattered the route of becoming by doing a new route was established: becoming by consuming. On a consumer culture we manifest and actualize ourselves (again speaking from the typical Western mindset and surroundings) by consuming. Thus the acquisition of kerises (buying) on a way really does, on a perverted way of sorts continue the original tasks the keris originally stood for. On a way perhaps the roles of the keris have not changed but the surroundings and the ways in which we fullfil and describe these roles in these surroundings have.

What we are discussing here is, after all, (consumer) behaviour.

If it is so that consumerism and marketing have taken the role (again speaking from the typical Western viewpoint) of religion and spiritualism then the act of collecting is a religious/spiritual ritual. Yes?

Can it be so that the original keris culture has not ceased to exist but that it has - partly - found new ways to express itself on the 21st century via and by the collecting community that centers on it?

So, yes. I agree that the story is it. What I am interested though is what gave initiation for the story and motivates it if not escapism or pursuit as put forth above?

Thanks,

J.

[A. G. Maisey]

Jussi, I feel that what you have given us is what I would categorise as "modern marketing theory" :-

the same psychological game that (supposedly) gets us to buy that cherry red , drop top sports car with 400 horses under the bonnet

we have seen the nightly ads on TV, with Little Miss Lovely draped over it in almost nothing except a diamond choker and impossibly high heels

we have seen the ads in "Financial Review" of it parked outside the most exclusive club in town

we've got a spare 3 million in our hip pocket

what better way to get rid of it than by buying a few dreams?

But can we scratch a wee bit deeper than this?

Come back to my original post to this thread.

Why did Josh Bell take $32 in the subway on one day, and $25,000 the following day when he climbed onto a stage?

What is the difference between a painting that is attributed to Vermeer, and one that is not?

Maybe what you have written is touching on what I'm trying to get at, but I feel it is touching on it as an overlay, not as a part of the foundation.

What is going on in our minds?

Perhaps you may care to think a little more on this question?

[Emanuel]

I started collecting due to a life-long interest in swords. I had no direct connection to them, but when I was six or seven I coveted an uncle's army/hunting knife.
My first swords were the stainless steel repro variety from the local shopping mall. I got my first real sword or dagger when I discovered ebay in 2005, joined this forum and got a keris from Henk, followed by a takouba, a khukri and so on. None of them had any specific story, or provenance or attribution, but I got an interesting feeling when holding them. I had an interesting dream about a keris the night before I received the one from Henk. I had no such feeling from a 10lb "ginuwine Toledo sword" that my sister brought me from a trip to Spain.

Since then I've been adding to the collection whenever I can. I've been snatching up flissa whenever possible even though I wonder "do I really need another?". I think humans are hoarders by nature. We find something we like and we try to accumulate as much of it as possible. Why else collect dozens of the same identical object? We feel good having many versions of the same thing. I find it odd that we don't get tired of them. Don't they get boring and mundane when we have dozens or hundreds of them? Pictures of Spiral's khukri walls and some of the keris collections come to mind.
I do discriminate, however. I only like khukri with the pre-WWI lines and hardly care for the British patterns. I love the British 1796 LC and HC sabres because of their proportions and fine lines, not because collectors say they are desirable. I fell in love with a picture of a flissa before I read about it. I generally go for pieces that look like they've been used once in their lives.

My collection room feels almost like an old church when I step in it and not for any spiritual/religious reason. I get the same feeling of old use and faint traces of what came before. I handle the pieces, examine them and think briefly about their lives before putting them back on the wall. I think that despite the modern ideal of consumerism we crave anchors to the past. We need something that has endured the test of time, perhaps especially when we undergo lots of change. I've moved around a fair bit in my life before settling here in Toronto. Perhaps elder collectors here have seen the quick pace of societal and technological change over the past century and look for something constant and unchanging? Keris may be newly produced, but the keris system is old and not too prone to change.

Would we feel different if tomorrow we found out that all the books on arms and all the fellow collectors here were a huge hoax? That our flissas, tulwars, khukris and keris were made within the past 80 years in a prop factory for 1920s Hollywood?

[Emanuel]

Another thought...

Perhaps we do indeed fetishize our collections' significance in their lives and through them live what we cannot directly achieve. They had a clear purpose and they were very important to their makers, owners, their societies. They did what we cannot, went where we cannot. We harken to that feeling of usefulness and purpose when that seems to be lacking these days. The tool had a strict purpose and its user had an equally well-defined purpose. Use the tool for the specific objective. These days it seems like much of our lives lacks purpose. Go to school, get higher education, get a "respectable" job, get an office, get a house, get a car, get a tv, watch tv garbage, conform to standards, perpetuate the cycle with offspring. Once in a while achieve something relevant to the multitudes at large and be widely remembered.

In counter-point, loads of people care not a damn about old things. They crave change and piles of rusty swords are garbage. I think these people are crazy and dangerous...

Of course there is also obsessive compulsion. Collect paper clips...paper clips are safe...touch object that came into contact with other objects of idolatry and fetishism...

I prefer the thought of collectors as wardens, keepers and caretakers of the world's material culture for collective memory.

[Jussi M.]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jussi, I feel that what you have given us is what I would categorise as "modern marketing theory" (...)

But can we scratch a wee bit deeper than this?

Maybe what you have written is touching on what I'm trying to get at, but I feel it is touching on it as an overlay, not as a part of the foundation. (...)

Perhaps you may care to think a little more on this question?

Greetings Mr. Maisey,

I was not implying to marketing or advertising per se but what lies beneath it. - Yes, advertising tries to exploit the phenomena we are talking about by riding on top of it hoping to catch the wave (and building them from scratch) so to speak but the phenomena we are addressing is born within - not something that can be put forth from outside unless there is a craving already.

We humans want to go further and achieve our goals of which the highest is happiness (self-actualization). We become happy by advancing towards our goals. What ever might be associated with happiness thus becomes a vehicle that could take us towards it. Buying and money per se have absolutely nothing to do with it except that they have become the norm to get them vehicles which one uses to close with what one identifies as the bringer of oneness I. happiness. This is why a fake Vermeer is not OK. If it were one would willingly accept redemption.

Would one willingly choose a fake God on his side?

No. This is why we accept to sacrifice (pay) a lot for the original but become angered if deceived. - Whilst both the original and fake might appear similar in appearance it is only the original which has the power to bring us closer to oneness / happiness.

In my opinion the story per se is therefore not it.

It is the values embedded within and evoked by the story that are it. The story is merely a vehicle to get to the source which paradoxically or not lies within our very own value system and the preconception formed by it. We humans are, by nature, social predators. Thus there is "always" a social element in everything we do whether the act itself be of a social nature or not. An act done in seclusion of, say in ones own study room, has therefore a "social element" in it as it as it is the lack of the social elements that make´s the act (ritual) special for the performer of it. Thus, say for example a collector of kerises may feel genuine oneness I. happiness when he is performing his monthly ritual of oiling his ORIGINAL kerises.

The act (here oiling) thus becomes a physical manifestation - a ritual if you will - of the pursuit of self-actualization I. happiness by coming closer with - choose - and what one deems as "it". It has been said that a "man is the image of God". By closing and advancing what one feels is "true", "original" and "right" one becomes closer to oneness I. being happy by performing them "divine" acts.

What these acts are or what vehicles are used is mere surface level noise. What is important is what values we attach to these acts and vehicles, why and how this happens, how do we "label" new things of either belonging or not belonging (separating) to the same camp with what we deem "worthy" and "good", how do we come up with what is "good" etc?

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Why did Josh Bell take $32 in the subway on one day, and $25,000 the following day when he climbed onto a stage?

Because both audiences recognized the authenticity and divinity of the performance. The zeros in the physical manifestation of these acknowledgments is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

What is going on in our minds?

That indeed is a good question.

[A. G. Maisey]

Jussi, I respect the effort and thought has gone into your posts, however, I feel that you might be moving perhaps level or two in advance of the purely personal appreciation of an object, and that is what we are directing our attention to.

What is happening when we encounter, rather than when we acquire, or feel a need to acquire.

The propaganda/marketing/ societally influenced logic can certainly work for the individual who has been exposed to it, but how do we understand the influence of the object itself in the absence of these influences?

[rasjid]

I started collecting "things" after married and with kids!
From precious stones and knives, all of them I always wanted to know the details on how to identify the material I collected.
With knives, I'm interested to know the material used and what's the difference / advantages with other materials - so I collect a few different type of sword with different type of material -and also tried to make knife as well.

Now, with the keris - the same cycle as well, I do not start with buying all old / antique keris on the market because I personally believe 90% (normally I would say 99% ) the keris on the market are recent make. (this is purely personal opinion). The old keris I'm referring to is before 1800. Even early in 1900, I believe people already make "created" old keris as well. How many people in the old days have keris made for them with kinatah on it? I believe in the old days, the keris (as a pusaka) only made by order and shown to close relative only. Other keris (as a tourist keris - nowadays) also plenty during that era.

I like keris from art and the time spent to make one. I personally like to know more about the material first, asked the maker how he made and what material they used, choose the warangka/pendok material or design, etc. Try to introduce some new material and see the difference. All this experience, I can not get if I bought old keris.

I collect keris if I have the "feel" that I like it, the model, pamor, "feel" when handling the keris, it does not matter if new or old - as long as within my "knowledge" of keris at that time... I even buy a keris (was told old) but I know it recent made... as long as I like it... simple

cheers..

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for these further contributions Emanuel and Rasjid.

I think we are building towards some sort of an understanding of our motivations to collect.

However, I would like to very gently make one point:-

the subject of the thread is "appreciation", and the question I raised was this:-

"I would welcome the thoughts of others on the link between the appreciation of art and objects and the maintenance of sanity in a world that is rapidly decreasing in size at the same time that it is equally rapidly increasing in ordinariness."

We are drifting ever closer to an answer to a different question, which involves the motivations or reasons for collecting.

Perhaps we collect because we have an appreciation of something, but I wonder what is the link between that appreciation and our individual feelings?

If we consider this question, then a further question arises which concerns the the origin of the appreciation.

Possibly the appreciation of the object could generate a desire to acquire a number of those objects, thus we become collectors.

So, the function of "collecting" is several steps further along the path than the point at which it began.

We do not need to collect anything, to have an appreciation of that thing, but the feeling of appreciation still has its effect upon us.

This is the matter I would like to address.

I see it as having two parts:-

1) --- origin of appreciation

2) --- effect of appreciation upon us as individuals.

I'm taking a leave of absence at this point, in order to attend to some personal matters. I will be very interested to see any further thoughts on this matter.

[Montino Bourbon]

when I was about 16, going to school in Switzerland, roughly in 1958, I saw a movie that changed my life. It was “the seven samurai”, and although I had had, as a child, a childish fascination with swords, I immediately “got into” Japanese swords.

Years later, as a senior in high school in Manhattan, I was in an archery loft on 86th St. and I happened to look across the street. There, above Lowe's 80 6th St., Theatre, I saw people practicing kendo, which for those of you who don't know (I'm sure all of you know, but I mention it anyway) is a Japanese martial art based on the Japanese sword.

From there, it was collecting Japanese swords, and a lot of time passed. The swords that I handled, and practiced Iai-do with, always had an energy about them that I liked.

About 20 years ago I started finding out about keris, and especially all the “magical” aspects of them. Since I already had a pretty good grounding in metallurgy, I could really appreciate the artistic energy that went into making them, and the occult energy that they held.

One day, I went by a pawn shop, and when I went in I noticed some keris on the wall. I asked to see them, and one of them really jumped out at me. I have shown that keris here on this forum, and it is one with a handle in the shape of Petruk, one of the sons of Semar. the keris is quite fine, beautiful painting on the wrangka, but what especially impressed me was the energy.

I obsessed on that keris, especially after I had a very intense dream in which I and that keris had a very interesting exchange of energy.

I offered the shopkeeper a price, which he did not accept. I raised it until finally he sold it to me.

I'm a musician, and a few different times I have worn that keris on stage. Alan has seen photographs of it, and has commented that it's possible that it may have belonged to a performer, perhaps a Dalang.

I also have to tell you that sometimes, like right now, certain pieces in my collection ask me to oil them. I feel that if I don't get up right away and put oil on them, they won't have the kind of energy that they should have. Or maybe they'll feel neglected, and pout when I next go to see them.

Since then, I have collected a few keris. I don't have a large collection, and I have other nice things in it including some moghul pieces and some nice wootz daggers. I also have very “down home” pieces, such as primitive farm implements and “using” knives. I always like to feel the energy in a piece, and I won't buy it unless I get a really “good hit” from it. Lately I bought a little kukri that probably belonged to some farmer. I paid less than $20 for it, and when I got it it was obvious that it was made by a smith for real use. I'll probably publish photographs of it sometime soon, and although it's nothing fancy I really like it for its no-nonsense energy.

So yes, I did buy the story. Without the story, there is really no collecting. My teacher, Ali Akbar Khan, was the greatest musician of the last century in India, and pretty much everything that he taught had a story. I like stories. I'm a pretty good storyteller myself.

Alan, I want to thank you for starting this thread. I find it interesting and fascinating to hear everybody's take on the subject, and I hope that I answered your question without wandering too far from the subject.

[VANDOO]

I CAN'T BREAK ANY NEW GROUND HERE BUT WILL TRY AND EXPLAIN MY PERSONEL ATTRACTION AND INTREST AND MY REASONS FOR IT. THE PERSONALITY I WAS BORN WITH HAS ALWAYS BEEN ONE INTERESTED IN MOST EVERYTHING AND I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN VERY OBSERVANT. I STARTED WITH BUGS AND HAD A COLLECTION OF SORTS WHEN I WAS TWO YEARS OLD.
MY INTREST IS DRAWN BY CURIOSITY OF ANYTHING NEW, DIFFERENT OR UNUSUAL. ANY NEW THING IS NEVER ORDINARY UNTIL YOU ARE AROUND MANY FOR A LONG TIME AND SOME THINGS SUCH AS THE KERIS NEVER BECOME ORDINARY. MY INTRESTS ARE MANY AND I AM LIKE A BUTTERFLY GOING QUICKLY FROM ONE FLOWER TO THE NEXT. MY INTRESTS IN SUCH THINGS AS KERIS REMAIN BUT TIME AND OTHER THINGS TAKE ME AWAY UNTIL I RETURN AGAIN.
THERE IS A MUCH GREATER LIKELYHOOD OF CHILDREN RAISED IN A KERIS CULTURE BECOMING INTERESTED IN THEM. BUT I THINK THE NORM IN THAT CULTURE IS TO FOLLOW THE TRADITIONAL USES AND CEREMONIES RELATED TO THE KERIS. TO COLLECT LOTS OF KERIS BECAUSE YOU LIKE THEM WOULD PROBABLY BE UNUSUAL IN THEIR SOCIETY AND OF COURSE ONLY THE WEALTHY COULD AFFORD TO COLLECT MANY.
I READ SOME ADVENTURE BOOKS WHERE THE KERIS WAS MENTIONED WHEN I WAS A YOUNG BOY AND SAW MY FIRST KERIS IN THE 1960'S. IT WAS SOMETHING NEW AND EXOTIC AND THE PRICE WAS FIVE DOLLARS SO I BOUGHT IT. IT WAS NOT A GREAT SPECIMIN BUT THE PATTERNS IN THE BLADE AND THE BELIEF THAT ALL KERIS BLADES WERE MADE FROM METEOR IRON MADE IT VERY INTERESTING AND ATTRACTIVE TO ME.
THIS MADE ME LOOK FOR INFORMATION AND I FOUND A LIMITED AMOUNT AT THE LIBRARY BUT LEARNED MORE FROM AN OLD COLLECTOR AND DEALER WHO HAD ACTUALLY TRAVELED THE WORLD AND FOUGHT IN THE WAR. HE HAD A LOT OF KNOWLEGE AND TOLD GREAT STORIES EVEN THOUGH WHAT HE HAD FOR SALE WAS WAY OUT OF MY PRICE RANGE AT THE TIME. I ALWAYS LOOKED FORWARD TO VISITING WITH HIM TWICE A YEAR AT THE LOCAL GUN SHOW.
I PREFER A WEAPON THAT HAS BEEN OWNED AND USED BY A PERSON IN THE CULTURE FROM WHICH IT COMES. THESE KERIS HAVE A HISTORY AND STORY THAT GOES WITH THEM EVEN THOUGH WE MAY NOT KNOW IT. I LOOK AT THE WEAR AND PATINA AND PONDER THE STORY AND HISTORY, I ALSO APPRECIATE THE WORKMANSHIP AND THE PATTERNS AND BEAUTY IN THE BLADE AND THE WOOD. I CAN STAND AND LOOK AT THE PATTERNS IN A GOOD VAN GOUGH PAINTING AND CAN DO THE SAME WITH A COMPLICATED SWIRLING PATTERN IN A KERIS BLADE.
PERHAPS WE ALL HAVE A NEED TO STUDY AND LEARN WHICH LEADS US TO OUR VARIED INTRESTS. WHILE SOME MAY ONLY COLLECT THE KNOWLEGE OTHERS OF US NEED THE ACTUAL OBJECTS TO STRENGTHEN AND ENRICH THE LEARNING PROCESS. SOME OF US GET ENJOYMENT SHAREING WHAT WE HAVE LEARNED AND OTHERS GAURD THEIR KNOWLEGE JELOUSLY. EACH TO HIS OWN
SOMETHING NEW AND UNUSUAL WILL ATTRACT MORE INTEREST THAN SOMETHING COMMON AND ORDINARY.

WAYS AND REASONS TO COLLECT.
1. A GREAT EMPU HAS PASSED AWAY AND THEREFORE NO MORE KERIS OR FITTINGS WILL BE MADE BY HIM. THIS WILL MAKE IT ATTRACTIVE AS AN INVESTMENT FOR SOME AND OTHERS WILL WISH TO HAVE ONE FOR SENIMENTAL REASONS OR PERHAPS SPIRITUAL REASONS AS THE KERIS WOULD HAVE THE SPECIAL POWERS THAT EMPU WAS KNOWN TO PUT INTO HIS WORK.
2. THE MYSTIQUE OR POWER ASSOCIATED WITH THE MAKER OR THE FAMOUS OWNERS OR FAMILY OR PERHAPS OF SOME GREAT BATTLE OR DEED. A KERIS CAN NOT GAIN FAME WITHOUT THE GREAT DEEDS OF THE OWNER.
3. SOME MAY START COLLECTING BECAUSE THEY SEE SOMEONES COLLECTION. IT MAY BE BECAUSE THEY WISH TO COMPETE WITH THEM AND OUT DO THEM OR JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE FACINATED BY THE KERIS AND THE STORIES.

I DON'T COLLECT BECAUSE OF FADS AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN INDEPENDENT AND WENT MY OWN WAY WEATHER IT WAS POPULAR OR NOT. THIS HAS SERVED ME WELL AGAINST SALES AND PROMOTION AS I BUY WHAT I LIKE NOT WHAT THEY SAY I SHOULD BUY. AND I WILL JUST AS QUICKLY BUY A NEW KERIS IF THE QUALITY AND PRICE ARE GOOD AS I WILL BUY AN OLD ONE.

[Laowang]

While we may be urged to appreciate works of art objectively, I'm not sure in truth anything is really appreciated objectively. Anything meant to be appreciated for its aesthetic content is received subjectively; we've been socialized since birth in the ways in which we respond to things. A painting by Vermeer or Picasso or Cai Guo-Qiang is beautiful or moving because we have been socialized to perceive it that way, and respond to it in that manner, although of course as humans we do not all react in the same manner.

Hence, the story is important. It may be the story the creator of the object intended, or didn't intend, or a completely separate story we bring to the object. Perhaps it doesn't matter. Once an object enters the world it becomes the property of the world, and open to multiple readings.

Traditionally collectors have collected and appreciated objects for all sorts of reasons. Traditional Chinese literati collected paintings, poems, and rubbings of ancient stele not only for perceived intrinsic beauty, but also because it was something one did as literati, just as you also painted and wrote poetry. It was also a form of recreation, in which you and your friends would get together, have a drink, and appreciate some items from your collection. (In that regard, this forum serves a similar purpose, but without the alcoholic beverages)

Victorian English collected for a number of reasons; the expanding English empire gave them access to many more things. Partly collecting was a demonstration of their reach and power across the globe, but they also had great curiosity for things (orchids, rhododendrons), a burgeoning interest in science (insects, birds, fossils, minerals), and many other motivations that don't come currently to mind.

As an occasional collector of keris who grew up in relatively mainstream American culture, there were a great many things to prompt an interest, some of which has been mentioned by others. Novels and stories, from Conrad to Robert Louis Stevenson to Tolkein; interest in knights, pirates, South Seas adventures; modern incarnations such as Dungeons & Dragons, etc.

I first came across keris several years ago, during a trip to Singapore with my wife to visit in-laws. My brother-in-law had a beautiful old keris tajong he was holding for a Malay friend, who was living abroad for work. At the instruction of the friend, he kept it in a cabinet near the entrance to his flat, with the hilt facing the door; according to his friend, this would help protect him and his family. This certainly caught my attention; not so much that I viewed the keris in any way as magical, but that someone had crafted it at some point in time with that belief, and others continued to possess it with the same belief. In the world we currently live in, where the vast majority of objects that surround us are produced somewhat indifferently in factories, and are identical from piece to piece, the keris is remarkable for this contrast.

Perhaps most importantly, for me, the keris is meant to be held. In this regard it is unlike so many other things that one could collect. The hulu is designed for one's hand, and the weight and form of the blade to be properly handled by that hand. The heft of a keris in one's hand provides a kind of tactile pleasure unequaled by any other collectible object I can think of. And the range of weights and fits of keris, from light and (relatively) delicate cotengs and keris selit, to large Bugis and Balinese blades, only makes that distinction from other objects even greater.

[BluErf]

Would appreciation not have its root in how we value things? We appreciate an object because we assign a high value to it. We would never appreciate anything that we feel is useless, cheap or not beautiful - in effect anything that is of no worth to us.

If we appreciate something, perhaps we would do more to affirm that value we see in the object. That could include collecting, protecting, singing praises, consuming, ensure the continued transmission of that object, etc etc.

Then going back to question of why do we value things - how about evolutionary effects? If something we appreciate is good for us and helps us survive, then, wouldn't a well-honed sense of understanding what is good for us help us survive better? With much of the human race no longer concerned with finding food on a day-to-day basis, and with the new 'unnatural' pressures arising from our social circumstance, perhaps that sense of appreciation has moved from basic necessities to more unusual things like art and kerises. Things that help us handle modern life better.

Perhaps the world is becoming so literal and visual, and the mysterious world is no longer that mysterious, we appreciate objects that help us feel that sense of mystery and wonder; something that allows us to hold on to the hope that the world is more than it seems; there are more possibilities; I can break out of this tired and shrinking world!!! This is something that helps us bear with our present world.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by BluErf

Perhaps the world is becoming so literal and visual, and the mysterious world is no longer that mysterious, we appreciate objects that help us feel that sense of mystery and wonder; something that allows us to hold on to the hope that the world is more than it seems; there are more possibilities; I can break out of this tired and shrinking world!!! This is something that helps us bear with our present world.

This . ^^^^
Hammer; meet nail .

[sirek]

I can go along with the idea:
“Collecting is an instinctual behaviour and is genetically fixed.”

You can enumerate several reasons why someone collected:

-it gives respect and appreciation
-pleasure, sensory pleasure and aesthetic pleasure
-the excitement of the search for specific things and the hunt for more
-a combination of passion and pleasure
-greed, some collectors simply want more and more
-trade or investment funds, just for financial gain
-distinguish you, profiling, collecting art shows good taste
-attention and respect, image building prestige, ambition,

Add something to your collection works as a kind of antidepressant:
your body will reward you with a brief shot happiness.

Collection is also rewarded by a social component:
that of community life. (As in this forum).
A collector with a nice keris can make no impression on his neighbour, but he can during a keris-meeting. (Or the neighbour must also be a keris collector )

But the question still remains: Why collect a keris ? And not an other form of artwork?
Why I bought as a child at a flea market among a thousand other things a keris? Or perhaps was it because the seller had a good story? And I also bought a story with emotion?

I have unfortunately no answer. I live in Europe and have no keris culture but I'm still interested in the keris, appreciate the craftsmanship, respect the culture. Therefore I believe that it is a form of instinct.

[Rick]

I think many of us may accumulate other works of art or something else beside only the keris .

In the past I, like David, was a bottle digger .
That was almost more of a sport than a hobby .

Original marine art is another of my interests; ties in nicely with the whole draw of the keris for me as does my interest in Asian art .
When I enjoy these I can plug in to that peaceful place .

You could almost call it a form of self-medication .

[A. G. Maisey]

Well, it seems as if during the past week, nobody has had any further thoughts on the matter under discussion here.

Perhaps we have exhausted the subject.

I've read through all of the posts more than a few times, and the message that I am getting seems to come down to this:-

1) --- our appreciation of anything can never take place except against the background of previous experience

2) --- this previous experience creates a matrix that we use either consciously or sub-consciously to evaluate the subject of our appreciation

3) --- the way in which the item that we evaluate is appreciated has an effect upon our emotional state

4) --- the effect upon our emotional state is beneficial to our overall well-being.

If this is so, then it is certain that we can never evaluate, nor consider an object in a purely subjective fashion. We are, if you will, unavoidably locked into evaluation of the object against everything that has previously entered our experience. We may try to be subjective, but our subjectivity is inevitably expressed in an objective fashion.

In other words, we're all hooked on "the story".

As I think is clear from the postings to this thread, that "story" is a little bit different for each of us.

But what is the purpose of this arguably self delusionary process?

Maybe Rick has summed it up very precisely as "self medication".

Does anybody have any further thoughts on this matter?

[BluErf]

G'day Alan,

It's good to have you back.

A few thoughts came to my mind.

Humans use heuristics to help them make decisions in reasonably short time without having to analyze everything from scratch; otherwise, life would be non-functionable. Joshua Bell getting $32 in the streets could be because people may have associated street baskers with mediocre skills and hence not even pay attention to his playing. Or simply because people on the streets are going somewhere and don't have time to stop and listen. In contrast, going to a concert hall and paying big bucks to hear a musician play probably suggests that the musician is fantastic. Of course, in a concert hall situation, we are talking about selling to a crowd that is already sold on the product, and they are there specifically to hear the musician play. As to why people are willing to pay so much to listen to Joshua Bell, I don't think it's purely the story, but because he has achieved a very high level of skills that the vast majority of people cannot achieve. That high level of skill has allowed him to provide some form of pleasure (which can be acquired) to the rest of the others. Pleasure, evolutionarily speaking, comes as a positive feedback to something that is 'good' for our existence, whether it is material or not.

Princess Diana and George Clooney's clothes could have been highly valued because of their immense popularity. People like them for a variety of reasons like them having good-looks, great personalities, rich, etc. These are traits that everyone is desirous of because they are advantageous to living a better life. The affinity arising from our liking of these traits could have resulted in us wanting to be with them or like them, and the closest thing we could get is something closely associated with them - their clothes. At the bottom of all this, again I reckon, lies that sense of what is 'good' for us.

I'm also thinking about the phenomenon of why some island cultures appreciate fat women, while others appreciate waif-like models. I thought the former could be associated with survival logic (fatter = able to survive leaner periods, provide more resources to babies), while the latter could be because thinness in rich society is associated with glamour, wealth, the aesthetics of good looks, etc, which again, I would tie back to the evolutionary sense of what is 'good' for us in order to survive. Between the fat, the thin and the musician, the common thread could be that if I am ahead of the curve, I could probably do better in life than the rest of the laggards.

I think human beings have been a a bit of an evolutionary quirk in that we have come so far in so short a time. Our inbuilt evolutionary responses may have been warped by the "unnatural environment" that we have built, resulting in all these seemingly senseless responses, including to art and the Keris.

[A. G. Maisey]

G'day Kai Wee.

Well mate, you've just given a very easily understood proof that we do indeed always buy the story.

You've said that you don't think its purely "the story", but most especially in the Josh Bell comment you have demonstrated admirably that it is.

When I'm talking about the "the story", I'm thinking of it in the broadest possible terms, and most often that story has been composed by ourselves, and the material that has been drawn upon for its composition is all of our previous experience.

Diamonds.

Wonderful as a store of wealth, inseparable from the idea of romantic love, indestructible, uncorrupted by time, the ultimate prestige signal.

Was it always so?

Nope.

The relative value and popularity of diamonds has increased along with increased supply. The reverse of what we might expect.

It is really only since the late 19th century that diamonds have moved into the prestigious position they now occupy, and this has been due almost solely to the magnificent management of the diamond trade by De Beers.

De Beers have managed to invent and manage the entire diamond mystique and its associated values.

In fact, they have sold a story to the world.

So, if we consider a diamond, any diamond, we cannot but consider it against our lifetime exposure to the position of the diamond in our modern culture.

We simply cannot escape our past, and it is our past that creates for us the measure against which we appreciate anything.

When we get down to the level where we are actually engaged in the appreciation of something, what we know about that something undoubtedly influences our feelings of appreciation. As Laowang has said:-


"Anything meant to be appreciated for its aesthetic content is received subjectively; we've been socialized since birth in the ways in which we respond to things."


We see an unknown painting in Salvation Army Store. Its unsigned. A childlike representation of badly proportioned sunflowers. Is it maybe OK for the guestroom? No, I don't think so. A bit on the crude side.

Headline in the following week's Sydney Morning Herald:-

"Lost Van Gogh Discovered in Suburban Salvation Army Store"

Well --- you win some, you lose some.

Maybe if we'd been exposed to the right story at some time in our past, we would have recognized it as Van Gogh too.

That story, or if you wish, experience, and the knowledge or opinion that it generates influences everything in our lives that follows.

[Jussi M.]

Greetings,

I´ll be adding something at a later time

Jussi

[BluErf]

G'day Alan,

I agree that aesthetics is received subjectively, but if we go far back enough, I always believe that there is a reason behind why that aesthetics is appreciated more than others. A bad violin player will never be able to sell his 'story' for a sustained period of time. A deeply flawed diamond cannot be sold as top of class. Just like a cheap Madurese Muda keris can never pass off to be a top class keris.

In as much as we choose to appreciate something subjectively, it cannot be just the story. It must be accompanied by a quality that makes it relatively hard to acquire/achieve.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

We see an unknown painting in Salvation Army Store. Its unsigned. A childlike representation of badly proportioned sunflowers. Is it maybe OK for the guestroom? No, I don't think so. A bit on the crude side.

Headline in the following week's Sydney Morning Herald:-

"Lost Van Gogh Discovered in Suburban Salvation Army Store"

Well --- you win some, you lose some.

Maybe if we'd been exposed to the right story at some time in our past, we would have recognized it as Van Gogh too.

That story, or if you wish, experience, and the knowledge or opinion that it generates influences everything in our lives that follows.

I do think that we can take this theory too far. Van Gogh is Van Gogh for many reasons. I do not enjoy a Van Gogh painting simply because the established art world has determined he was one of the greatest painters that ever lived. If this were the case i would also enjoy Pollock and Albers and a great number of other artists that the establishment deems worthy and collectable artists. In fact i find those artists not at all to my liking and i don't know what the hype about them is all about. But if i were to see an unsigned Van Gogh in a junk store i would probably buy it on it's own merits because i like Van Gogh's style and i would therefore probably like the unsigned painting. I would buy it because i like it, not because i know it is a Van Gogh. I will admit though that if i were to then find out it was indeed Van Gogh i would consider it of greater value to me. But it probably would change were i decided to hang it.
In the case of Joshua Bell, personally i do not associate buskers necessarily with mediocre talent. But there is a great difference between taking your act to the streets and having an audience come to a specific venue. The people on the street didn't ask for the performance, they may not have the time for it, they may not like the particular genre of music, they may not be particularly well off financially, etc. Those who chose to go to the theatre event, on the other hand, know what they want and what they expect. The acoustics will be perfect, there will be orchestra accompaniment, the seats will be comfortable, the social environment will be high, etc.
If i were a fan and caught the performance on the street i would be just as appreciative, maybe more so because i don't necessarily have the money for the expensive theatre tickets.
This isn't to say that my tastes aren't purely subjective, because they are. I just don't think that for me personally that they are driven by the same standards of establishment acceptance as they are for some.
An excellent film that addresses some of these issues might be Orson Welles last film "F is for Fake". It deals a lot with the ideas of forgeries and fakes and how differently people relate to an object when the forgery is discovered. Famous art forger Elmyr de Hory is featured in the film, a man who forged his way into many of the world's greatest art galleries. Frankly i would love to own a de Hory (or any forgers work) if it were a beautiful and well painted image, though i would also like to know that it isn't "the real thing" as well. I appreciate art not based upon the name attached to it, but whether or not it appeals to my subjective eye.

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

That story, or if you wish, experience, and the knowledge or opinion that it generates influences everything in our lives that follows.

I just read this sentence a second time, and I'm wondering if "the story" is equivalent to experience and knowledge, then everything in this world revolves around 'a story'. If that is the definition, then it would seem that by definition, the question in discussion can have no other answer.

[Rick]

Alan wrote:
"When I'm talking about the "the story", I'm thinking of it in the broadest possible terms, and most often that story has been composed by ourselves, and the material that has been drawn upon for its composition is all of our previous experience."

Originally Posted by BluErf

I just read this sentence a second time, and I'm wondering if "the story" is equivalent to experience and knowledge, then everything in this world revolves around 'a story'. If that is the definition, then it would seem that by definition, the question in discussion can have no other answer.

I think The Story is universal and is being quickly forgotten in our brave new techno - world ; the council fire and spear have disappeared .

So, maybe I'm going too far afield in posting this link; I couldn't get all the way through the book back in '69 as it is a challenging read .

http://edj.net/mc2012/mill1.htm

[David]

Well, i don't know if i am going too far afield either, but i have discovered that you can watch "F is for Fake" on youtube in 10 minute at a time segments and suggest that it may well inform this conversation on the appreciation of art.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9zZNFzrvAA