Pics: Snake-like Curves

[ganjawulung]

Disturb you, again and again... With pictures. This supposed (yes, just suppossed) to be Segaluh style, if not the tangguh Segaluh... Please forgive me for disturbing you, again and again...

Ganjawulung

[A. G. Maisey]

Tangguh giving men something to talk about?

Actually, I heard it first, maybe 25 or 30 years ago in Malang.At the same time I heard a lot more jokes specifically directed at Solo and Jogja people---jokes that do not bear repeating.

Then I heard it again in a different form from a good friend, who happens to be a woman, in Solo.

[Mans]

Pak Ganjawulung
Thank you for your expertise. “Nangguh” keris or to estimate where and when the keris had made is a one aspect on keris culture placed on the top rank on the keris knowledge. And I’m sure that you knew about that. Indeed that the Tangguh of keris can be analysis from many aspects. And I thought the men who has good experiences about the keris culture know well about this. Especialy men who live and interaction in the culture where the keris had made and used. To analys the keris we cannot leave the cultures, because the keris not just a thing or object. The keris is a cultural pieces too.

And was right that some aspect to analysis the tangguh can be seen on the blade style. Like luk style, panetes, greneng, gonjo, kembang kacang, wadidhang, tikel alis, trep-trepan pamor (pamor and iron blended), etc... Tantingan and tingtingan usually can be used if we're not too sure about the era (period), like the keris which made on Segaluh (Tangguh Segaluh) and keris Segaluh which made on Mataram period (Tangguh Segaluh Yasan Mataram). So, the people who has good experiences and intently to learn the keris culture (not just at keris market of course), had seen too many keris style and always well touching with the keris everyday can guessing the keris by seeing the form of the keris and ricikans without handed the keris by them self. So, from the pictures we also can guessing (nangguh) the keris, especially to know by our self. And I think this topic ever discuss on other thread.

As the cultural object and talisman, the keris gave many deep meaning like philosophy, histories and honour of cultural aspect. So, everything on the keris, especially Tangguh, not just trifling. That just my humble opinion, Pak Ganja

And regaring my keris which has luk rengkol, this can be a Daleman Sumenep keris which estimated about 18th century. So, as your expertice, this keris has ricikans as Sumenep Maduranese keris. And it shown to me that not just a Pengging keris which has luk rengkol. Some keris from Mataram Sultan Agung priode also has deep luk like the Pengging keris.
So, thanks a lot for your expertise

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Mans, although you were addressing Pak Ganja in your most recent post, it is obvious that at least some of my remarks were in your mind, thus, although you did not deign to address your comments to me, I have no hesitation in addressing my comments to you.

When we give an opinion on anything, we need to be able to defend that opinion.

If the opinion cannot be defended, it is merely empty words.

When we give an opinion on the tangguh of a keris, we need to be able provide a solid argument in respect of exactly why we believe the keris to be one tangguh, rather than another.As you so correctly point out, those who deal seriously and conscientiously in keris knowledge may not regard any elements of the keris in a trifling manner.

I agree with you, it is possible to guess at a tangguh from a picture of a keris.

It is even possible to guess at a tangguh when all we see is the top of the gonjo with the keris still in the wrongko.

It is possible to guess at the tangguh of a keris that previously occupied a wrongko.

It is possible to guess at the tangguh of a keris with our eyes shut, and relying only on feel.

However, it is not possible to provide a defensible opinion in respect of the tangguh of a keris, unless we handle the keris.Just as it is not possible to learn tangguh from pictures.

We should remember that a guess is not an opinion, and the meaning of "tangguh" when applied to the keris does carry the sense of "opinion", not "guess".

In private correspondence between friends, it may be quite legitimate to venture an opinion on the tangguh of a keris, based only on a photograph.

However, in a public forum I consider it irresponsible to provide opinions of tangguh which are based on only photographs.

Pak Mans, your level of keris knowledge and understanding is clearly high, as is the knowledge and understanding of Pak Ganja. However. many people who read and contribute to this forum do not have similar levels of knowledge, most especially in respect of tangguh. Providing guesses at tangguh, rather than defensible opinions can do irreparable damage to the potential of these people to learn.

I would ask you to consider this example:-

if we go to the doctor with some illness, that doctor , if he is at all competent, will use all means at his disposal to diagnose the illness before he provides an opinion on exactly what the illness is. He does this because apart from the duty of care he has to his patient, he knows that if he is wrong, and cannot defend the opinion he provided, he could face severe consequences.

If the doctor has vast experience, he may venture an opinion in respect of some illnesses upon the basis of the patient's description of the problem, and what can be seen.In some instances, this could even be done without the patient being present.

However, if a lay person, lacking medical experience observed this "arms length" diagnosis, that lay person could well come to believe that competent diagnoses could be made in all cases in the absence of the patient.


Compare this example to the practice of providing guesses at the tangguh of keris, based upon a photographic image of that keris.

I feel that it may be legitimate practice to publish a photograph of a keris which one has handled, and provide an opinion on the tangguh of that keris, together with the reasons which have helped in the formation of that opinion. This could be of value and could assist in the increase of knowledge of those who have not had the benefit of close personal experience in gaining a knowledge of tangguh.

However, I also feel that to provide "guesses" at the tangguh of a keris which has not been handled , and for which it is impossible to give a supported opinion , is at best less than wise, and at worst misleading and destructive.

What I have written above is my opinion, and as always I acknowledge that the opinions of others may vary from my own. I have no wish to impose my opinions upon the actions of other people, all I ask is that what I put forward be considered, together with the possible implications flowing from continuance of providing "guesses" at tangguh, rather than supportable opinions, and taking into account that no serious student of the keris regards anything to do with the keris in a trifling manner.

[David]

Thank you Alan. Those are some of the most sensible and reasonable words i have read on these forums in respect to tangguh.

[drdavid]

As a very novice keris appreciator I thank you Alan for your insights into this difficult area and your very nice analogy ( I am an experienced doctor and your comments ring quite true ).
cheers
DrD

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Alan,

enlighting!!!

Usman

[Mans]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Pak Mans, although you were addressing Pak Ganja in your most recent post, it is obvious that at least some of my remarks were in your mind, thus, although you did not deign to address your comments to me, I have no hesitation in addressing my comments to you.
.................

Hi Pak Alan

Sorry if you feel that my latest posted looks like pointed to you, whereas not sure like that. Also sorry if you feel so sensitive with my opinion. I just posted some my trifling opinion. And sometimes the joke can make a misunderstanding if not at the right places we talk about.... especially if talking about the cultures, countries or another thing which have sensitive sense on forum

Back to the Tangguh of a keris, it’s just like an estimation of period. As Pak Ganja said that the meaning of tangguh is guessing (although the true meaning is more than just guessing .... ). So any argument are welcome for everyone who think has experiences and need to learn about the keris. And so that some forumities also ever asked more detail pictures to give their opinion. What for ? I think to make sure about the tangguh if we talk about the tangguh of a keris, did it ? And I’m sure that you know more about this topic because you has high level experiences about the keris too

So, I do apreciate with all of your expertises in this forum. And hope every forumities who want to learn the keris can get the knowledge by reading the opinion and seeing the photographs. And that is one of the purpose to posted some keris pictures on the threads, did it ? And I always hope that my english will be better and better for further in order to can give more clear opinion and know the meaning of other opinion


Regards,
Manshur Hidayat

[A. G. Maisey]

G'day Pak Manshur,

Whether or not your previous remarks were made after taking account of what I had previously posted is not material to my position on this matter.

Similarly, I must correct you in your misunderstanding of my emotional state:- I am not in the least sensitive in respect of anything you have written.

You have made your previous posts in good faith, following a direction that to you appears to be a valid one, however, an analysis of the factors involved in providing a valid opinion on tangguh will clearly demonstrate that such an opinion cannot be formed in the absence of the physical presence of the keris.

I do understand the meaning of the word tangguh. Yes, it can be taken to mean an estimate, it can also be intended to mean an opinion. It can never mean a guess.

An estimate as applicable to the practice of tangguh can be taken to carry the meaning of an approximation based upon probabilities.

An opinion as applicable to the practice of tangguh can be taken to have a similar meaning.It could be deemed to carry the meaning of a judgement based upon grounds that are insufficient for certainty.

An opinion may be either an informed opinion, or an uninformed opinion.

An uninformed opinion is based on notions carried in one's own mind, and by nature is subjective.

An informed opinion is based on objective factors and should be able to be defended, contrary to the case with an uninformed opinion, which cannot be defended.

I am certain that you have been party to a great many discussions in respect of tangguh. What happens at these discussions? Do the participants attempt to support their opinion as to which tangguh may be applied to the keris in question, or do they simply provide an opinion with no reasons? More often than not, concensus of opinion will be reached amongst the participants in the discussion, and that concensus will be formed because of the arguments put by the participants in the discussion. Those arguments will be based on the observable characteristics of the keris.

Thus, the final concensus of opinion will be based on objective factors, it will be defensible, and as such it becomes an informed opinion.

The appraisal of a keris in order to determine tangguh is not a guess, nor is it an estimate, it is a process whereby an informed, defensible opinion is formed.

It is impossible to form such an opinion in the absence of the physical presence of the keris.

What is possible from a good photograph of a keris is to use the image as an example of some of the features which may be found in a keris of a particular tangguh.

For instance, a photograph of a keris which bore characteristics of the Mataram Sultan Agung tangguh could be published along with a question from its owner asking what tangguh was applicable.

For anybody to provide the opinion that it was a keris of Mataram Sultan Agung tangguh would be absolutely and totally irresponsible, because this opinion could not be defended.

However, it would be acceptable to provide an opinion which identified certain features of the keris and the information that these features appeared to be consistent with a tangguh of Mataram, Sultan Agung.

As an example how such an opinion could be worded:-

" this keris could possibly be tangguh Mataram, Sultan Agung:- the blumbangan is squarish, the overall blade form is consistent with this tangguh, and the ron dha is the correct form for Mataram Sultan Agung; based upon the limited information available, I believe that upon close examination, this keris could be given the tangguh of Mataram, Sultan Agung"

Do you see the difference?

It is a qualified opinion. It says "yes, there is a possibility that this Mataram SA"

It does not say "yes, this keris is Mataram SA."

It is not a defensible opinion, it is conjecture, based on limited information.

Tangguh cannot be learnt from pictures, nor can it be applied from pictures. Responsible appraisal of a keris can only be carried out with the keris in one's hand.

I can see no objection to providing qualified opinions on the tangguh of a keris, and in fact, some of the opinions that have already been supplied have been qualified, not clearly perhaps, but the qualification has been there.

But I cannot endorse an approach that sets out to give a firm opinion on a tangguh in the absence of evidence which is insufficient to support that opinion.

Put simply:- we cannot just say:-" This is tangguh such and such"--- we need to give the reasons why we think it is tangguh such and such; we must support our opinion; nobody can support a tangguh opinion based on only a photograph.

Pak Manshur, I do appreciate that you are working in a language that is not your own, and I complement you upon the way in which you handle English. However, I would ask you to bear in mind that in written communication we must make clear those things which in face to face communication are obvious. In face to face communication we can easily differentiate between a casual guess and an opinion which has taken some time and effort to form. We cannot do this as easily in written communication. Many people with only the slightest understanding of tangguh read the opinions placed in this discussion group.If they see an opinion placed by somebody who is Javanese, and who appears to know something about keris, then that opinion, for those people, could well become an absolute truth. However, any opinion formed on the basis of a photograph, in respect of tangguh , can only be regarded as a casual guess. This can be very misleading for people with a lesser understanding of tangguh than you yourself have.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have heard the joking comment in Jawa that tangguh was invented to give men something to talk about.

Dear Alan, Mans, and All,
Of course, I must be responsible with everything I did in this forum. if I didn't mention the things what you need in this thread (the details of keris, and so on), it was mainly a matter of difficulty to communicate the idea in English, to you all. Although not only that.

I am not joking with tangguh, though I only have a short experience in "loving" the keris world. Because, for me now, tangguh is one of the most important to learn to be able to appreciate the beauty of kerises. Really. What happened if I only know dhapur, and then suddenly faced with ten kerises, all of them bearing dhapur of tilamupih (straight), but in 10 different style, different tangguh?

Actually, the same question emerged in my mind when I was reading the Tammens' book (De Kris, Magic Relic of old Indonesia) a couple of years ago. I said, hey, how come? He presented in 157 pages (from page 114 to 271) pictures (only of course) of 79 kerises, tombaks and wedung -- all with tangguh -- but no details on why he presented this as tangguh this and that...

Some of them, are not correct, although mostly "correct". One of the not correct one is: "keris majapahit" that is actually "old small keris for offering" (which often erroneously called too as 'keris pichit' in Malay). Did I think Tammens was irresponsible?

I never put my belief in reading or hearing anything from everyone -- taken for granted. I always preserve my belief, and then, proof myself which is actually the truth. By experiencing, seeing the real thing. Was Tammens' error destruct my knowledge? Of course not. Tammens is one of my respected "teacher", although only from his book. And also, from my Javanese teacher, to know the nuance behind the objective thing. Not just kerises.

Anyway, I would ask you apology if there was any mistake from me that you considered to be irresponsible and destructive. Of course that was not my intention to. What was in my mind that, this is a "warung kopi", and not an academic forum. Although, of course, I must be responsible in whatever I did in this non academic forum.

Thank you Alan, and all. I agree with you, that it is impossible to estimate accurately the tangguh, in absence the kerises...

Ganjawulung

[A. G. Maisey]

Ganja, nothing I have written has been intended as targetted criticism: it has been intended as an attempt to try to bring discussion of tangguh to a level and format that can operate from photographs and written communication, and assist, rather than hinder, the increase of knowledge for people who know almost nothing about tangguh.

Irresponsible and destructive actions can probably only be considered to be this when they are carried out with irresponsible and destructive intent.

Where the intent is absent, although the end result may be destruction, irresponsibility cannot be claimed.

Since in this matter there can be no charge of irresponsibility levelled, there is clearly no call for any apologies to be made.

Now that we all seem to travelling in the same direction, I feel that the way is open to continue to discuss tangguh, but using the approach of qualifying our opinions, rather than phasing them in absolute terms.

Regarding Mr. Tammens and his determinations in respect of tangguh. Some years ago I had a long and informative discussion with a highly respected Dutch keris authority and author about Mr. Tammens and tangguh. I was told that if questioned as to the reasons why a particular keris was this tangguh, or that tangguh, Mr. Tammens would not give an explanation of the indicators that permitted him to classify the keris, but simply say it was this tangguh because it had the characteristics of this tangguh. It would appear that Mr. Tammens' principal teacher was an ex-patriot Javanese gentleman, so perhaps this overaching approach is the way in which Mr. Tammens was taught, rather than the analytical approach, which is the way I was taught. In any case, when I explained and demonstrated to the Dutch author the way in which we can break the characteristics of a blade down into components, and even sub-components, and measure these components against a pre-determined standard it became very clear to him exactly how an ahli keris will determine the tangguh of a blade. I must admit, many of the people I have known who will give an opinion on tangguh do not consciously apply this same analytical approach, but when questioned, they will give answers that can be analytically aligned with the predetermined standards that I was taught.

After Mr. Tammens published his first volume, I heard an amusing story in Solo. It seems that one particular keris orientated Solonese gentleman was so incensed at what he considered to be the inaccurate information in Mr. Tammens' book, that he took it upon himself to visit Mr. Tammens in an attempt to set the record straight. I cannot vouch for this story:- it is Solo gossip, and we know what that can be like.

Ganja, when you say this is not an academic forum, I for one would very much like to believe that you are correct. We have seen the academic approach to this type of subject, and since academia does have a very prominent element of self advancement and reputation building, it can be quite destructive to goodwill and a free exchange of information and ideas. Personally, I would prefer to see us all stay friendly and stupid, rather than enlightened, if enlightenment should come at the cost of goodwill.Yeah, we're all just sitting around in the warung, pretty relaxed, nursing our cups of coffee, and swapping info back and forth. Nothing to get uptight about.But let's try to qualify those opinions about which we cannot be too certain.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Alan & all kerislovers,

I do ask you, all, apology if there were short and unexpalined comments of mine which could damage the foundation of keris knowledge, especially for the "beginner"

I do hope to all readers, if any question mark in mind to write those questions in this lovely "warung kopi" forum. Seemingly, ghost readers are much much much more than talkactive members. By doing this, at least, we can repair or control the possible damage. So, the sharing of responsibility not only on the writer's shoulder but also on the reader's shoulder are crucial and important.

Usman

[A. G. Maisey]

I could not agree more Usman.

I would dearly love to see more of the people whom I know to read the posts to this little warung contribute directly to it by posting comments and questions.

[David]

There are no stupid questions my friends and i would also like to encourage my fellow forumites to step up and ask when statements are unqualified or not completely clear to them. The study of keris is deep and complex and still holds much controversy and mystery. Tangguh may be one of it's most misunderstood components and is often misapplied to keris that were never intended to be judged by the system.
I would like to thank all of you for keeping this discussion civil and friendly. While i agree that this is not an academic forum i would still like to see the quality of the information passed on here to remain at a high level of detail and accuracy, so i do think it is important that we all try to qualify and back up our statements as best we can. It is also OK to throw out completely unsupportable ideas and theories as long as we identify them as such. Nothing wrong with stirring the pot every now and then to see what might rise to the surface. This type of loose and relaxed exchange of ideas can often lead to more solid understandings, sometimes quite by accident. As has already been stated, there are many new keris collectors out there thirsting for knowledge. There has also obviously been quite a lot of misinformation passed around about the keris over the years. While not an academic forum, i still think it is our responsibility to the keris community to do our best to foster accurate information and break down the misconceptions that have taken root over the years.

[Mans]

Hi dear all....
I think everyone who posted in this thread are right and gave much contribution to talking about the keris. All opinions gave good contribution to learning the keris . Everyone have own argumentation which thing right by them self or communities, also have own culture which different of each other, have different level of English language... etc, which perhaps can make some misunderstanding when write some opinion. And of course, every readers (active or not) can take a conclusion by them self too.. That because the keris sometimes feel so subjective. But these all shown that the keris is unique, mysterious, and always interesting to discuss, right ?

So, I do appreciate that Vikingsword forum gave special space of discussion for the keris by opening the "Warung Kopi" (old speeling = Waroeng Kopi )

And at Waroeng Kopi, sometimes peoples talking about some good idea, good topic, but sometimes also happen some little disputes. And some time feel hard to keep stay at the center. But if any little disputes, I'm sure that everyone didn't mean it So... I think the discussion can be continued by talking about the keris. I'm not a moderator, but if the topic of "Pics: Snake-like Curves" think enough, we can opening a new thread. Did this thread had demostrated the Tosan Aji from Pengging era which has luk like a snake (sarpa lumampah), the Daleman Sumenep keris which also has luk like a Pengging keris, and keris Segaluh which has good pamor and iron work... ? Or still any opinion or question regarding the keris which has luk like a snake

I just hope that every keris lovers (new comers or who think they has good experiences) can learn much and more knowledge regarding the keris from this Waroeng...

Regards,
Manshur HIDAYAT.

[kai]

I would dearly love to see more of the people whom I know to read the posts to this little warung contribute directly to it by posting comments and questions.

While I often don't have to add anything to the ongoing discussions, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank those experienced members who share their knowledge as well as opinions/estimates/best guesses/etc. I especially appreciate that more people have already taken the time to detail (some of) the reasons on which their conclusions have been based. Thanks for highlighting this very important point, Alan!

I also welcome the renewed interest/activity for keris Jawa very much even if these are not the focus of my current personal interest - keep it coming! No need to apologize for any of those valuable recent contributions/pics!

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Pak Manshur,

"Warung Kopi" (old speeling = Waroeng Kopi )

Wasn't the old (Dutch) transliteration kinda outlawed in Indonesia after the independence?

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

No, not really outlawed.

I think it was 1972 when Dutch spellings were replaced by English spellings, but there are a lot of problems with Javanese spellings.Using a modern keyboard, for instance the dotted "A" which has a sound like "O" but further back in the mouth, not at the front of the mouth. The word "ganja" is correctly spelt as "ganja",but with dots over the "A"'s---but you cannot put those dots there with a keyboard, so they become understood.

And it is pronounced like "gonjo", which means that probably most people spell it this way.

Doesn't stop with little things either---major towns and cities can be seen to be spelt in the old way, or the new way.

Its probably best not to get too tied up with spellings in Javanese, it is really a spoken language, and the speakers of it will often change spellings as well as pronunciations to suit themselves. The main thing is that the message be understood.

[Mans]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Pak Manshur,
Wasn't the old (Dutch) transliteration kinda outlawed in Indonesia after the independence?

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai ,
Yes right, but sSome old spelling (like U = OE) still used outside the formal writting, especially to talking about the old, antique object or past period, etc... Alan had explained regaring EYD (Ejaan Yang Diperbarui / new spelling of grammar).

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Manshur,

Yes, it is true that here we communicate in different levels of English, and this can lead to some confusion.

Because of this I will make this post as simple as I am able.

Cultural differences can cause people from different cultures to identify discussion at different levels as a "dispute". Speaking for myself, I cannot find any evidence of any dispute in any recent posts to this discussion group. All I can identify is civil discussion.

Pak Manshur, you have posed this question:-

" Did this thread had demostrated the Tosan Aji from Pengging era which has luk like a snake (sarpa lumampah), the Daleman Sumenep keris which also has luk like a Pengging keris, and keris Segaluh which has good pamor and iron work... ? "

Objective evaluation will show that neither of these things have been demonstrated.

What has been demonstrated is this:-

Pengging
In the opinion of some people, the form of luk found in tosan aji which could perhaps be classified as tangguh Pengging , does have the form shown in the photos that were posted.
This is a qualified statement.
Because of the high level of disagreement as to the exact form of a Pengging keris it is not possible to make a definitive statement in respect of the luk form.

Segaluh
Photos of a keris identified by the owner as tangguh Segaluh have been shown. Based upon what can be seen in these photos, it is probable that the pamor execution is competent, as is the execution of the iron work.
This is a qualified statement.
We cannot be positive that the keris is tangguh Segaluh, and we cannot be positive as to the quality of the material and the way in which it has been worked, because we can only see a picture of the keris. To be positive about these things we need to handle the keris.
Even if we handle the keris, and we agree that it is tangguh Segaluh, and we do determine that quality of both pamor and iron work is superior, we can only affix that opinion to the keris being examined, we cannot extend that opinion to any other keris of tangguh Segaluh.

However, in respect of the keris shown as a possible Daleman Sumenep you made the following statement:-
And regaring my keris which has luk rengkol, this can be a Daleman Sumenep keris which estimated about 18th century.
This is a qualified statement.
By use of the the word "can", an element of doubt has been introduced. It "can" be Daleman Sumenep; it can also be something else.

This demonstrates exactly the point I have been trying to make:-

in discussion of tangguh carried out in writing, and using photographs, we cannot be definite in our opinions; our opinions must be qualified, in other words, the opinion when it is based on words or pictures must leave room for doubt.

When the keris is in one's possession, it would be permissable to state the tangguh, and anything else about the keris as one's opinion:- the statement is qualified by identifying the statement as opinion.

Opinion must not be presented as a statement of fact.

Pak Manshur, please do not regard what I have written as being in the nature of a dispute. The idea of "dispute" carries an element of heat, and an element of contention.There is no heat in my writing, and I am not in contention with you. I am discussing calmly and in a relaxed fashion a matter that must be clarified prior to any sensible discussion of tangguh being able to take place.

[ganjawulung]

Dear Alan, Mans, and All,

This is my sharing of the pictures I posted, for the time being. I will complete my responsibility later, after finishing my other business. This assumption of tangguh Segaluh, based on opinion which I got from such source as: the late Mr Bambang Harsrinuksmo (once he saw this blade), and also in some occasion with Mr Haryono Guritno and even my other colleague of keris connoisseurs in Solo and Yogyakarta.

The bird eye view to recognize that the keris bears tangguh Segaluh, is the "protruding posture of the gandhik", sometimes extremely protruding. And Segaluh kerises is more protruding than any other styles of keris.

Also from bird eye view, if the segaluh keris with luks, never with "rengkol luk" (wavy luk). But with "luk kembo". Kembo means a kind of "fed up", or "lazy movement". Or say it, a snake in a lazy movement.

At this time being, I don't want to pose you the material argument. Otherwise you see it in your hand. Hopefully this 'first responsibility' will help your discussion. Believe me, I have no intention to cheat everybody. Or intent anyone to "buy this blade". Oh, no. This keris will be here for long, long, long time in the future..

Regards,
Ganjawulung (or some other spelling, Gonjawulung, or Gonjowulung. Whatever)

[A. G. Maisey]

Ganja, what you have posted here is perfect for a post on tangguh.

You have effectively said:-

in the opinion of Bambang Harsinuksmo this keris is tangguh Segaluh.

I think you have also said:-

in my opinion this keris is tangguh Segaluh and I base this opinion on information obtained from Haryono Haryoguritno and other people with more knowledge of keris than I have.

Nobody could possibly object to this.

Incidentally, from what I can see in the pic, I'd call it Segaluh too, but if we are trying to create a format for future use, we must remain consistent.

[A. G. Maisey]

I've thought long and hard about this, but I've finally decided to do it anyway.

I do not agree with the posting of photographs of keris which I identify as a part of my collection. As a general rule I will only post a photograph of something from my personal collection when I decide that I want to sell it.

The keris shown in this post is one from my personal collection, and I have no intention of offering it for sale. I have adjusted the photograph so that all you should be able to see is a silhouette of the keris.

This keris was given the tangguh of Pengging by two of the most experienced ahli keris I know, one of whom was also a very well known empu.

It also displays all the features of a Pengging keris as I have shown in my earlier post.

I am not claiming that it is Pengging, but the weight of opinion available to me seems to indicate that most experienced people would regard this keris as tangguh Pengging.

Compare this form with the form already claimed as representing Pengging. They are very dissimilar.

I do not claim that this keris is representative of Pengging, and the tombak already shown is not representative of Pengging.

What I do claim is that there can be significant disagreement as to exactly what Pengging tosan aji looks like.

This is the reason why it is always desireable to qualify opinions on tangguh.

[cahaya]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

....

The keris shown in this post is one from my personal collection, and I have no intention of offering it for sale. I have adjusted the photograph so that all you should be able to see is a silhouette of the keris.

Hai Mr Alan G M /Bapak Alan GM

can you take the close up of 'sor-soran' from your keris, so we can enjoy to see your keris collection too.

regards
cahaya

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm sorry Cahaya, no.

As I have already stated, I do not agree with the practice of showing keris in a personal collection on a public website.

I have intentionally made this keris very dark so only the outline can be seen, not the keris itself.

I am not holding an exhibition of my collection, which would be something in conflict with my personal standards and system of values,I am only showing an outline for comparative purposes.

[Sepang]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I'm sorry Cahaya, no.

As I have already stated, I do not agree with the practice of showing keris in a personal collection on a public website.

I have intentionally made this keris very dark so only the outline can be seen, not the keris itself.

I am not holding an exhibition of my collection, which would be something in conflict with my personal standards and system of values,I am only showing an outline for comparative purposes.

hi.
seems like a madiun keris. shown by the pucuk (tips), luk style and aslant of kembang kacang. the ganja not simetris. longer than bottom of the blade. I supposed that the gonjo was replaced or revisioned ?

sepang.

[A. G. Maisey]

No, it does not bear the characteristics of a Madiun blade, the gonjo is original, however the buntut urang is eroded, as is the wadidang ; if the line of the gonjo and wadidang are extended to their original positions, this line will be seen to be quite long.It is not a high quality blade, but a very ordinary example, and in no respect could it be considered a work of art.The pesi is almost completely gone, and has been replaced with a metal cone held in place with jabung.

As I have already stated, in the opinion of two highly respected ahli keris, one of whom is an empu, now retired, this blade can be classified as Pengging.

It also bears the characteristics of a Pengging blade according to information gathered from Empu Suparman Supowijaya, and as confirmed in conversation with a number of other ahli keris, collectors, and dealers over a 20 year period.

I have provided this silhouette purely for comparative purposes:- a number opinions which must be respected classify this as Pengging, but it's form is nothing at all like the Pengging tosan aji that has already been shown.

I am positive that the attribution of Pengging given to the previously shown tosan aji has not been given lightly, and that a number of people would have this same opinion; in fact, I have another blade, a current era production, that is supposedly a copy of a Pengging blade, and the silhouette of this blade would agree with the silhouette of the previously shown tosan aji which has been identified as Pengging.

Then I have a third blade which is completely different from these other two that was given the tangguh of Pengging by two highly respected ahli keris from Jogjakarta.

The point I am trying to make is this:- Pengging is a very scarce tangguh, and there are clearly a number of opinions as to exactly what characteristics are possessed by a keris of tangguh Pengging.

We would not have the same problem with Mataram Sultan Agung, or with Surakarta, or with Segaluh, or with many other tangguhs, but Pengging is a very, very problematical tangguh.As a tangguh which attracts widely varying opinions it has been an excellent example to make my case that in discussion of tangguh, especially when photographs are being relied upon, all opinions must be qualified.

[cahaya]

Hai all

No body perfect (100%) prof,doctor,scientist, could be wrong,
including in 'Keris world' --- Mpu can do something wrong to in Nangguh.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

dear All Kerislovers,

If you have been in Merapi mountain, perhaps you would
realize, coincidently, there are 2 versions in any aspect there.
It is because Merapi mountain and surrounding area have important role in Javanese civilization.

So, if we talk about pengging? Which pengging? during Mataram Hindhu or Mataram Islam. If during Mataram Hindhu, so the prominent Empu is Mpu Ramadhi. If the scope of discussion is Mataram Islam, so different empus will be mentioned.

Perhaps, there are 2 kind of pengging which have obvious differentiation, yupe, because, they came from far different era. But, All are true penggings

Usman

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Cahaya, anybody can be wrong.

In fact everybody could be wrong.

The very fact that tangguh involves opinion , and not fact, means that any opinion can be given. It does not need to be right, or wrong, it only needs to be accepted. In order to have it accepted, it needs to be supported, but even if it is supported, it still does not mean that it right. For an opinion to be "right", it would first be necessary to quantify exactly what constitutes "right" in respect of any tangguh. The very nature of tangguh precludes such a factual approach. The best that can be hoped for is concensus, or perhaps only majority agreement.Certainly we can never hope for something as absolute as "right".

However, this is not about right and wrong.

It is about a system of classification which depends upon the comparison of certain physical characteristics in a keris, with accepted characteristics for a particular classification, or tangguh.

The person or persons carrying out the comparison forms an opinion as to whether or not the observed characteristics coincide with the accepted characteristics to a sufficient degree to assign a particular tangguh to a keris, thus placing it within that classification.

The problems arise when there is not universal agreement on exactly what the characteristics are for a particular classification, or tangguh.

We have just seen Sepang suggest that the silhouette which I posted is possibly Madiun. Sepang has been able to deduce this from only the silhouette. Just the outline of the blade.

I have already provided the information that the characteristics of the keris in the silhouette are the same as those listed in a previous post. Please read those characteristics listed in the previous post and consider for one moment if these are the accepted characteristics for a keris of tangguh Madiun.

This little exercise has provided a vivid example of just how silly the tangguh game can get.

It ought not to be silly. It is a serious branch of keris study, and is vital to an understanding of the Javanese keris, most particularly so in respect of value. If one fails to understand tangguh one can wind up losing big-time when buying.

We have already agreed that it is not possible to learn tangguh from pictures. It would seem that at this point nobody is prepared to assert that it is possible to learn tangguh from pictures.

I maintain that it is not possible to give other than a qualified opinion as to the tangguh of any keris from a picture.

I further suggest that where a picture of an example of any tangguh be given, that it be clearly stated that the claimed tangguh assigned to the keris is an opinion, either the opinion of the owner of the keris, or the opinion of a person or persons known to the owner.

If this practice is followed, it should lessen considerably the degree of misunderstanding in respect of tangguh , which currently appears to exist amongst those people who have not had the benefit of close and intense personal instruction in the practice of tangguh.

Opinions should not be presented as fact.